John and Glenn humiliated these comedians, both of whom (I except the laconic Nimesh) relied on anecdotes, hypotheticals, and in the case of Sherrod Small, insipient gay jokes.
As Seth B points out below, two independent conversations took place. This is in many ways a microcosm for the way these issues play out at large. John and Glenn make cogent arguments. The comedians, meanwhile, are way cooler, and their cocky mic control resonates with a different audience.
Please do continue the comedy club experiment. Indeed, if I were nearby, I would love to attend. But please find guests who, while holding opposing views, are worthy of your company on the stage.
I had always read that even though Blacks committed homicides at a far higher rate per capita than whites overall, that whites were disproportionately over-represented in mass shootings like the one we just had yesterday in Highland Park by Robert Crimo, who judging from pictures appears to be a white guy. But I guess I had also heard some pushback against the notion that whites were in fact over-represented in mass shootings so was curious where the matter stood empirically.
I think that was the gist of the joke Sherrod was making about how a Black kid would just shoot one other Black kid instead of the entire school. Admittedly, joking that half the school would've felt that the one kid who got shot deserved it did make some people in the crowd slightly uncomfortable and I gathered by Glenn's reaction that he was a little skeptical of that sentiment as well, but all good. I think it could've been an interesting point to debate, i.e. possible white over-representation in the kinds of mass shootings that seem to grab the national attention.
One of the themes of the discussion seemed to be how the cops tended to have a bias against Blacks relative to non-Blacks. I was thinking about John and Glenn's recent discussion during the monthly Q&A of Roland Fryer's study concluding that even though all else being equal cops don't kill Blacks at higher rates than non-Blacks, they do treat Blacks more roughly in their interactions. This kind of empirical result certainly lends credence to the idea that Blacks don't get a fair shake in their interaction with the police, although I'm sure the critics will counter-argue that perceptions of Blacks by the cops are informed by and large by the disproportionate amount of violence committed by the group as a whole and hence to some extent justified.
One thing that I was thinking about during the entire conversation about race and policing was how in sports Black athletes seem to be viewed differently than white athletes when it comes to violence during play. I remember actually watching the Malice in the Palace back when it occurred in 2004 between the Pistons and the Pacers and in the aftermath there was this notion that when Black players fought in basketball or football it was emblematic of thug culture but that in baseball or hockey, where they actually let the players fight it out, brawling was just an instance of boys being boys. Obviously baseball and hockey are majority white in terms of player composition, i.e. MLB is something like 75-80% percent white and the NHL is around 95% white I believe.
I think you are implying is that that attitudes toward violence in football & basketball is racially biased. I think in the NFL & NBA actual fights seem unexpected, more aggressive and real, and maybe there really is a "thug mentality". In the MLB it usually is some guys clearing the benches and swatting flies & in the NHL, besides it's been part of the game for years, the participants are so heavily padded and helmeted to be rarely harmful.
"In the MLB, the report said 38 percent of all players as of Opening Day 2022 were players of color, a 0.4 percent increase over 2021's numbers. About 28.5 percent of those players were Hispanic or Latino, 1.9 percent were Asian players, and less than 1 percent were Hawaiian/Pacific Islander or Native American."
"While Black players made up about 18 percent of all MLB rosters when TIDES first began assessing the league's demographic data in 1991, Black players represented only 7.2 percent of all MLB players at the start of the current season."
Sherrod's joke about school shootings was one of many misses. And he knew he missed because he repeated the punchline in a desperate attempt to right the ship.
I've heard the point about white representation in mass shootings (indeed, serial killings as well) from my friends further to the left who want to racialize gun control. It's never gone through for me. I believe their goal is to level the moral playing field. It comes off as a kind of schoolyard taunt, like "I know you are but what am I".
I agree that Glenn and John could have picked up the "police harassment" thread, and that harassment was being conflated on stage with real violence. Again, Jon Laster's delivery on his gun-to-the-head anecdote ruined it for me. He was bragging and pleading victim simultaneously, and he didn't bother to elaborate or qualify the incident. Are we to understand that NYPD just go around pointing guns at people's heads for no reason? Clearly, perceptions matter, but this kind of histrionics does nothing to get to the core of the problem.
Race in sports would be an interesting topic for Glenn and John to broach. (Oddly, John always seems to avoid discussion of anything sports-related. Too plebeian maybe.) Football is a ridiculous sport in my opinion, and yes, it is designed to breed "thugs". There's no other game where for the majority of men on the playing field, the object is to throw other men violently to the ground. I'm not sure that the public perception of basketball is the same. Firstly, it's a different class of athlete, and secondly, most basketball players are thoughtful and soft-spoken. Both sports are problematic due to the amount of physical contact they entail, which invariably leads to scuffles.
The answer to all of it, of course, is to strictly enforce codes of conduct across the board. Some measure of violence in professional sports has always been tolerated because it attracts fans. The notion is preposterous that until very recently, you could, as an act of retaliation and with intent to harm, hurl a baseball at someone's head as part of some ancient ritual.
I think John confessed on a recent podcast with Glenn and Matt Taibbi that he wasn't into sports at all, so that probably explains in part why the topic is never broached between Glenn and John. That and the fact that to two Ivy League academics sports might just be too plebian as you say.
In any case, on the entire topic of unfair stereotyping of Black males and that sort of thing, I did find the comparison of perceptions of violence in basketball and football versus perceptions of violence in baseball and hockey to be interesting. If I'm remembering correctly that was one of points raised in the aftermath of the entire Malice in the Palace incident way back in the day. We don't seem to care all that much that in hockey white guys are basically encouraged to fight one another or that even today deliberating throwing a baseball at an opposing batter is considered a legitimate part of the code of honor of MLB if done in retaliation.
So I do think there are instances where legitimate claims can be made that all else being truly equal there's residual bias or negativity towards Blacks relative to non-Blacks. That's why the Roland Fryer study concluding that Blacks were more likely to be treated roughly by the police all else being equal didn't surprise me that much. I think there's a large body of social commentary offered by those like Sherrod and others that highlight the anti-Black biases that might exist in society today.
I guess my own thought has always been that while I certainly can't condone outright bias, I can certainly understand that perceptions and stereotypes don't arise out of a vacuum and that to a non-trivial extent perceptions of particular groups are based off of observed group differences in behaviors and outcomes in the aggregate. This is a point that Glenn has forcefully emphasized as well.
I agree: all the training and social commentary in the world can't completely undo ingrained biases that arise from observed behavior. Particularly when it hinges on some aspect of self-preservation, bias seems like an essential component of human nature. In my experience, new arrivals to the United States harbor stronger biases than native whites (often revealing them matter-of-factly), and I think this is a testament to your claim above.
While anti-black bias is typically invoked as presenting in other groups, I think it would be interesting to explore the stereotypes that black people keep about their own kin. I imagine it's a touchy subject. How do these self-stereotypes affect development and social cohesion within the black community?
John and Glenn humiliated these comedians, both of whom (I except the laconic Nimesh) relied on anecdotes, hypotheticals, and in the case of Sherrod Small, insipient gay jokes.
As Seth B points out below, two independent conversations took place. This is in many ways a microcosm for the way these issues play out at large. John and Glenn make cogent arguments. The comedians, meanwhile, are way cooler, and their cocky mic control resonates with a different audience.
Please do continue the comedy club experiment. Indeed, if I were nearby, I would love to attend. But please find guests who, while holding opposing views, are worthy of your company on the stage.
I had always read that even though Blacks committed homicides at a far higher rate per capita than whites overall, that whites were disproportionately over-represented in mass shootings like the one we just had yesterday in Highland Park by Robert Crimo, who judging from pictures appears to be a white guy. But I guess I had also heard some pushback against the notion that whites were in fact over-represented in mass shootings so was curious where the matter stood empirically.
I think that was the gist of the joke Sherrod was making about how a Black kid would just shoot one other Black kid instead of the entire school. Admittedly, joking that half the school would've felt that the one kid who got shot deserved it did make some people in the crowd slightly uncomfortable and I gathered by Glenn's reaction that he was a little skeptical of that sentiment as well, but all good. I think it could've been an interesting point to debate, i.e. possible white over-representation in the kinds of mass shootings that seem to grab the national attention.
One of the themes of the discussion seemed to be how the cops tended to have a bias against Blacks relative to non-Blacks. I was thinking about John and Glenn's recent discussion during the monthly Q&A of Roland Fryer's study concluding that even though all else being equal cops don't kill Blacks at higher rates than non-Blacks, they do treat Blacks more roughly in their interactions. This kind of empirical result certainly lends credence to the idea that Blacks don't get a fair shake in their interaction with the police, although I'm sure the critics will counter-argue that perceptions of Blacks by the cops are informed by and large by the disproportionate amount of violence committed by the group as a whole and hence to some extent justified.
One thing that I was thinking about during the entire conversation about race and policing was how in sports Black athletes seem to be viewed differently than white athletes when it comes to violence during play. I remember actually watching the Malice in the Palace back when it occurred in 2004 between the Pistons and the Pacers and in the aftermath there was this notion that when Black players fought in basketball or football it was emblematic of thug culture but that in baseball or hockey, where they actually let the players fight it out, brawling was just an instance of boys being boys. Obviously baseball and hockey are majority white in terms of player composition, i.e. MLB is something like 75-80% percent white and the NHL is around 95% white I believe.
I think you are implying is that that attitudes toward violence in football & basketball is racially biased. I think in the NFL & NBA actual fights seem unexpected, more aggressive and real, and maybe there really is a "thug mentality". In the MLB it usually is some guys clearing the benches and swatting flies & in the NHL, besides it's been part of the game for years, the participants are so heavily padded and helmeted to be rarely harmful.
"In the MLB, the report said 38 percent of all players as of Opening Day 2022 were players of color, a 0.4 percent increase over 2021's numbers. About 28.5 percent of those players were Hispanic or Latino, 1.9 percent were Asian players, and less than 1 percent were Hawaiian/Pacific Islander or Native American."
"While Black players made up about 18 percent of all MLB rosters when TIDES first began assessing the league's demographic data in 1991, Black players represented only 7.2 percent of all MLB players at the start of the current season."
Newsweek 5/19/22 Meaghan Roos
I'm guessing the 75-80% number must be counting Hispanic whites as white.
Sherrod's joke about school shootings was one of many misses. And he knew he missed because he repeated the punchline in a desperate attempt to right the ship.
I've heard the point about white representation in mass shootings (indeed, serial killings as well) from my friends further to the left who want to racialize gun control. It's never gone through for me. I believe their goal is to level the moral playing field. It comes off as a kind of schoolyard taunt, like "I know you are but what am I".
I agree that Glenn and John could have picked up the "police harassment" thread, and that harassment was being conflated on stage with real violence. Again, Jon Laster's delivery on his gun-to-the-head anecdote ruined it for me. He was bragging and pleading victim simultaneously, and he didn't bother to elaborate or qualify the incident. Are we to understand that NYPD just go around pointing guns at people's heads for no reason? Clearly, perceptions matter, but this kind of histrionics does nothing to get to the core of the problem.
Race in sports would be an interesting topic for Glenn and John to broach. (Oddly, John always seems to avoid discussion of anything sports-related. Too plebeian maybe.) Football is a ridiculous sport in my opinion, and yes, it is designed to breed "thugs". There's no other game where for the majority of men on the playing field, the object is to throw other men violently to the ground. I'm not sure that the public perception of basketball is the same. Firstly, it's a different class of athlete, and secondly, most basketball players are thoughtful and soft-spoken. Both sports are problematic due to the amount of physical contact they entail, which invariably leads to scuffles.
The answer to all of it, of course, is to strictly enforce codes of conduct across the board. Some measure of violence in professional sports has always been tolerated because it attracts fans. The notion is preposterous that until very recently, you could, as an act of retaliation and with intent to harm, hurl a baseball at someone's head as part of some ancient ritual.
I think John confessed on a recent podcast with Glenn and Matt Taibbi that he wasn't into sports at all, so that probably explains in part why the topic is never broached between Glenn and John. That and the fact that to two Ivy League academics sports might just be too plebian as you say.
In any case, on the entire topic of unfair stereotyping of Black males and that sort of thing, I did find the comparison of perceptions of violence in basketball and football versus perceptions of violence in baseball and hockey to be interesting. If I'm remembering correctly that was one of points raised in the aftermath of the entire Malice in the Palace incident way back in the day. We don't seem to care all that much that in hockey white guys are basically encouraged to fight one another or that even today deliberating throwing a baseball at an opposing batter is considered a legitimate part of the code of honor of MLB if done in retaliation.
So I do think there are instances where legitimate claims can be made that all else being truly equal there's residual bias or negativity towards Blacks relative to non-Blacks. That's why the Roland Fryer study concluding that Blacks were more likely to be treated roughly by the police all else being equal didn't surprise me that much. I think there's a large body of social commentary offered by those like Sherrod and others that highlight the anti-Black biases that might exist in society today.
I guess my own thought has always been that while I certainly can't condone outright bias, I can certainly understand that perceptions and stereotypes don't arise out of a vacuum and that to a non-trivial extent perceptions of particular groups are based off of observed group differences in behaviors and outcomes in the aggregate. This is a point that Glenn has forcefully emphasized as well.
Very well said, Yan.
I agree: all the training and social commentary in the world can't completely undo ingrained biases that arise from observed behavior. Particularly when it hinges on some aspect of self-preservation, bias seems like an essential component of human nature. In my experience, new arrivals to the United States harbor stronger biases than native whites (often revealing them matter-of-factly), and I think this is a testament to your claim above.
While anti-black bias is typically invoked as presenting in other groups, I think it would be interesting to explore the stereotypes that black people keep about their own kin. I imagine it's a touchy subject. How do these self-stereotypes affect development and social cohesion within the black community?