Someone help me out here. I remember a lot of people being duped about the 9/11 attack by Loose Change, and one should be skeptical of these documentaries. At the ~59 minute mark, they show a shot of the MRT applied to the shoulder blade, and then just at 1:00:18 mark, they show the knee directly on the neck (you can at least see the knee passing the border of Floyd's tank top on the right shoulder. I've heard it argued that it was poor technique, in that you don't kneel directly on the neck. Why not go over these specifics in the documentary? I'm sure there is a lot of valid shenanigans that went on and that the death could have been unrelated to Chauvin's tactic, but how am I to be sure that the drugs along with a poor technique couldn't have caused Floyd's death. Ultimately, I'm not convinced either way and am not prepared to give a definitive opinion either way, and not sure how John and Glenn can be.
Hi Kristine, I seem to recall that the idea was that he was on his stomach too long and because he was in such bad health he couldn’t fully fill his lungs (I believe it’s called compression asphyxia). The testimony as I recall it, was that he had his knee on him too long, not that it was per se on his neck. I think after he was zip tied one of the trainee officers suggested they move him to his side, per policy, and Chauvin said no. It’s too bad. If he was going to die anyways (I don’t know) he would have then died zip-tied on his side, and most likely no one would have gone to jail.
Also, I agree about the 9/11 movie comparison. I becomes incomplete narrative vs misleading narrative which just invites people to believe whatever they want, when there is a knowable objective reality.
Thank you for the reply. A fair documentary would have been a deep dive investigation into how he died I guess, instead of what was offered. Floyd was probably a major asshole... irrelevant.
I got the impression he was a pretty good guy who just made endlessly bad choices. But that too is irrelevant. Except that it gives some context on how the situation even came to be. Endlessly bad choices.
Sorry, I believe you missed my point. I always thought it was silly that he was charged with murder. But my explanation above is more about whether Chauvin was acting 100% by the book or whether he actually executed the MRT poorly which could have contributed to Floyd's death. The documentarians appeared to deceive is as I clearly see a knee on his shoulder and later a knee on his neck, and they claim it's in the same position, when it clearly is not. It could very well be that Chauvin was sloppy and accidentally contributed to his death (or he could have been maliciously using a poor technique although not with the intention to kill but just to make him feel extra discomfort; fyi, my hunch is that it wasn't malicious). However, the documentarians are clearly pushing the idea that Chauvin was doing everything correctly while showing us images that don't add up to their theory.
Most of the general public haven't seen MI - mentally ill - cases before. I have, I did defense for involuntary commitments for 10 years. Floyd was pretty obviously an MI case, on his first arrest where he showed signs and symptoms of MI, he should have been involuntarily committed to a state hospital for long enough to treat the MI issues. If the ambulance had shown up, he would have been strapped to a gurney and transported to a locked psych ward and treated there. "Sloppy and accidentally" = negligent manslaughter, and "maliciously but without the intent to kill" = reckless homicide, also known as second degree murder - neither rise to the standard of first degree murder, which require a state of mind which is knowing and intentional. If your hunch is that it wasn't malicious, that means that there is a reasonable doubt that it could have been second degree murder. The correct way to have charged Chauvin would have been murder in the second degree, with an underlying lesser included charge of negligent homicide. If there was a reasonable doubt that it was second degree murder, the jury could have been given a negligent homicide instruction. First degree murder in this case is an example of over charging - prosecutors do this, though, as an incentive in plea negotiations, i.e. "If you decide to take this to a jury trial instead of having your client plead to second degree murder, I'll amend the charge to first degree murder." The presence of a crowd outside screaming for Chauvin's blood should have been sufficient for a change of venue, from the psychological pressure on the jury, combined with direct threats to jurors, there's no way that Chauvin got a fair trial on the merits.
BTW, I'm channeling Glenn's classic devil's advocate move here. I'd wager you can find experts out there who would refute that the MRT used by Chauvin was perfect, just as I'm sure the Loose Change documentarians could have found experts claiming the buildings could easily come down by the planes and fire alone.
Someone help me out here. I remember a lot of people being duped about the 9/11 attack by Loose Change, and one should be skeptical of these documentaries. At the ~59 minute mark, they show a shot of the MRT applied to the shoulder blade, and then just at 1:00:18 mark, they show the knee directly on the neck (you can at least see the knee passing the border of Floyd's tank top on the right shoulder. I've heard it argued that it was poor technique, in that you don't kneel directly on the neck. Why not go over these specifics in the documentary? I'm sure there is a lot of valid shenanigans that went on and that the death could have been unrelated to Chauvin's tactic, but how am I to be sure that the drugs along with a poor technique couldn't have caused Floyd's death. Ultimately, I'm not convinced either way and am not prepared to give a definitive opinion either way, and not sure how John and Glenn can be.
Hi Kristine, I seem to recall that the idea was that he was on his stomach too long and because he was in such bad health he couldn’t fully fill his lungs (I believe it’s called compression asphyxia). The testimony as I recall it, was that he had his knee on him too long, not that it was per se on his neck. I think after he was zip tied one of the trainee officers suggested they move him to his side, per policy, and Chauvin said no. It’s too bad. If he was going to die anyways (I don’t know) he would have then died zip-tied on his side, and most likely no one would have gone to jail.
Also, I agree about the 9/11 movie comparison. I becomes incomplete narrative vs misleading narrative which just invites people to believe whatever they want, when there is a knowable objective reality.
Thank you for the reply. A fair documentary would have been a deep dive investigation into how he died I guess, instead of what was offered. Floyd was probably a major asshole... irrelevant.
I got the impression he was a pretty good guy who just made endlessly bad choices. But that too is irrelevant. Except that it gives some context on how the situation even came to be. Endlessly bad choices.
Which means that you have a reasonable doubt, either way, and can't find Chauvin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, given the newly revealed evidence.
Sorry, I believe you missed my point. I always thought it was silly that he was charged with murder. But my explanation above is more about whether Chauvin was acting 100% by the book or whether he actually executed the MRT poorly which could have contributed to Floyd's death. The documentarians appeared to deceive is as I clearly see a knee on his shoulder and later a knee on his neck, and they claim it's in the same position, when it clearly is not. It could very well be that Chauvin was sloppy and accidentally contributed to his death (or he could have been maliciously using a poor technique although not with the intention to kill but just to make him feel extra discomfort; fyi, my hunch is that it wasn't malicious). However, the documentarians are clearly pushing the idea that Chauvin was doing everything correctly while showing us images that don't add up to their theory.
Most of the general public haven't seen MI - mentally ill - cases before. I have, I did defense for involuntary commitments for 10 years. Floyd was pretty obviously an MI case, on his first arrest where he showed signs and symptoms of MI, he should have been involuntarily committed to a state hospital for long enough to treat the MI issues. If the ambulance had shown up, he would have been strapped to a gurney and transported to a locked psych ward and treated there. "Sloppy and accidentally" = negligent manslaughter, and "maliciously but without the intent to kill" = reckless homicide, also known as second degree murder - neither rise to the standard of first degree murder, which require a state of mind which is knowing and intentional. If your hunch is that it wasn't malicious, that means that there is a reasonable doubt that it could have been second degree murder. The correct way to have charged Chauvin would have been murder in the second degree, with an underlying lesser included charge of negligent homicide. If there was a reasonable doubt that it was second degree murder, the jury could have been given a negligent homicide instruction. First degree murder in this case is an example of over charging - prosecutors do this, though, as an incentive in plea negotiations, i.e. "If you decide to take this to a jury trial instead of having your client plead to second degree murder, I'll amend the charge to first degree murder." The presence of a crowd outside screaming for Chauvin's blood should have been sufficient for a change of venue, from the psychological pressure on the jury, combined with direct threats to jurors, there's no way that Chauvin got a fair trial on the merits.
Again, you are missing my point. I am making criticisms at the documentary.
BTW, I'm channeling Glenn's classic devil's advocate move here. I'd wager you can find experts out there who would refute that the MRT used by Chauvin was perfect, just as I'm sure the Loose Change documentarians could have found experts claiming the buildings could easily come down by the planes and fire alone.