To be clear Jesse, I'm definitely not saying that Trump equals Hitler. Nor is he Stalin or Mao. Or Idi Amin. Or even Castro. But to be fair, I don't think John was really equating Trump to Hitler either. I think his point about reading the Hitler biography was just that he was trying to understand how demagogues come to power.
Anyway, two points (and then I'll probably give you the last word if you want it).
First, I think it's sad that so many people believe, in the way that you describe, that there is no real difference between Trump and other politicians. I really do think that all previous presidents (and most politicians) are fundamentally different from Trump. I believe almost all of them were motivated by a mix of wanting to do some good for the world as well as personal ambition. I think Trump’s complete narcissism and self-centeredness is literally unprecedented among major American political figures.
I believe that virtually everyone, on both sides of the aisle, is a better person than Trump. In fact, with the exception of MTG (who I think is simply a whack job), I'm not aware of a single person in Congress of either party who I would not prefer to Trump as President. The only one who even gives me a moment of pause is Ted Cruz. While Cruz is obviously a much smarter and more competent person than Trump and doesn’t present the same kind of threat to democracy, I pause with him only because I've never heard of anyone else in politics who is so disliked by everyone who has ever spent time with him from colleagues to school mates. And like Trump, it seems sad for that bad a person to become President.
Second, with regard to Trump as a danger to democracy, for me it has little to nothing to do with January 6th. While that was obviously the visible moment in his effort to overturn the election, I agree it never had any real chance to actually change anything.
What I think was much scarier was both Trump’s phone call to Kemp trying to get the necessary votes in Georgia by whatever means necessary and his effort to get a slate of fake electors selected in Michigan. These were both real attempts to steal the election that could have succeeded if more officials had been MAGA rather than people of principle.
And I will tell you, speaking only for myself personally, that if a state legislature ever uses its powers to override the votes of the people in the state to throw its electors to its preferred candidate over the will of the voters, I would consider it a coup (even if technically constitutional) and would consider it legitimate to fight back by any and all means (including taking up arms if necessary).
And I think this gets to the real danger of Trump. American is a constitutional republic, but it’s not simply the constitution that has assured peaceful transfer of powers. It’s that we have norms. It’s that candidates for office, once they have exhausted their legal remedies for contesting an election, have agreed to concede and call for their supporters to stop fighting the election and become the loyal opposition. The ultimate example of this, of course, being Al Gore just 24 years ago. Can you imagine if the situation were reversed today? If Trump were to lose an election because supporters of Biden stopped a recount in a state where Biden’s brother was the governor? But 24 years ago, for the good of the country and despite the fact that it was terrible for him personally, when Gore was faced with this situation he agreed to stop the fight once the Supreme Court had made its final ruling.
I do believe that the way Trump has flagrantly violated this norm is immensely dangerous. And it’s all the worse that his supporters back him in this, despite the fact that his the kind of man that Matt Yglesias describes here: https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-orange-man-is-bad
It is refreshing to hear you reject the Trump=Hitler equation. No matter how much one dislikes him, it's still baffling to make the comparison; and people have been doing it since well before January 6. I'm curious if it is simply an ignorance of history. There may be, for instance, a whole generation of young voters who grew up on social media, who don't even know who Hitler was. They might think insulting people on Twitter is actually a Hitler-like move.
Trump has a big ego but I do believe he cares about America. I recently saw a clip from the early 1990s where Trump was on one of the big talk shows (Oprah, I think), talking about how Americans were getting screwed by overseas manufacturing, demanding something be done about it. (The host, seemingly impressed by this off-script rant, asked if Trump would consider running for president someday!) But I get how his ego can distract from any pro-America sensibilities he does have. He has become, unavoidably, a politician; but when people say he's different (or at least *was* different), they mean he's not a career politician. He was never a congressman, senator, or governor; thus he never had those years of "refinement," learning how to be phony, brown-nose, lie with a smile, &c. He's a straight shooter.
I think the Georgia phone call is similar to Jan. 6, in that people overreacted as if the country was in peril, when in both cases nothing (or very little) actually happened. As with Jan. 6, don't you think Trump could have done more, if he were really the evil dictator? Perhaps send some of his gun-toting supporters to Atlanta and demand Kemp's removal, or even his life? (This is just a hypothetical; I know you've clarified Trump is not on par with the evil dictators.) In both cases, Trump was very loud, but it was only words. He's actually followed the rules. He left office Jan. 20th. He's said "Find me votes," but he hasn't actually produces his own votes out of thin air. He was simply saying, in his verbose way, "Make sure you've counted all the votes properly." But again, I can clearly see how Trump's opponents interpret it as trying to steal the election. I'm sure many on the other side would accuse Biden of doing the same, if the scenario were reversed.
Sorry. Having trouble resisting the urge to make one last point. Your bar what constitutes a threat to democracy seems incredibly high to me Jesse. You seem to be saying that anything short of a military coup doesn't qualify.
Finally, if you think Trump's call to Kemp was his way of saying "make sure you have counted all the votes properly", I don't know what to tell you. It's like believing that Tony was telling Christopher to help these guys get a suit (https://youtu.be/9va2KKNCg4o?si=aPjP1Ht1Kf0Die_0&t=261).
But I think my view is plausible until proven otherwise--that is, until Trump actually takes power in an unlawful manner. He doesn't appear to be doing this, as we are now close to the next presidential election. Or, until the Orbanization of America. Maybe that will happen, but until it does, I stand by my statement: Trump's complaints have been mostly hot air.
To be fair, Republicans do this too. With the elections of Biden, Obama, and probably every Democrat before them, Republicans have made sky-is-falling, world-is-ending statements. Yet we are still here. 2020 obviously is freshest in mind, when Trump and others claimed that a Biden victory would destroy America; it would fall to socialism, China, fill in the blank. Now they are doing the same here: "2024 is the most pivotal, important election in our history."
To be clear Jesse, I'm definitely not saying that Trump equals Hitler. Nor is he Stalin or Mao. Or Idi Amin. Or even Castro. But to be fair, I don't think John was really equating Trump to Hitler either. I think his point about reading the Hitler biography was just that he was trying to understand how demagogues come to power.
Anyway, two points (and then I'll probably give you the last word if you want it).
First, I think it's sad that so many people believe, in the way that you describe, that there is no real difference between Trump and other politicians. I really do think that all previous presidents (and most politicians) are fundamentally different from Trump. I believe almost all of them were motivated by a mix of wanting to do some good for the world as well as personal ambition. I think Trump’s complete narcissism and self-centeredness is literally unprecedented among major American political figures.
I believe that virtually everyone, on both sides of the aisle, is a better person than Trump. In fact, with the exception of MTG (who I think is simply a whack job), I'm not aware of a single person in Congress of either party who I would not prefer to Trump as President. The only one who even gives me a moment of pause is Ted Cruz. While Cruz is obviously a much smarter and more competent person than Trump and doesn’t present the same kind of threat to democracy, I pause with him only because I've never heard of anyone else in politics who is so disliked by everyone who has ever spent time with him from colleagues to school mates. And like Trump, it seems sad for that bad a person to become President.
Second, with regard to Trump as a danger to democracy, for me it has little to nothing to do with January 6th. While that was obviously the visible moment in his effort to overturn the election, I agree it never had any real chance to actually change anything.
What I think was much scarier was both Trump’s phone call to Kemp trying to get the necessary votes in Georgia by whatever means necessary and his effort to get a slate of fake electors selected in Michigan. These were both real attempts to steal the election that could have succeeded if more officials had been MAGA rather than people of principle.
And I will tell you, speaking only for myself personally, that if a state legislature ever uses its powers to override the votes of the people in the state to throw its electors to its preferred candidate over the will of the voters, I would consider it a coup (even if technically constitutional) and would consider it legitimate to fight back by any and all means (including taking up arms if necessary).
And I think this gets to the real danger of Trump. American is a constitutional republic, but it’s not simply the constitution that has assured peaceful transfer of powers. It’s that we have norms. It’s that candidates for office, once they have exhausted their legal remedies for contesting an election, have agreed to concede and call for their supporters to stop fighting the election and become the loyal opposition. The ultimate example of this, of course, being Al Gore just 24 years ago. Can you imagine if the situation were reversed today? If Trump were to lose an election because supporters of Biden stopped a recount in a state where Biden’s brother was the governor? But 24 years ago, for the good of the country and despite the fact that it was terrible for him personally, when Gore was faced with this situation he agreed to stop the fight once the Supreme Court had made its final ruling.
I do believe that the way Trump has flagrantly violated this norm is immensely dangerous. And it’s all the worse that his supporters back him in this, despite the fact that his the kind of man that Matt Yglesias describes here: https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-orange-man-is-bad
It is refreshing to hear you reject the Trump=Hitler equation. No matter how much one dislikes him, it's still baffling to make the comparison; and people have been doing it since well before January 6. I'm curious if it is simply an ignorance of history. There may be, for instance, a whole generation of young voters who grew up on social media, who don't even know who Hitler was. They might think insulting people on Twitter is actually a Hitler-like move.
Trump has a big ego but I do believe he cares about America. I recently saw a clip from the early 1990s where Trump was on one of the big talk shows (Oprah, I think), talking about how Americans were getting screwed by overseas manufacturing, demanding something be done about it. (The host, seemingly impressed by this off-script rant, asked if Trump would consider running for president someday!) But I get how his ego can distract from any pro-America sensibilities he does have. He has become, unavoidably, a politician; but when people say he's different (or at least *was* different), they mean he's not a career politician. He was never a congressman, senator, or governor; thus he never had those years of "refinement," learning how to be phony, brown-nose, lie with a smile, &c. He's a straight shooter.
I think the Georgia phone call is similar to Jan. 6, in that people overreacted as if the country was in peril, when in both cases nothing (or very little) actually happened. As with Jan. 6, don't you think Trump could have done more, if he were really the evil dictator? Perhaps send some of his gun-toting supporters to Atlanta and demand Kemp's removal, or even his life? (This is just a hypothetical; I know you've clarified Trump is not on par with the evil dictators.) In both cases, Trump was very loud, but it was only words. He's actually followed the rules. He left office Jan. 20th. He's said "Find me votes," but he hasn't actually produces his own votes out of thin air. He was simply saying, in his verbose way, "Make sure you've counted all the votes properly." But again, I can clearly see how Trump's opponents interpret it as trying to steal the election. I'm sure many on the other side would accuse Biden of doing the same, if the scenario were reversed.
Thanks for the discussion.
Sorry. Having trouble resisting the urge to make one last point. Your bar what constitutes a threat to democracy seems incredibly high to me Jesse. You seem to be saying that anything short of a military coup doesn't qualify.
To be clear, I'm not worried about a military coup; I trust the military not to get involved domestically. What I worry about is the Orbanization of America (https://www.illiberalism.org/dismantling-democracy-the-orbanization-of-hungary/), which is what I genuinely think Trump would try to do.
Finally, if you think Trump's call to Kemp was his way of saying "make sure you have counted all the votes properly", I don't know what to tell you. It's like believing that Tony was telling Christopher to help these guys get a suit (https://youtu.be/9va2KKNCg4o?si=aPjP1Ht1Kf0Die_0&t=261).
Ha, I understand.
But I think my view is plausible until proven otherwise--that is, until Trump actually takes power in an unlawful manner. He doesn't appear to be doing this, as we are now close to the next presidential election. Or, until the Orbanization of America. Maybe that will happen, but until it does, I stand by my statement: Trump's complaints have been mostly hot air.
To be fair, Republicans do this too. With the elections of Biden, Obama, and probably every Democrat before them, Republicans have made sky-is-falling, world-is-ending statements. Yet we are still here. 2020 obviously is freshest in mind, when Trump and others claimed that a Biden victory would destroy America; it would fall to socialism, China, fill in the blank. Now they are doing the same here: "2024 is the most pivotal, important election in our history."