"your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters"
Rita, when did I do this? (And no, I am not trying to be facetious or coy.)
I re-read my post to see if your claim was valid. It's not.
I didn't pull any punches. I will concede that. But I didn't even *use* the word conservative. Not once. In fact, I kind of went out of my way to NOT criticize "all", using qualifiers like "*MANY* of his supporters", "certain people", etc.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but a LOT of my views are conservative, based on the *old* meaning. (I am not sure WHAT "conservative" means *these* days.)
I used to *proudly* call myself a "Black conservative" back in the day. Fwiw, some of my best friends--specifically two people--are or were Trump supporters. I am the last person who will label ALL of *anything* as all good or all bad.
I am not a Democrat. I am not a liberal. I am not a man of the left. I don't know too many Dems who hate affirmative action the way I do. I don't know too many leftists who promote the free market the way I do. But if you ask me, none of that is relevant here.
Look at what the American right has become over the past decade, especially vis-à-vis Donald Trump. That is *my* point ultimately. Look at the effects on the overall culture, politically and otherwise. I can't even watch a basketball game without dudes trying to make Caitlin Clark into their new culture war symbol. It's childish and pathetic.
And I don't see the logic in voting for someone with the temperament of a Donald Trump. Again, nuclear weapons matter. When a choice is as binary and consequential as this one, nuance needs to take a back seat. Just my opinion.
Lastly, I know about Braver Angels. John Wood has my utmost respect.
I am more than capable of having a calm, fair-minded conversation, Rita. But like McWhorter, I have to ask at some point, where do we draw the line?
We don't have to agree about where we draw our respective lines.
My sincere apology for not responding to your reply much sooner. Life's demands have a way of derailing my best intentions.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are definitely right in helping me to see that my reading of your initial comment was in error. Once you clarified the full intent of your words, it was easy to see where I had misread some of your meaning.
As I read through your reply and reflected on your intent (as you pointed out), I realized something that I had not given consideration to upon my first reading.
Before 2015/16, I had very little involvement in the world (or even the reported news) of "politics". I had decided MANY years ago that politics was not a world I understood very well and paid little attention to, with the exception of provocative happenings and my voting duty as a citizen.
I was deeply heart-broken over what I saw happening on my TV screen, as the media reported the chaos and hatred taking place in the Summer of 2020. Watching human beings display such hatred and disrespect for one another, destroying communities and the senseless taking of lives sobered me and demanded my attention.
Being married for 40 years (at that point in time) with 2 adult daughters and 5 grandchildren, I found myself deeply concerned for the future of our country and the lives of all those that I love. At 62 years of age, the future of our nation was more of a concern for those I will be leaving behind than for myself.
And then... I was jolted by the unexpected loss of one of my deepest friendships of 50 years. And "why"? The DEEP hatred this friend had for Donald Trump translated into lost confidence and affection for me.
As a Christ Follower throughout my life, with a commitment to fidelity and faithfulness in relationships, this was a betrayal that I would never have anticipated. The years of building this deep, involved and committed friendship, (beginning in our 6th grade year) come rain or shine, the sharing of joys and sorrows and all the time invested, came down to being challenged because of my vote for the conservative Presidential candidate.
This friend even went as far as to tell me that I didn't have to vote (because of my deep dislike of Donald Trump). 'No vote' means 'no complaining' in my book. It became clear that I did not know this friend as well as I believed that I did.
Someone who would allow "personal politics" to take precedent over a lifetime of hard-won friendship was not someone that shared my understanding of what TRUE friendship means.
I would have continued trying to discuss and work through our differences of opinion, but she began communicating less and less until (for the sake of closure since she seemed to be just fading away) I released her from any further obligation to our friendship.
It was a deep wound and heartbreak that I would NEVER have anticipated, falsely believing that 'who I am', as opposed to who I chose to vote for, would be the deciding factor that would end our friendship.
The blanket judgements I heard being made about "reds" were ignorant and unfair, leaving me deeply disappointed in those choosing to make character judgments based on this one element of a whole person.
Thankfully, I had two friends (one 'red', one 'blue' who didn't even know each other) recommend BRAVER ANGELS to me.
The very day that I investigated the organization was the day I joined! Through my involvement and dedicated participation with BRAVER ANGELS (www.braverangels.org) my faith in human beings was restored. Not only that, but I came to have a clearer understanding of some of the issues and where the personal divides lay. That's not to say that there are no disagreements within Braver Angels. But, the commitment to CIVIL and CURIOUS conversations in an environment that respects that we all have different life experiences and expects equal respect for everyone participating, makes for a safe environment to have these difficult conversations and to grow in better understanding of how and why people believe and vote as they do.
My ultimate point, Charles, is that those who have followed politics regularly and more closely have a more educated understanding and perspective than me. I can admit that there are attitudes toward politics that I don't fully understand and share. With that being said, I still believe that respect and kindness toward one another (regardless of deeply differing perspectives) is of greater importance than judging and treating one another so harshly.
We can judge a candidates politics without totally demeaning them and their followers. This, I believe, is the right thing to do.
Very interesting journey, Rita. Appreciate your thoughtfulness, humility and honesty.
Btw, you know more than a lot of people out here; a lot more; trust me.
"We can judge a candidates politics without totally demeaning them and their followers."
Indeed. But sometimes SOME followers deserve criticism.
Let me say this: I agree with a lot of your core position. Many of the schisms out here---dare I say, most?--are largely based in a lack of understanding; which wouldn't be a problem if we were all willing to do what you and I are doing right here and now.
Which is talk; specifically, in a civil, logical, honest and fact-based manner. But for too many people these days, this is too tall of an order (or so it seems). Too many folks think we are mired in an actual culture war that demands loyalty to this or that ideological/partisan tribe. It's somewhat of a kill or be killed mentality. It's kind of crazy.
Like you, I believe we should engage with anyone willing to engage with us in a serious way. We are not THAT far apart. You will never see me clapback on someone who approaches me in a decent way. At the same time, I could never be a John Wood. I do not possess his level of forbearance and probably never will. But I try (more than most if you ask me).
But US politics THESE days is a far cry from John Wood. There is a level of irrationality and incivility, and proud ignorance (for lack of a better phrase), that is just flooding the landscape. And it deserves pushback and sometimes clapback.
Patience and empathy are important qualities, but they are not always the best solutions. I would argue that America has entered a new world. One that requires more than patience and empathy.
Forgive my rambling (couldn't help myself this time).
Thanks so much for your reply to my (overly) detailed and long post. 😊 I appreciate your willingness to read it through and respond! And thank you for your kind words.
"Many of the schisms out here---dare I say, most?--are largely based in a lack of understanding; which wouldn't be a problem if we were all willing to do what you and I are doing right here and now.
Which is talk; specifically in a civil, logical, honest and fact-based manner. But for too many people these days, this is too tall of an order (or so it seems). Too many folks think we are mired in an actual culture war that demands loyalty to this or that ideological/partisan tribe. It's somewhat of a kill or be killed mentality. It's kind of crazy.
...There is a level of irrationality and incivility, and proud ignorance (for lack of a better phrase), that is just flooding the landscape."
I couldn't agree more, Charles. I've contemplated the puzzle of how we find ourselves, as a country, with some people at such deep levels of disdain and hatred for one another??? "Deeply concerned and heartbroken" is an honest description of my personal feelings. A short yet powerful scripture verse became one of my favorites many years ago:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
~ Hosea 4:6
As they say, "ignorance is bliss"... until you have to pay the piper! I am so thankful that I was taught that "being ignorant" is nothing to be ashamed of (ALL of us are ignorant of MANY things) unless I choose to stay that way.
But, taking the time to do our "due diligence" is not something most people care (or know how) to pursue. And often, the demands of just everyday life make it difficult to take the time to investigate more closely the object of our ignorance.
Secondarily, I fear that too many people see "being right" as a standard that helps define their value or affects how others see them. When we look for "Truth" it's imperative to put our ego aside.
Naturally, there's a deeper conversation to be had about BIG "T" Truth and SMALL "t" truth which should change the complexion of any conversation.
I would love to have you join us at one of our BRAVER ANGELS ZOOM Events! The Online Events happen fairly frequently and are always FREE. Visit www.braverangels.org to find a listing of upcoming Discussions (which are always on a wide array of topics). I'll watch for you! 😊
Thanks again, Charles, for your civility and kindness.
"your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters"
Rita, when did I do this? (And no, I am not trying to be facetious or coy.)
I re-read my post to see if your claim was valid. It's not.
I didn't pull any punches. I will concede that. But I didn't even *use* the word conservative. Not once. In fact, I kind of went out of my way to NOT criticize "all", using qualifiers like "*MANY* of his supporters", "certain people", etc.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but a LOT of my views are conservative, based on the *old* meaning. (I am not sure WHAT "conservative" means *these* days.)
I used to *proudly* call myself a "Black conservative" back in the day. Fwiw, some of my best friends--specifically two people--are or were Trump supporters. I am the last person who will label ALL of *anything* as all good or all bad.
I am not a Democrat. I am not a liberal. I am not a man of the left. I don't know too many Dems who hate affirmative action the way I do. I don't know too many leftists who promote the free market the way I do. But if you ask me, none of that is relevant here.
Look at what the American right has become over the past decade, especially vis-à-vis Donald Trump. That is *my* point ultimately. Look at the effects on the overall culture, politically and otherwise. I can't even watch a basketball game without dudes trying to make Caitlin Clark into their new culture war symbol. It's childish and pathetic.
And I don't see the logic in voting for someone with the temperament of a Donald Trump. Again, nuclear weapons matter. When a choice is as binary and consequential as this one, nuance needs to take a back seat. Just my opinion.
Lastly, I know about Braver Angels. John Wood has my utmost respect.
I am more than capable of having a calm, fair-minded conversation, Rita. But like McWhorter, I have to ask at some point, where do we draw the line?
We don't have to agree about where we draw our respective lines.
Charles,
My sincere apology for not responding to your reply much sooner. Life's demands have a way of derailing my best intentions.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are definitely right in helping me to see that my reading of your initial comment was in error. Once you clarified the full intent of your words, it was easy to see where I had misread some of your meaning.
As I read through your reply and reflected on your intent (as you pointed out), I realized something that I had not given consideration to upon my first reading.
Before 2015/16, I had very little involvement in the world (or even the reported news) of "politics". I had decided MANY years ago that politics was not a world I understood very well and paid little attention to, with the exception of provocative happenings and my voting duty as a citizen.
I was deeply heart-broken over what I saw happening on my TV screen, as the media reported the chaos and hatred taking place in the Summer of 2020. Watching human beings display such hatred and disrespect for one another, destroying communities and the senseless taking of lives sobered me and demanded my attention.
Being married for 40 years (at that point in time) with 2 adult daughters and 5 grandchildren, I found myself deeply concerned for the future of our country and the lives of all those that I love. At 62 years of age, the future of our nation was more of a concern for those I will be leaving behind than for myself.
And then... I was jolted by the unexpected loss of one of my deepest friendships of 50 years. And "why"? The DEEP hatred this friend had for Donald Trump translated into lost confidence and affection for me.
As a Christ Follower throughout my life, with a commitment to fidelity and faithfulness in relationships, this was a betrayal that I would never have anticipated. The years of building this deep, involved and committed friendship, (beginning in our 6th grade year) come rain or shine, the sharing of joys and sorrows and all the time invested, came down to being challenged because of my vote for the conservative Presidential candidate.
This friend even went as far as to tell me that I didn't have to vote (because of my deep dislike of Donald Trump). 'No vote' means 'no complaining' in my book. It became clear that I did not know this friend as well as I believed that I did.
Someone who would allow "personal politics" to take precedent over a lifetime of hard-won friendship was not someone that shared my understanding of what TRUE friendship means.
I would have continued trying to discuss and work through our differences of opinion, but she began communicating less and less until (for the sake of closure since she seemed to be just fading away) I released her from any further obligation to our friendship.
It was a deep wound and heartbreak that I would NEVER have anticipated, falsely believing that 'who I am', as opposed to who I chose to vote for, would be the deciding factor that would end our friendship.
The blanket judgements I heard being made about "reds" were ignorant and unfair, leaving me deeply disappointed in those choosing to make character judgments based on this one element of a whole person.
Thankfully, I had two friends (one 'red', one 'blue' who didn't even know each other) recommend BRAVER ANGELS to me.
The very day that I investigated the organization was the day I joined! Through my involvement and dedicated participation with BRAVER ANGELS (www.braverangels.org) my faith in human beings was restored. Not only that, but I came to have a clearer understanding of some of the issues and where the personal divides lay. That's not to say that there are no disagreements within Braver Angels. But, the commitment to CIVIL and CURIOUS conversations in an environment that respects that we all have different life experiences and expects equal respect for everyone participating, makes for a safe environment to have these difficult conversations and to grow in better understanding of how and why people believe and vote as they do.
My ultimate point, Charles, is that those who have followed politics regularly and more closely have a more educated understanding and perspective than me. I can admit that there are attitudes toward politics that I don't fully understand and share. With that being said, I still believe that respect and kindness toward one another (regardless of deeply differing perspectives) is of greater importance than judging and treating one another so harshly.
We can judge a candidates politics without totally demeaning them and their followers. This, I believe, is the right thing to do.
Very interesting journey, Rita. Appreciate your thoughtfulness, humility and honesty.
Btw, you know more than a lot of people out here; a lot more; trust me.
"We can judge a candidates politics without totally demeaning them and their followers."
Indeed. But sometimes SOME followers deserve criticism.
Let me say this: I agree with a lot of your core position. Many of the schisms out here---dare I say, most?--are largely based in a lack of understanding; which wouldn't be a problem if we were all willing to do what you and I are doing right here and now.
Which is talk; specifically, in a civil, logical, honest and fact-based manner. But for too many people these days, this is too tall of an order (or so it seems). Too many folks think we are mired in an actual culture war that demands loyalty to this or that ideological/partisan tribe. It's somewhat of a kill or be killed mentality. It's kind of crazy.
Like you, I believe we should engage with anyone willing to engage with us in a serious way. We are not THAT far apart. You will never see me clapback on someone who approaches me in a decent way. At the same time, I could never be a John Wood. I do not possess his level of forbearance and probably never will. But I try (more than most if you ask me).
But US politics THESE days is a far cry from John Wood. There is a level of irrationality and incivility, and proud ignorance (for lack of a better phrase), that is just flooding the landscape. And it deserves pushback and sometimes clapback.
Patience and empathy are important qualities, but they are not always the best solutions. I would argue that America has entered a new world. One that requires more than patience and empathy.
Forgive my rambling (couldn't help myself this time).
Charles,
Thanks so much for your reply to my (overly) detailed and long post. 😊 I appreciate your willingness to read it through and respond! And thank you for your kind words.
"Many of the schisms out here---dare I say, most?--are largely based in a lack of understanding; which wouldn't be a problem if we were all willing to do what you and I are doing right here and now.
Which is talk; specifically in a civil, logical, honest and fact-based manner. But for too many people these days, this is too tall of an order (or so it seems). Too many folks think we are mired in an actual culture war that demands loyalty to this or that ideological/partisan tribe. It's somewhat of a kill or be killed mentality. It's kind of crazy.
...There is a level of irrationality and incivility, and proud ignorance (for lack of a better phrase), that is just flooding the landscape."
I couldn't agree more, Charles. I've contemplated the puzzle of how we find ourselves, as a country, with some people at such deep levels of disdain and hatred for one another??? "Deeply concerned and heartbroken" is an honest description of my personal feelings. A short yet powerful scripture verse became one of my favorites many years ago:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
~ Hosea 4:6
As they say, "ignorance is bliss"... until you have to pay the piper! I am so thankful that I was taught that "being ignorant" is nothing to be ashamed of (ALL of us are ignorant of MANY things) unless I choose to stay that way.
But, taking the time to do our "due diligence" is not something most people care (or know how) to pursue. And often, the demands of just everyday life make it difficult to take the time to investigate more closely the object of our ignorance.
Secondarily, I fear that too many people see "being right" as a standard that helps define their value or affects how others see them. When we look for "Truth" it's imperative to put our ego aside.
Naturally, there's a deeper conversation to be had about BIG "T" Truth and SMALL "t" truth which should change the complexion of any conversation.
I would love to have you join us at one of our BRAVER ANGELS ZOOM Events! The Online Events happen fairly frequently and are always FREE. Visit www.braverangels.org to find a listing of upcoming Discussions (which are always on a wide array of topics). I'll watch for you! 😊
Thanks again, Charles, for your civility and kindness.
Blessings ~