I’m talking specifically about the people who are burning American flags, chanting “death to America” and claiming American is systematically racist and irreparably broken
Well, fair enough. I’ve never met any of flag burning, death to America types. (Although flag code says to burn, or bury, a flag if it is destroyed and that is supposedly the origin of burning the flag as a protest). But claiming America is systemically racist and irreparably broken is pretty common in liberal circles. It doesn’t mean they hate America, it means they are disappointed in the difference between their idealistic view of America and their observed reality of it. They just want America to do better… I have heard the same (obviously not about systemic racism, instead systemic fraud, deep state, administrative state, etc) from right-wingers when they perceived that they were out of power or that the system was acting against their perceived interests.
I (potentially) agree that a lot of the rhetoric is kind of disconnected from reality…
Again we’re largely in agreement. I recently heard Victor Davis Hanson say something to the effect of we shouldn’t compare America to heaven, we should compare it to other countries on earth.
I’m not disagreeing that America could do better but I am arguing that it does better than anywhere else. This is the single most successful multicultural nation in the history of the world, and the fact that we don’t go around killing each other in large numbers is remarkable. I mean I live in NYC and interracial crime is almost non existent.
Go to countries in Africa and the Middle East and see what happens there.
So again I’d say what’s lacking is the larger context. The world is flawed, people are flawed. I don’t live in the world as I would like it to be, I live in the world as it is. If you haven’t read Thomas Sowell’s book ‘a conflict of visions’ I think you’ll enjoy it.
For the sake of argument let’s say I believed that America was systematically racist and rotten to its core. Do you think that the way people are going about it is helping? Do you think it could have any outcome other than pushback from white people? I’m white and my wife is black. I get nothing but respect and civility in the black neighborhood we live in. But I can tell you that I work in a large corporation and I’m tired of hearing from them, the politicians, and Lebron James (Lebron was a joke comment) that I’m racist by virtue of being white. It’s disgusting and it will lead to a strong backlash. People will only listen to that nonsense for so long.
If you’re (the general you, not you specifically) aren’t happy with aspects of American life, ask yourself what you can do to positively affect change at the level of your community. The governments job is not to get involved in this stuff, and I think people should take personally responsibility. If you’re a black guy and you think blacks are in their position because of white people and historical factors, then as Glenn Loury himself says ‘nobody is coming to save you’. You hustle in the right way, you take a shit job and you work your ass off and make yourself indispensable, then you move up and you come back to your community and your share your knowledge. Maybe you pitch in and franchise a wing stop or something and you give jobs to some in the community.
There are things that can be done that are more productive than burning shit down. We elected a black president twice, so anything is possible if we stop squabbling over whose fault it is - that’s easy, it was the fault of people in the past and I don’t judge them because I don’t know what it was really like living back then.
I totally agree! I think the problem is people don’t know what’s really going on. White rich liberals mostly don’t know black people except from books and media. And there seems to be a market for a narrative about white supremacy. I come from a racist family, I know it exists. I grew up in a very diverse area with almost no “white supremacy”, people were bigoted for sure but mostly not about race. You can hear, still, stories about black people being denied loans white people would get (I understand that it is legal to include race somehow in credit scores, or other loan decisions which if actually true seems pretty yucky). It’s just too hard to know what is like to be someone else. I may look at you and only see your advantages, and you may look at me and only see mine… how would we know?
Also, there are misunderstandings. My son at age let’s say 8, made buddies with a younger black kid at a class. My son tousled his hair affectionately like he would to his little brother… and the kids parents freaked out. So then we had to teach the poor kid that culturally that is seen as racist because he feels he can touch this kid… blah blah blah. Ultimately, we taught him to be racist to avoid seeming racist, and that seemed icky… I know you shouldn’t go around touching people… except… some people are affectionate… but boundaries… but humanity. Sigh. I don’t know.
I notice you keep talking about racism as it relates to white supremacy. I know that Ibram Kedhi had the nerve to suggest changing the definition of racism to say it only applies to white people because black people cant be racist. I’ve never heard such disgusting nonsense and I hope that’s not your belief too?
As I see it, as long as we have people we will have racists and in most cases it’s ignorance, like you say a lot of people don’t know people outside of their race on a personal basis.
As long as people aren’t acting out their racism in a way which impacts on someone else’s rights, then I say leave them to it, it’s their problem. It’s their right to be ignorant and it’s your right to not have anything to do with them. It’s also their problem as they’re the ones with the shitty attitude. You can’t change human nature, just work with it.
As far as the stuff with your son and his friend, I think that sounds like parents being too overprotective in a culture which is currently too focused on race. There isn’t actually anything racist about touching someone’s hair, and if the boy has no issue with it then there’s also no problem in terms of personal space. I think it’s likely that the kid felt uncomfortable in terms of personal space and when he told his parents they overreacted and called it racist.
In my opinion it’s best to let the kids fix that stuff out for themselves, they’ll set the rules and boundaries and I don’t think parents should get involved unless the kids ask it there is obvious signs of bullying. Too much nanny culture these days especially with boys.
No, I don’t like the redefinition of racism. I distinguish white supremacy as a separate thing because it is a real idea (and to my mind a dumb one) that white people are better and would do better if we were left to ourselves. I believe everyone can be, and to some degree, is racist. And bigoted in a lot of other ways too, for the record. I’d like to say it’s all ignorance, but I know sometimes it is because you just get a whole lot of data that creates an unfortunate connection. I think it is inherent in our pattern recognizing brain.
I also think other people’s racism is none of my business. I think people should be judged by their actions. I do think a lot of the problem with race we have now, is that a lot of white people were ignorant to the racism that does exist, and when confronted by it they decided to believe in the worst case scenario. I know I thought my racist relatives were unusual until some of the more nasty anti-Obama tropes got so mainstream. Now, honestly I don’t know what to believe. I live in an affluent and very white area and “rough” and “diverse” are used as synonyms. I admit I am uncomfortable with it, but how much of that is based on observable fact and how much is racism? I definitely don’t think it’s fair to go around calling out racism, even when it isn’t there… maybe it’s really classism or some other distinction.
I got kind of rambling before, but my point was that if you think maybe you are a victim you can find plenty of evidence to support it. There’s no real way to disprove it. The kid in my story, who wasn’t upset, it was just his parents, was my kind of random low stakes example. I have heard a lot of black people talk about people touching their hair… that it is white supremacy (entitlement/ownership). I have had lots of people touch my hair, usually without asking and in questionable circumstances, so I’m inclined to chalk it up to different boundaries and people generally being inclined to touch things without thinking about it too much. But I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people being thoughtless, rather than malicious. That’s just me.
I’m talking specifically about the people who are burning American flags, chanting “death to America” and claiming American is systematically racist and irreparably broken
Well, fair enough. I’ve never met any of flag burning, death to America types. (Although flag code says to burn, or bury, a flag if it is destroyed and that is supposedly the origin of burning the flag as a protest). But claiming America is systemically racist and irreparably broken is pretty common in liberal circles. It doesn’t mean they hate America, it means they are disappointed in the difference between their idealistic view of America and their observed reality of it. They just want America to do better… I have heard the same (obviously not about systemic racism, instead systemic fraud, deep state, administrative state, etc) from right-wingers when they perceived that they were out of power or that the system was acting against their perceived interests.
I (potentially) agree that a lot of the rhetoric is kind of disconnected from reality…
Again we’re largely in agreement. I recently heard Victor Davis Hanson say something to the effect of we shouldn’t compare America to heaven, we should compare it to other countries on earth.
I’m not disagreeing that America could do better but I am arguing that it does better than anywhere else. This is the single most successful multicultural nation in the history of the world, and the fact that we don’t go around killing each other in large numbers is remarkable. I mean I live in NYC and interracial crime is almost non existent.
Go to countries in Africa and the Middle East and see what happens there.
So again I’d say what’s lacking is the larger context. The world is flawed, people are flawed. I don’t live in the world as I would like it to be, I live in the world as it is. If you haven’t read Thomas Sowell’s book ‘a conflict of visions’ I think you’ll enjoy it.
For the sake of argument let’s say I believed that America was systematically racist and rotten to its core. Do you think that the way people are going about it is helping? Do you think it could have any outcome other than pushback from white people? I’m white and my wife is black. I get nothing but respect and civility in the black neighborhood we live in. But I can tell you that I work in a large corporation and I’m tired of hearing from them, the politicians, and Lebron James (Lebron was a joke comment) that I’m racist by virtue of being white. It’s disgusting and it will lead to a strong backlash. People will only listen to that nonsense for so long.
If you’re (the general you, not you specifically) aren’t happy with aspects of American life, ask yourself what you can do to positively affect change at the level of your community. The governments job is not to get involved in this stuff, and I think people should take personally responsibility. If you’re a black guy and you think blacks are in their position because of white people and historical factors, then as Glenn Loury himself says ‘nobody is coming to save you’. You hustle in the right way, you take a shit job and you work your ass off and make yourself indispensable, then you move up and you come back to your community and your share your knowledge. Maybe you pitch in and franchise a wing stop or something and you give jobs to some in the community.
There are things that can be done that are more productive than burning shit down. We elected a black president twice, so anything is possible if we stop squabbling over whose fault it is - that’s easy, it was the fault of people in the past and I don’t judge them because I don’t know what it was really like living back then.
Let’s just move forward, there are always choices
I totally agree! I think the problem is people don’t know what’s really going on. White rich liberals mostly don’t know black people except from books and media. And there seems to be a market for a narrative about white supremacy. I come from a racist family, I know it exists. I grew up in a very diverse area with almost no “white supremacy”, people were bigoted for sure but mostly not about race. You can hear, still, stories about black people being denied loans white people would get (I understand that it is legal to include race somehow in credit scores, or other loan decisions which if actually true seems pretty yucky). It’s just too hard to know what is like to be someone else. I may look at you and only see your advantages, and you may look at me and only see mine… how would we know?
Also, there are misunderstandings. My son at age let’s say 8, made buddies with a younger black kid at a class. My son tousled his hair affectionately like he would to his little brother… and the kids parents freaked out. So then we had to teach the poor kid that culturally that is seen as racist because he feels he can touch this kid… blah blah blah. Ultimately, we taught him to be racist to avoid seeming racist, and that seemed icky… I know you shouldn’t go around touching people… except… some people are affectionate… but boundaries… but humanity. Sigh. I don’t know.
I notice you keep talking about racism as it relates to white supremacy. I know that Ibram Kedhi had the nerve to suggest changing the definition of racism to say it only applies to white people because black people cant be racist. I’ve never heard such disgusting nonsense and I hope that’s not your belief too?
As I see it, as long as we have people we will have racists and in most cases it’s ignorance, like you say a lot of people don’t know people outside of their race on a personal basis.
As long as people aren’t acting out their racism in a way which impacts on someone else’s rights, then I say leave them to it, it’s their problem. It’s their right to be ignorant and it’s your right to not have anything to do with them. It’s also their problem as they’re the ones with the shitty attitude. You can’t change human nature, just work with it.
As far as the stuff with your son and his friend, I think that sounds like parents being too overprotective in a culture which is currently too focused on race. There isn’t actually anything racist about touching someone’s hair, and if the boy has no issue with it then there’s also no problem in terms of personal space. I think it’s likely that the kid felt uncomfortable in terms of personal space and when he told his parents they overreacted and called it racist.
In my opinion it’s best to let the kids fix that stuff out for themselves, they’ll set the rules and boundaries and I don’t think parents should get involved unless the kids ask it there is obvious signs of bullying. Too much nanny culture these days especially with boys.
That my two cents, for whatever it’s worth
No, I don’t like the redefinition of racism. I distinguish white supremacy as a separate thing because it is a real idea (and to my mind a dumb one) that white people are better and would do better if we were left to ourselves. I believe everyone can be, and to some degree, is racist. And bigoted in a lot of other ways too, for the record. I’d like to say it’s all ignorance, but I know sometimes it is because you just get a whole lot of data that creates an unfortunate connection. I think it is inherent in our pattern recognizing brain.
I also think other people’s racism is none of my business. I think people should be judged by their actions. I do think a lot of the problem with race we have now, is that a lot of white people were ignorant to the racism that does exist, and when confronted by it they decided to believe in the worst case scenario. I know I thought my racist relatives were unusual until some of the more nasty anti-Obama tropes got so mainstream. Now, honestly I don’t know what to believe. I live in an affluent and very white area and “rough” and “diverse” are used as synonyms. I admit I am uncomfortable with it, but how much of that is based on observable fact and how much is racism? I definitely don’t think it’s fair to go around calling out racism, even when it isn’t there… maybe it’s really classism or some other distinction.
I got kind of rambling before, but my point was that if you think maybe you are a victim you can find plenty of evidence to support it. There’s no real way to disprove it. The kid in my story, who wasn’t upset, it was just his parents, was my kind of random low stakes example. I have heard a lot of black people talk about people touching their hair… that it is white supremacy (entitlement/ownership). I have had lots of people touch my hair, usually without asking and in questionable circumstances, so I’m inclined to chalk it up to different boundaries and people generally being inclined to touch things without thinking about it too much. But I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people being thoughtless, rather than malicious. That’s just me.