Last week, I sat down with the political scientist Charles Murray for a conversation about his excellent new book. This one is a departure for Charles. Rather than examining large-scale social structure, demographic change, or genetics, Taking Religion Seriously takes up metaphysics and spiritual experience. It’s a somewhat startling development for a hard-nosed social scientist like Charles, and I wanted to find out what led him down this avenue of inquiry.
I begin with a (constructively) critical review of Charles’s new book as a way to introduce this late turn to spiritual matters. He’s started to consider the possibility of a divine creator’s hand in everything from the big bang to the emergence of human intelligence. Though Charles isn’t naturally disposed to spirituality, he had his own kind of “road to Damascus” moment that led him to more deeply investigate the role of religion and religious experience. He’s even found himself seriously considering ideas like life after death! Which is not to say that he’s abandoned science—rather, he’s become more interested in science’s limitations. I tell Charles about my own conversion experience that led to a period of deep Christian faith, and the tragedy that led to my break from the church.
0:00 Charles’s new book, Taking Religious Seriously
8:31 Why Charles finds the idea of divine creation plausible
13:54 Charles’s “road to Damascus” moment
19:25 The appeal of Christianity
24:51 The evidence for life after death
31:38 Charles: “The relative positions of science and religion have flipped”
36:42 The trouble with scientism
40:17 Glenn’s steps toward and away from religion
51:04 Was The Bell Curve putting making a deterministic argument?
Recorded November 4, 2025
Links and Readings
Charles’s new book, Taking Religious Seriously
Charles’s book, Losing Ground: American Social Policy, 1950-1980
Richard Herrnstein and Charles’s book, The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life
Charles’s book, Human Diversity: The Biology of Gender, Race, and Class
Charles’s book, Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010
Martin Rees’s book, Just Six Numbers: The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe
James Q. Wilson’s book, The Moral Sense
C.S. Lewis’s book, Mere Christianity
Raymond Moody’s book, Life after Life: A Groundbreaking Exploration of Near-Death Experiences and the Transformative Insights into the Afterlife, Backed by Scientific Study and Personal Testimonies
Steven Pinker’s book, The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature
