Your discussion on the degree to which culture is shaped by the incentives and pressures of the community at large was powerful and really helped me identify a discomfort I have with conservative ideas on subjects like black on black crime. It was always easy for me to identify what was wrong with the left’s response to the problem. They seemed to want the credit for saying the right things and showing sympathy, without having to do any of the hard work necessary to help solve the problem. And often times their sympathetic words were hard to distinguish from bigotry. Treating young black men like helpless pawns, who should not be subject to expectations or responsible for their actions doesn’t feel right. On the flip side, conservatives will often go for the best of both worlds also. They will wash their hands of the problem entirely and then claim moral superiority because, unlike the left, they are “respecting the agency” of these young black men. That always felt like a copout to me. Recognizing that someone was born behind the 8 ball is not akin to stealing their agency. What this discussion helped me realize is that identifying culture as a driver of disfunction doesn’t make you racist, but it also doesn’t relieve you of all responsibility just because you weren’t born into that particular culture. If you can admit that historical oppression has largely created the conditions for generational poverty, hopelessness and violence, even if you believe culture is the most significant current driver, then it is your duty as a citizen to be a part of the solution.
Let us assume it is a “duty” as a citizen to be part of the solution to the injustices in the past that dominant societal factions created in the US and are now contributing to problems in the present. A Vietnamese immigrant comes to the US. He becomes a citizen. He lives in Irvine California. What “duty” do you expect him to have to the gang occupied territories of Chicago? What concrete actions do you feel he ought to do to meet this duty?
How do you feel that you are part of the solution? What are you doing?
Why would Vietnamese ancestry matter? Is the idea that he has no duty because he isn’t white, so not tied to the sins of the racist past, and also not black so not part of the dysfunctional culture that perpetuates poverty and violence? Should someone’s race, and the race of the people experiencing the problems factor into how much they care?
This Vietnamese immigrant is an American citizen. Black poverty and violence are American problems. So he has the same duties every American has in regards to American problems. Try to be part of the solution and make the country a better place.
I don’t think anyone should wash their hands of an American problem and feel justified because its not their culture.
“Part of the solution” is pretty vague and covers a lot of territory. That was intentional. In a practical sense there are many problems in this world and for some people its all they can do to just get by. I wouldn’t pretend to be in a position to lay out what concrete actions every individual should take. My post wasn’t an attempt to call out people who aren’t doing enough. It was to establish that blaming black culture does not mean American culture in general, and non-black Americans are off the hook.
Do you think “conservatives” who claim that some American problems stem from culture do not want to make the country a better place?
There is significant difference between believing that every citizen has a duty to make this country a better place and the duty for some Americans to redeem the sins of some Americans past. I think the former most “conservatives” actually would agree with. Remember those “freedom is free” bumper stickers?
As for the Vietnamese immigrant, it could just as well be a Russian immigrant, or a Swedish immigrant. And the latter two are “white.” Their race isn’t essential to my question, it is rather their proximity from the historical oppression that may have contributed to the problem.
I agree with you that if culture is a primary factor in dysfunction(rather than, say, racism) it doesn’t necessarily absolve Americans of any moral responsibility for the problems culture is contributing to -- but it certainly changes what sort of responsibility they actually have.
And getting back to the Vietnamese immigrant -- their proximity to the historical oppression and the actual dysfunction may put them in a place where focusing on *that* problem in America might not be particularly valuable. There are lots of problems in America, and we can’t all focus on all of them.
It would be perfectly right for many people not to concern themselves with the cultural dysfunction of some black people. Some people can wash their hands of that American problem -- not particularly because it’s not their culture, but because everyone can’t be a significant part of the solution to every American problem. Sometimes, people clamoring to be part of a solution when they haven’t researched it much can actually make the problem worse -- BLM being a great example.
—“Do you think “conservatives” who claim that some American problems stem from culture do not want to make the country a better place?”
No. Thats far too broad of a statement. I tried to be specific in my original comment. I was directing it at conservatives who follow this line of thinking - “Culture is causing the problem. It’’s not my culture. Therefor, it’s not my problem.” This same line of thinking is also sometimes used in an attempt to eliminate racism and discrimination as drivers. I don’t think it does that. I am not against an analysis of culture to identify what is driving the dysfunction and using that information to shape solutions. I just don’t like when people analyze culture like they are an insurance adjuster, looking for a reason to deny a claim.
I actually tend to agree with conservative solutions and think most left wing solutions don’t account for human nature and will backfire. I know plenty of conservatives who point to culture, but also want to be part of the solution.
—“As for the Vietnamese immigrant, it could just as well be a Russian immigrant, or a Swedish immigrant. And the latter two are “white.” Their race isn’t essential to my question, it is rather their proximity from the historical oppression that may have contributed to the problem.”
I figured thats why you used a recent Vietnamese immigrant as an example. To separate the person from white and black Americans with deep roots stretching back to Jim Crow or slavery. Proximity is an interesting question once a generation has passed and its tough to draw a straight line. It might be a far fetched utopian vision, but I would love to eventually be n a country where that doesn’t matter. Americans all work to solve American problems regardless of race/ethnicity/recency of citizenship. Where that Vietnamese immigrant would care as much about Chicago as he would if the people suffering were Vietnamese-Americans. Thats a lofty goal because all people, myself included, have tribal tendencies.
The last 2 paragraphs of your response I tried to cover with - “In a practical sense there are many problems in this world and for some people its all they can do to just get by.”
Certainly it’s just logistically impossible to work on all problems. You have to have a priority list based on your personal situation, which is why I declined to lay out concrete actions the Vietnamese immigrant should take. By duty I meant it in a more general sense, like a civic duty. Not as in, you must submit a timecard and be judged on how much time you’ve spent trying to eliminate black poverty.
Your discussion on the degree to which culture is shaped by the incentives and pressures of the community at large was powerful and really helped me identify a discomfort I have with conservative ideas on subjects like black on black crime. It was always easy for me to identify what was wrong with the left’s response to the problem. They seemed to want the credit for saying the right things and showing sympathy, without having to do any of the hard work necessary to help solve the problem. And often times their sympathetic words were hard to distinguish from bigotry. Treating young black men like helpless pawns, who should not be subject to expectations or responsible for their actions doesn’t feel right. On the flip side, conservatives will often go for the best of both worlds also. They will wash their hands of the problem entirely and then claim moral superiority because, unlike the left, they are “respecting the agency” of these young black men. That always felt like a copout to me. Recognizing that someone was born behind the 8 ball is not akin to stealing their agency. What this discussion helped me realize is that identifying culture as a driver of disfunction doesn’t make you racist, but it also doesn’t relieve you of all responsibility just because you weren’t born into that particular culture. If you can admit that historical oppression has largely created the conditions for generational poverty, hopelessness and violence, even if you believe culture is the most significant current driver, then it is your duty as a citizen to be a part of the solution.
Let us assume it is a “duty” as a citizen to be part of the solution to the injustices in the past that dominant societal factions created in the US and are now contributing to problems in the present. A Vietnamese immigrant comes to the US. He becomes a citizen. He lives in Irvine California. What “duty” do you expect him to have to the gang occupied territories of Chicago? What concrete actions do you feel he ought to do to meet this duty?
How do you feel that you are part of the solution? What are you doing?
Why would Vietnamese ancestry matter? Is the idea that he has no duty because he isn’t white, so not tied to the sins of the racist past, and also not black so not part of the dysfunctional culture that perpetuates poverty and violence? Should someone’s race, and the race of the people experiencing the problems factor into how much they care?
This Vietnamese immigrant is an American citizen. Black poverty and violence are American problems. So he has the same duties every American has in regards to American problems. Try to be part of the solution and make the country a better place.
I don’t think anyone should wash their hands of an American problem and feel justified because its not their culture.
“Part of the solution” is pretty vague and covers a lot of territory. That was intentional. In a practical sense there are many problems in this world and for some people its all they can do to just get by. I wouldn’t pretend to be in a position to lay out what concrete actions every individual should take. My post wasn’t an attempt to call out people who aren’t doing enough. It was to establish that blaming black culture does not mean American culture in general, and non-black Americans are off the hook.
Do you think “conservatives” who claim that some American problems stem from culture do not want to make the country a better place?
There is significant difference between believing that every citizen has a duty to make this country a better place and the duty for some Americans to redeem the sins of some Americans past. I think the former most “conservatives” actually would agree with. Remember those “freedom is free” bumper stickers?
As for the Vietnamese immigrant, it could just as well be a Russian immigrant, or a Swedish immigrant. And the latter two are “white.” Their race isn’t essential to my question, it is rather their proximity from the historical oppression that may have contributed to the problem.
I agree with you that if culture is a primary factor in dysfunction(rather than, say, racism) it doesn’t necessarily absolve Americans of any moral responsibility for the problems culture is contributing to -- but it certainly changes what sort of responsibility they actually have.
And getting back to the Vietnamese immigrant -- their proximity to the historical oppression and the actual dysfunction may put them in a place where focusing on *that* problem in America might not be particularly valuable. There are lots of problems in America, and we can’t all focus on all of them.
It would be perfectly right for many people not to concern themselves with the cultural dysfunction of some black people. Some people can wash their hands of that American problem -- not particularly because it’s not their culture, but because everyone can’t be a significant part of the solution to every American problem. Sometimes, people clamoring to be part of a solution when they haven’t researched it much can actually make the problem worse -- BLM being a great example.
—“Do you think “conservatives” who claim that some American problems stem from culture do not want to make the country a better place?”
No. Thats far too broad of a statement. I tried to be specific in my original comment. I was directing it at conservatives who follow this line of thinking - “Culture is causing the problem. It’’s not my culture. Therefor, it’s not my problem.” This same line of thinking is also sometimes used in an attempt to eliminate racism and discrimination as drivers. I don’t think it does that. I am not against an analysis of culture to identify what is driving the dysfunction and using that information to shape solutions. I just don’t like when people analyze culture like they are an insurance adjuster, looking for a reason to deny a claim.
I actually tend to agree with conservative solutions and think most left wing solutions don’t account for human nature and will backfire. I know plenty of conservatives who point to culture, but also want to be part of the solution.
—“As for the Vietnamese immigrant, it could just as well be a Russian immigrant, or a Swedish immigrant. And the latter two are “white.” Their race isn’t essential to my question, it is rather their proximity from the historical oppression that may have contributed to the problem.”
I figured thats why you used a recent Vietnamese immigrant as an example. To separate the person from white and black Americans with deep roots stretching back to Jim Crow or slavery. Proximity is an interesting question once a generation has passed and its tough to draw a straight line. It might be a far fetched utopian vision, but I would love to eventually be n a country where that doesn’t matter. Americans all work to solve American problems regardless of race/ethnicity/recency of citizenship. Where that Vietnamese immigrant would care as much about Chicago as he would if the people suffering were Vietnamese-Americans. Thats a lofty goal because all people, myself included, have tribal tendencies.
The last 2 paragraphs of your response I tried to cover with - “In a practical sense there are many problems in this world and for some people its all they can do to just get by.”
Certainly it’s just logistically impossible to work on all problems. You have to have a priority list based on your personal situation, which is why I declined to lay out concrete actions the Vietnamese immigrant should take. By duty I meant it in a more general sense, like a civic duty. Not as in, you must submit a timecard and be judged on how much time you’ve spent trying to eliminate black poverty.