2020 epidemic mild? Compared to what? The 2021 epidemic? Are you fucking crazy? Here is a mandate for you. If you are not vaccinated don't show up at a hospital looking for a ventilator. Stay home and drop dead.
Dear user. This is Mr. Hepworth’s coroner. He took your advice and dropped dead. In his casket are three ventilators just in case he catches Covid on his journey between Earth and Heaven.
I just cannot understand any version of this sort of sentiment. For all the self-inflicted harms that we see in hospitals, for all the patients that have destroyed their lives (and the lives of others) that we welcome with open arms and take care of like they were our own family, for all that our medical oaths are worth...this is the line?
If someone hasn't gotten an injected with an experimental new technology with known and unknown side effects, some serious, that seems to provide some modest protection against a disease that mostly affects older and intrinsically unhealthy people...this is where the line is? Anyone on the wrong side of the line we're not supposed to help?
Not a Trump voter, but I did have an older patient with a massive stroke shortly after receiving one of the early shots, and the data on these shots is scary.
Correlation does not imply causation. The J&J vaccine was halted due to clotting concern. AstraZeneca vaccine was not used in the US. Strokes and clotting disorders are also complications of the COVID virus itself.
Norway study no increased risk of stroke of 1st 2nd and 3rd vaccination
If I understand correctly, your point here is that a similar vaccine was canceled for having side effects, but it is...unreasonable to worry about this one having side effects? Again, even taking all your premises as fact, the conclusion doesn’t follow at all. One study showing the absence of one side effect is not that reassuring. Many side effects take years to be discovered even in the absence of any obvious foul play by the drug companies. The myocarditis alone would have gotten any vaccine pulled from development in the pre-COVID era. Even the subjective experience of getting one of these shots (I’ve had three) is worse than any other vaccine I’ve ever seen.
And even if one takes that absolute most charitable view of COVID vaccination, the idea that refusing to get it is irrational is unsupported. Normal vaccines are in development for many years before they’re available to the general public. This was an entirely new technology, not a slight tweak of last year’s flu vaccine.
And even if it were a slight tweak of an existing safe product, many patients refuse to get immunizations of all sorts, and that decision has no effect whatsoever on whether we offer them medical treatment, including for the illness that was theoretically preventable. They also refuse all sorts of other medical interventions, and make all sorts of other decisions that lead to negative health outcomes. The argument that I’m responding to is totally off the deep end of medical ethics. As far as I know, no serious person made any such argument about any health condition before COVID-19. Refusing medical treatment to someone on the sole basis of one small and totally reasonable health decision they made is madness.
The older person you describe had the stroke “shortly”, not years, after receiving a COVID vaccine. I cited one study, there were many others looking into stroke events after vaccination and not finding an increase.
Regarding myocarditis, a study of 43 million people in the UK noted a higher number of cases of myocarditis with COVID itself compared to myocarditis with vaccination.
People are free to refuse vaccination. They are free to take their own personal risk. The argument is over whether during the midst of a pandemic, an unvaccinated person can put others at risk.
Edit to add:
There are pediatricians who refused to see children whose parents don’t allow routine childhood vaccinations. In part, to spare immunocompromised children from the risk of infection.
They believe the RFK Jr nonsense. Measles was almost wiped out in the United States, then the anti-vaxxer nonsense rose up. In Samoa measles vaccine skepticism resulted in deaths of children.
RFK often quotes a paper by Anthony Fauci that notes that most deaths during the Spanish flu epidemic was caused by bacterial pneumonia. He suggests that vaccines would not have helped during that epidemic. This nonsense ignores the fact that the virus weakened the lungs of those who died. A vaccine would have prevented the virus from weakening the lungs. His solution would be to wait and treat the pneumonia with antibiotics. He wants Big Pharma to make money off antibiotics not vaccines.
Another lunacy is RFK blaming the Spanish flu on a Kansas lab experimenting with bacterial meningitis. He confuses a bacteria with a virus.
2020 epidemic mild? Compared to what? The 2021 epidemic? Are you fucking crazy? Here is a mandate for you. If you are not vaccinated don't show up at a hospital looking for a ventilator. Stay home and drop dead.
Dear user. This is Mr. Hepworth’s coroner. He took your advice and dropped dead. In his casket are three ventilators just in case he catches Covid on his journey between Earth and Heaven.
I just cannot understand any version of this sort of sentiment. For all the self-inflicted harms that we see in hospitals, for all the patients that have destroyed their lives (and the lives of others) that we welcome with open arms and take care of like they were our own family, for all that our medical oaths are worth...this is the line?
If someone hasn't gotten an injected with an experimental new technology with known and unknown side effects, some serious, that seems to provide some modest protection against a disease that mostly affects older and intrinsically unhealthy people...this is where the line is? Anyone on the wrong side of the line we're not supposed to help?
I just don't get that argument.
Side effects my ass. You Trump cult followers are looking for a fight. Any fight.
Not a Trump voter, but I did have an older patient with a massive stroke shortly after receiving one of the early shots, and the data on these shots is scary.
Correlation does not imply causation. The J&J vaccine was halted due to clotting concern. AstraZeneca vaccine was not used in the US. Strokes and clotting disorders are also complications of the COVID virus itself.
Norway study no increased risk of stroke of 1st 2nd and 3rd vaccination
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.122.040430
Strokes are not uncommon in the elderly especially when there are risk factors like diabetes, hypertension, obesity, or sleep apnea.
The J&J vaccine was halted.
If I understand correctly, your point here is that a similar vaccine was canceled for having side effects, but it is...unreasonable to worry about this one having side effects? Again, even taking all your premises as fact, the conclusion doesn’t follow at all. One study showing the absence of one side effect is not that reassuring. Many side effects take years to be discovered even in the absence of any obvious foul play by the drug companies. The myocarditis alone would have gotten any vaccine pulled from development in the pre-COVID era. Even the subjective experience of getting one of these shots (I’ve had three) is worse than any other vaccine I’ve ever seen.
And even if one takes that absolute most charitable view of COVID vaccination, the idea that refusing to get it is irrational is unsupported. Normal vaccines are in development for many years before they’re available to the general public. This was an entirely new technology, not a slight tweak of last year’s flu vaccine.
And even if it were a slight tweak of an existing safe product, many patients refuse to get immunizations of all sorts, and that decision has no effect whatsoever on whether we offer them medical treatment, including for the illness that was theoretically preventable. They also refuse all sorts of other medical interventions, and make all sorts of other decisions that lead to negative health outcomes. The argument that I’m responding to is totally off the deep end of medical ethics. As far as I know, no serious person made any such argument about any health condition before COVID-19. Refusing medical treatment to someone on the sole basis of one small and totally reasonable health decision they made is madness.
The older person you describe had the stroke “shortly”, not years, after receiving a COVID vaccine. I cited one study, there were many others looking into stroke events after vaccination and not finding an increase.
Regarding myocarditis, a study of 43 million people in the UK noted a higher number of cases of myocarditis with COVID itself compared to myocarditis with vaccination.
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines
I have had three Moderna vaccines with no issues.
People are free to refuse vaccination. They are free to take their own personal risk. The argument is over whether during the midst of a pandemic, an unvaccinated person can put others at risk.
Edit to add:
There are pediatricians who refused to see children whose parents don’t allow routine childhood vaccinations. In part, to spare immunocompromised children from the risk of infection.
They believe the RFK Jr nonsense. Measles was almost wiped out in the United States, then the anti-vaxxer nonsense rose up. In Samoa measles vaccine skepticism resulted in deaths of children.
RFK often quotes a paper by Anthony Fauci that notes that most deaths during the Spanish flu epidemic was caused by bacterial pneumonia. He suggests that vaccines would not have helped during that epidemic. This nonsense ignores the fact that the virus weakened the lungs of those who died. A vaccine would have prevented the virus from weakening the lungs. His solution would be to wait and treat the pneumonia with antibiotics. He wants Big Pharma to make money off antibiotics not vaccines.
Another lunacy is RFK blaming the Spanish flu on a Kansas lab experimenting with bacterial meningitis. He confuses a bacteria with a virus.
https://youtu.be/rNA1Y3qTpuE
No doubt RFKJ will be trotted out in Loury's Crank Of The Week show in short order.
Lol.
The Stanford MD economist did admit “Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong”. Sly Stone song worm began playing.
I don’t mind having an opinion that differs from Faux News, Bill Maher, Russell Brand, and the medical cherry-picker Dr John Campbell.