Perhaps predictably, my conversation with Briahna Joy Gray has raised some hackles among TGS commenters. That’s not the worst thing in the world! Who would I be if I wasn’t stirring the pot a little?
I did receive an email from my semi-regular correspondent Clifton Roscoe that I think lays out many of the objections of people in the comment section and my inbox, with links and graphics to boot. With his permission, I present it here in lightly edited form.
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Dear Professor Loury,
This may qualify as a “Dear Glenn” email, but I'll do my best to keep it concise.
While I thought your conversation with Briahna Joy Gray was a good one overall, there were times during the discussion when minutiae got in the way of the big picture. That was especially true when the conversation covered black culture and the impact it has on the racial gaps that are commonly discussed, the pros and cons of capitalism, and Black America's internal conflicts when it comes to how we feel about our country.
I'm going to choose my words carefully. While I give Briahna Joy Gray props for her two Ivy League degrees and being a good debater, she's all hat and no cattle when it comes to her actual experiences and her data sources. Let's start with her assertion that black women are the best educated demographic in America, which would appear to refute anyone claiming that black culture doesn’t value education.
You chose not to push back on this, but the source of her assertion is questionable at best. Data from the US Census Bureau suggests that it's flat our wrong. This piece reflects Gray’s assertion. And here’s a representative excerpt from HBCU Buzz:
Black women surpassed any other group based upon race and gender in 2014 by having the highest percentage that is the most educated. Reports by the National Center of Education Statistics as reported by the US Census state that black women have the highest numbers for current enrollment in college.
Black And Married With Kids posted a YouTube video last spring titled, “Black Women Top This List.” This video explains the significance behind the 9.7% mark that states that black women are #1. Hosted by Janks Morton, he questions media’s reactions to this data and states that this history in the making. “I’m here to tell you today that African-American women and African-American men today are holding up the lamp that has always been a testament to blacks in this country. We have always valued education.”
But data from the US Census Bureau tell a different story.
Here are the percentages of various demographic groups, 18 and older, with bachelor's degrees as of 2019:
All Americans: Men - 20.8%, Women - 21.7%
White Alone: Men - 21.2%, Women - 22.1%
Black Alone: Men - 15.1%, Women - 15.8%
Hispanic (of any race): Men - 10.8%, Women - 12.9%
Asian Alone: Men - 30.8%, Women - 33.3%
Black women are less likely to have bachelor's degrees than the overall population. So who are we kidding? The joke's on anybody who buys this BS or otherwise allows it to go unchallenged.
Let's give Briahna Joy Gray the benefit of the doubt and say that she was “imprecise” with her claim. Let's look at young black women and see if they're on the front end of a trend that hasn't manifested itself among the broader population.
Here are the percentages of people between the ages of 25 and 29 who have bachelor's degrees by gender:
All Americans: Men - 28.0%, Women - 30.7%
White Alone: Men - 28.3%, Women - 32.2%
Black Alone: Men - 24.7%, Women - 21.0%
Hispanics (of any race): Men - 16.0%, Women - 18.5%
Asian Alone: Men - 39.6%, Women - 44.2%
Younger folks are more likely to have college degrees than their elders, but the overall racial gaps seem to worsen if you compare black women between the ages of 25 and 29 with most of their peers. I was surprised that black men between the ages of 25 and 29 were more likely to have bachelor's degrees than their black female peers, so I checked the numbers a couple of times. Data from the National Center for Education Statistics suggests that black women are more likely to earn bachelor's degrees than black men.
It's possible that the US Census Bureau's data is wrong, but I'm not in a position to argue with their numbers. Either way, the claim that black women are the most highly educated demographic in America is demonstrably false if you compare the percentages of various demographic groups who have bachelor's degrees. Numbers aside, this claim never passed the sniff test. It's another false narrative.
Minutiae aside and at least one false narrative debunked, let's talk the big picture. Let's start with culture. I find it helpful to start these kinds of conversations with a definition of terms. Here’s an excerpt of a useful definition of “culture”:
Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, encompassing language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. ... Thus, it can be seen as the growth of a group identity fostered by social patterns unique to the group.
I would argue that culture is a factor in almost every racial gap that's talked about today. Reasonable people can dispute the degree to which culture factors into these gaps or whether the residual influence of slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. impact culture. But that's a different debate.
Let's start with violent crime. Anybody who's been paying attention knows that culture is a major driver of violent crime when it comes to young black folks. Tio Hardiman, the founder of Violence Interrupters in Chicago, talks openly about the role that culture plays in the violence that plagues Chicago. Here's a quote from a recent Mary Mitchell column in the Chicago Sun-Times:
“First and foremost, the mass shootings have become fashionable for some of the guys involved in gang conflict,” said Tio Hardiman, founder of Violence Interrupters, an anti-violence organization that claims to have mediated 40 conflicts so far this year.
He said something similar and specifically used the word “culture” when he appeared on Roland Martin's podcast recently.
Hardiman ties culture to the mass shootings that are common in Chicago these days and the high number of carjackings being perpetrated by black teens. Roland Martin and the progressives on his panel sidestep what Hardiman says was the “elephant in the room.” But what person of goodwill can ignore what Hardiman is saying?
The concept of violence interrupters is a black thing. Maybe other racial groups have a need for these types of organizations, but I don't hear about them. I don't see big city mayors emphasizing the importance of violence interrupters when they announce violence reduction plans, which are almost always geared towards black neighborhoods instead of those primarily occupied by whites, Latinos, or Asians.
Could the broader society do more to help Black America? Sure, but they can't fix the fundamentals that retard black progress. We should never lose sight of this basic truth. White folks can't save us from ourselves.
Let's shift gears to capitalism. Who the hell is Briahna Joy Gray kidding? What aspect of her life would be better if America was a socialist or communist nation? What socialist or communist nation created the technologies that she takes for granted? What socialist or communist nation has created more wealth? What other economic system has lifted more people out of poverty around the world? What economic system has solved more of the world's problems? What socialist or communist nation led the way in the development of COVID-19 vaccines or any of the other major medical advances of the past century? I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Capitalism has flaws, and some argue that various forms of inequality are more of an issue in America than in countries with more robust safety nets or countries with socialist or communist economic orientations. That's true. But most of those nations are not yielding good results. People often come to America from those nations in search of more freedom and a chance at a better way of life. We should never lose sight of this fundamental truth.
Concerns about various forms of inequality have to be balanced with reality. We could temporarily eliminate poverty, for example, if the government abandoned any sense of fiscal responsibility and wrote big checks to every poor person in America. We'd be economic toast afterwards, but we could feel good about ourselves for a hot minute. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that Briahna Joy Gray lives for that hot minute. I don't think she fully appreciates the way the world works and how the pros and cons of economic systems manifest themselves over extended periods of time.
Last topic: Black patriotism and how we feel about our place in America.
Black folks have always had mixed feelings about our place in America. We crave validation as being the equals of our fellow citizens. But then we go out of our way to denigrate our country and question the validity of its ideals. We run hot and cold about America. It has always been fashionable for black folks to find issues with America. That won't change in my lifetime.
What's happening today, however, is worrisome. There's a level of negativity within Black America that's unhealthy and borne of false narratives. Consider this recent polling from Gallup. And here are some graphs that speak volumes:
The trend in sentiments displayed in this graph make no sense if you look at the black unemployment rate and black poverty rate, both of which which reached an all-time low in 2019. By contrast, a growing percentage of black folks thought that the job market was unfair.
The black poverty rate reached an all time low in 2019 as well.
You wouldn't know any of this if you only listened to the black folks with three names, the “educated” black folks who promote false narratives and constantly wallow in victimology.
To make a long story short, there are good reasons for black folks to have reservations about America. But we've done ourselves a disservice by accepting racial snake oil at face value. We're stuck on stupid, and we're paying a heavy price for it.
I don't want you to construe any of the above as a criticism of you. You're a better debater than I'll ever be. You had to respond in the moment, and I had the luxury to think about your discussion with Briahna Joy Gray, to outline a counterargument in my head, and to type out my arguments and supporting data sources.
Part of the challenge for me, and perhaps for you, is that I've been immersed in this stuff for a long time. Things that I think are obvious aren't always obvious to others, and I'm sometimes caught off guard if I have to revisit topics that I thought were settled long ago. I also tend to give people the benefit of the doubt when they come at me with “facts” that are total BS. I don't always push back as vigorously as I should. I've begun to keep a mental crib sheet of data sources to refute false “facts,” but it's a burden I sometimes resent having to bear.
Keep up the good work!
Clifton Roscoe
Ms. Gray seems to lack understanding of Economics and Comparative Economic Systems. Case in point: Sweden was a 'socialist country' several decades ago, but over time they discovered that a generous economic system was discouraging work, effort and and innovation. Decades ago the country had to update its 'socialism' to achieve a more dynamic society. They do have a safety net BUT they also expect citizens to work and contribute their fair share of effort to the country. It's a lovely country but not all the utopian 'honey & cream' that American Leftist think it is. People, like Ms. Gary really should get out and travel a bit as she sounds provincial.
Thank you Clifton and Glenn.
I appreciated that you engaged with Ms. Gray, and that she attempted to engage with you.
I had many points where I was shocked at the ignorance and arrogance of her stances at certain points.
Clifton has done a far greater review than I could engage in, but quickly, two points.
First, of course, she trotted out the "real socialism has never been tried" canard. If America was just nicer to the USSR or Cuba or Venezuela or Red China, then we would have seen the thousand flowers blossom, and the establishment of the socialist paradise on Earth. That is simply ivory tower blather. If a superior economic system is going to get out and compete, it has to win. It does not depend on other countries or systems being "nice" to it. Also, the proof is in the pudding. How many purges and atrocities came from the establishment of these would-be paradises? How many refugees have fled, and continue to flee to the United States and other places? She has no example of successful socialism (or communism), something she thinks should be established here, in our country, first by trying to move towards Nordic social welfare, but then go further, and that is a dangerously wrong-headed direction that has no real world support. It's the path that leads to Red Guards and Commisars, gulags, purges, starvation, stagnation and shortages.
But sure, it has never been tried.
Also, her push back against the importance of the United States in World War Two came from a place of exceptional (and, might I suggest possibly willful) ignorance. She compared the sacrifice of the United States to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and, while not wanting to devalue the human lives lost, clearly thought that the Soviet losses (which she put at 27M (a number available on Wikipedia) and others have put at "over 20M" but disputed, and other researches have stated as 25M (https://daviscenter.fas.harvard.edu/insights/soviet-role-world-war-ii-realities-and-myths)) were much greater.
What this simplistic analysis elides is the fact that the Soviets were deeply complicit in the rearming of Germany (https://www.newswise.com/articles/historian-offers-first-deep-dive-into-secret-german-soviet-alliance-that-laid-groundwork-for-wwii; https://warontherocks.com/2016/06/sowing-the-wind-the-first-soviet-german-military-pact-and-the-origins-of-world-war-ii/). After the ascension of the Nazi regime, the Soviets signed a non-aggression pact, and trade and technical support continued to flow at an increased rate between the aggressive and murderous Nazi government and the aggressive and murderous Soviet government (https://www.persee.fr/doc/cmr_1252-6576_1995_num_36_1_2425).
The USSR helped build the Nazi war machine. The USSR divided Poland up with Nazi Germany, invading from the east as Hitler invaded from the west in 1939 (https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/06/world-war-ii-the-invasion-of-poland-and-the-winter-war/100094/) (Stalin then went on to invade Finland; he was not worried about being betrayed by Hitler).
It was only when Germany turned on the USSR in 1941 that Stalin joined the Allied effort. Even still, the USSR kept its neutrality pact with Imperial Japan until 1945 (https://journals.openedition.org/monderusse/9333).
Throughout the war, the United States provided materiel to the Soviets to keep them in the fight (https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/#:~:text=Totaling%20%2411.3%20billion%2C%20or%20%24180,common%20enemy%20%E2%80%94%20bloodthirsty%20Hitlerism.%E2%80%9D; https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html).
Nikita Khrushchev stated "'If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war,' . . . in his memoirs. 'One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me.'"
"In 1963, KGB monitoring recorded Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov saying: 'People say that the allies didn't help us. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. The Americans provided vital explosives and gunpowder. And how much steel! Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own.'" (both quotes from https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html).
The United States not only sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives, but also armed the UK and the USSR with vital products, weapons and raw materials. It was the Arsenal of Freedom. The USSR through its own actions, incompetence and failures, saw the tragic death of millions of its soldiers and civilians.
To simply look at the body bag total, and say that Americans should not be proud of the critical role played in World War Two, because the USSR suffered more casualties, is to reduce a complicated and difficult history to a comparison of two statistics that are lacking context and valence. It is a debating tactic beneath the dignity of a thinking and educated person.
The United States has a very complicated history, but I still put it against any other nation in the course of history, and it is exceptional and it is admirable, with many warts, failures and a good does of shame. Ms. Gray would discard a shining moment AND hold up the USSR in the alternative with a simplistic narrative, to try to arrive at the conclusion that the U.S. is not all that.
Ignorance and arrogance on display. Argue real history, and real nuance, and come to honest disagreements, sure, that is fine. But get off the leftist academic talking points, the canards, the false narratives and echo chamber call and response.
After all, we are dealing with serious issues here, that call for a serious and collective response by our country. There are real lives at stake, as well as the future of our country, which has been, and can be and should be a force for good in this world. It is not perfect, but it is better than the leading alternatives.
Does anyone want to live under PRC hegemony? Glenn raised it as a concern, and Ms. Gray did not even engage.
Thank you for your thoughts Clifton and Glenn. I always learn from this community and the discussion. I hope I don't fall to my own echo chamber, my own ignorance or arrogance (though I know it is always a danger).
Keep up the good work.