1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
Do you think the most violent, misogynistic, nihilistic rap music is more a reflection of a problem, than a cause of it (of course big music media money also helps drive and amplify it)? I’ve seen Public Enemy in concert. I used to memorize NWA lyrics and Too Live Crew lyrics - because some were funny, some were shocking, so many pushed the limits of (even tenuously lower-middle-class) propriety. It’s obvious plenty of kids - white, black, Latino, Asian Americans - you name it - can consume some pretty dark rap lyrics and play at relating to the culture, without being warped morally, let alone driven to shoot anyone over a beef or pimp or beat women or deal drugs. But as the line went “hip-hop is the CNN of the hood”. It’s both reflecting a culture and promoting it back to the its real ground-level participants. It’s a bad joke by now that virtually every “street” or “hood” black kid up to middle aged adult arrested for committing a violent crime (and many who end up shot or killed) was an active or “aspiring” rapper. It’s a little too neat and pat to say that since not everyone who listens to rap commits the sort of crimes described, rap has nothing to do with gang culture and the culture of nihilistic violence, abuse of women, and utterly empty materialism. Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime. Gangs and crews in NYC for example are active in all kinds of scams and rackets. And look at the recent rampant car jackings and organized smash and grabs of luxury items. No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up. No way charter schools or better vocational opportunities alone are going to stop the allure of the violently transgressive IDGAF culture that rap music reflects. Yes, sorority girls rap along to it too before applying to grad school and it’s now one of the most popular forms of music among suburban mom’s - because everyone wants to be a little bad. It’s the actually lived culture it reflects that’s the problem.
"Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime"
End of course not. But largely reduce yes.
Simply put, there is no other criminal activity that is even a fraction as profitable. Those profits are what allows gangs to grow so large, and fuels the violence as the fight over turf, not to mention pays off all the law enforcement.
"No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up."
I agree that it won't happen over night, but the drug money is the easy money, as that dries up, people will have to turn to something else. More importantly it's going to greatly reduce the influx of new recruits. Because the easy money is gone.
Hi Mathew, yes, all you suggest us reasonable and worth a try. I temperamentally tend toward caution re: transformative policy predictions, but have come around more recently on charters. They may sometimes be stultifying and seem to limit creativity, but for kids who badly need stability and rules along with support, I’ve come to think they’re necessary - or private schools that can achieve the same. As a liberal some of what I’ve gained a greater appreciation for are variables like leadership, culture, and simply a more honest appreciation of how incentives shape individual and group behavior.
Yah on schools. Agree with You and Professor McWhorter on WoD. To ME (italics) BEST approach on drugs is for government to provide at cost and, again to ME, do it through same distribution channels as alcohol. They better able to keep it outta kids hands.
Now, "SAYING" that, You gotta take into account what will happen a decade or so from now when AI and Robotics causes MASSIVE job losses. UNBELIEVABLE numbers. A large number of people will turn to drugs to destroy themselves, right? Going on NOW.
As far as rap music not being confined to black community, True. As far as it having good effects? I'd like to hear what they've been. As far as I can tell, it's led to some white kids wishing they WERE black and others feeling guilty they're NOT. TREMENDOUS guilt being taking advantage of as we speak. Just a hunch, granted. Not many data points, one Way or t'other.
Answer? Me? Put money from WoD into 1) rehabilitation and 2) PREVENTION in first place. That's just me.
I'm not necessarily arguing rap music has good effects. I don't think it has much effect except for it's value as entertainment. Same applies to move movies, TV, video games etc
As for WoD, yes For the small subset of people that have a problem with drugs or alcohol they should be treated medically instead of criminally (unless they commit an actual crime of course. Being intoxicated is no excuse )
Excellent conversation.
Couple of points.
1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
Do you think the most violent, misogynistic, nihilistic rap music is more a reflection of a problem, than a cause of it (of course big music media money also helps drive and amplify it)? I’ve seen Public Enemy in concert. I used to memorize NWA lyrics and Too Live Crew lyrics - because some were funny, some were shocking, so many pushed the limits of (even tenuously lower-middle-class) propriety. It’s obvious plenty of kids - white, black, Latino, Asian Americans - you name it - can consume some pretty dark rap lyrics and play at relating to the culture, without being warped morally, let alone driven to shoot anyone over a beef or pimp or beat women or deal drugs. But as the line went “hip-hop is the CNN of the hood”. It’s both reflecting a culture and promoting it back to the its real ground-level participants. It’s a bad joke by now that virtually every “street” or “hood” black kid up to middle aged adult arrested for committing a violent crime (and many who end up shot or killed) was an active or “aspiring” rapper. It’s a little too neat and pat to say that since not everyone who listens to rap commits the sort of crimes described, rap has nothing to do with gang culture and the culture of nihilistic violence, abuse of women, and utterly empty materialism. Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime. Gangs and crews in NYC for example are active in all kinds of scams and rackets. And look at the recent rampant car jackings and organized smash and grabs of luxury items. No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up. No way charter schools or better vocational opportunities alone are going to stop the allure of the violently transgressive IDGAF culture that rap music reflects. Yes, sorority girls rap along to it too before applying to grad school and it’s now one of the most popular forms of music among suburban mom’s - because everyone wants to be a little bad. It’s the actually lived culture it reflects that’s the problem.
"Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime"
End of course not. But largely reduce yes.
Simply put, there is no other criminal activity that is even a fraction as profitable. Those profits are what allows gangs to grow so large, and fuels the violence as the fight over turf, not to mention pays off all the law enforcement.
"No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up."
I agree that it won't happen over night, but the drug money is the easy money, as that dries up, people will have to turn to something else. More importantly it's going to greatly reduce the influx of new recruits. Because the easy money is gone.
Hi Mathew, yes, all you suggest us reasonable and worth a try. I temperamentally tend toward caution re: transformative policy predictions, but have come around more recently on charters. They may sometimes be stultifying and seem to limit creativity, but for kids who badly need stability and rules along with support, I’ve come to think they’re necessary - or private schools that can achieve the same. As a liberal some of what I’ve gained a greater appreciation for are variables like leadership, culture, and simply a more honest appreciation of how incentives shape individual and group behavior.
Yah on schools. Agree with You and Professor McWhorter on WoD. To ME (italics) BEST approach on drugs is for government to provide at cost and, again to ME, do it through same distribution channels as alcohol. They better able to keep it outta kids hands.
Now, "SAYING" that, You gotta take into account what will happen a decade or so from now when AI and Robotics causes MASSIVE job losses. UNBELIEVABLE numbers. A large number of people will turn to drugs to destroy themselves, right? Going on NOW.
As far as rap music not being confined to black community, True. As far as it having good effects? I'd like to hear what they've been. As far as I can tell, it's led to some white kids wishing they WERE black and others feeling guilty they're NOT. TREMENDOUS guilt being taking advantage of as we speak. Just a hunch, granted. Not many data points, one Way or t'other.
Answer? Me? Put money from WoD into 1) rehabilitation and 2) PREVENTION in first place. That's just me.
I'm not necessarily arguing rap music has good effects. I don't think it has much effect except for it's value as entertainment. Same applies to move movies, TV, video games etc
As for WoD, yes For the small subset of people that have a problem with drugs or alcohol they should be treated medically instead of criminally (unless they commit an actual crime of course. Being intoxicated is no excuse )