Glenn’s concern for the “Spiral of Silence” that functions like a social panopticon cause conservative self censorship and how the disingenuous use of bigotry is feeding the radicalization of the right. I actually agree with that. BUT I also feel that those black inner city Americans who were rioting where also victims of the “Spiral of Silence” as their grievances went unheard and seeing a police officer acquitted for killing unarmed black people set a terrible precedent. Instead this was seen as a failure of their culture and a lack of personal responsibility. Glenn’s bottom up concept of if everyone just fall in line a just act right all will be fine. I feel this conversation lacked an analysis of the systems and institutions that in my opinion have major impacts on societal outcomes. I feel economics often mistakes the map for the territory and often delivers unfavorable outcomes when implemented in the real world. The personal responsibility approach to addressing social issues is putting the cart in front of the horse if we do not address the system/institutional aspects first.
When were the grievances of protestors and rioters (to the extent the latter was even based on grievances) not heard? And does the death of every single unarmed black American in a police involved incident have to result in a conviction, no less for “killing” - no matter the specific facts of each situation? What about every death of every single unarmed white or Latino or Native/First Nations, or Asian American in a police involved incident? Does it only have to be every black person, because otherwise that one population will feel ignored or unheard? Isn’t the reality that cases involving non-black suspects who die in police involved incidents are actually the ones we’re much much less likely to ever hear about - because of the often publicly unchecked ascendence of a narrative that police killings of black men and unarmed black men in particular are rampant (a high proportion of white liberals - maybe progressives is a better term - in surveys have guessed the number is well over ten thousand per year). What about unarmed black suspects who nonetheless contributed in some way to risking their own lives by fighting cops, grabbing at police weapons, trying to force their way back into vehicles, etc? We can debate why a black suspect might rationally or irrationally fear police violence more and might tragically behave in a way more likely to result in such violence. It’s a tragedy that anyone should have to walk around feeling at heightened risk of mortal danger from law enforcement merely due to where they live or even worse the color of their skin. But again, isn’t part of the problem narratives? The false idea that a cop might well kill you if you’re black and don’t fight back. The perhaps understandable but genuinely harmful idea that to try to fight armed police who must assume mortal risk given they are armed and must in many cases be armed to do their jobs is somehow important to black manhood or noble resistance. I’ve been treated roughly by cops. Even my sweet mom as an older lady was treated quite rudely by cops on 2-3 occasions. I was once pulled over by cops at 18-19 six times in about six weeks for nonsense reasons like using a turn signal slightly late or slightly early. But I had the actual privilege of not being impacted by a history in which police really did harass and abuse black men in particular as a routine part of their jobs. And I had the arguable privilege of not being burdened by a false narrative from other white people and the left and the media that to move in public with my skin color meant certain and regular police abuse and the real risk they might kill me for no other reason. The former is a stain and a shadow from our history and we must ensure all our citizens are treated fairly by police and know they can be. But the latter is a needless, senseless, and too often very cynically manufactured and deployed falsehood and additional emotional and social burden - and it’s coming from the left. It’s coming from no small number of specific people I know personally, many of whom are white, all of whom I’m sure think they’re helping (even if there is a degree of self-promotion, personal branding, even a bit of narcissism involved). But what they’re doing is spreading lazy lies or falsehoods based on a species of very hardened, defensive ignorance. Others are spreading instrumental “symbolic truths” to drive a narrative and agenda. What all of these people are doing is feeding paranoia. They are effectively telling their friends, acquaintances, coworkers, neighbors, “yes I agree you are being hunted every day based only on your skin color - as a white person I am aware of the evil of other less woke white people and can confirm this evil is a common daily reality.” The reason I began with the question I did is there was undoubtedly a time in our history when rampant, routine police abuse - not just against the poor and shabby or powerless and vulnerable, but specifically against black Americans was not only a real phenomenon but one that was ignored. More recently it’s closer to the opposite. We may have climbed down a bit from the very peak but we’re still very close to the recent phenomenon of black Americans in particular being encouraged and incentivized to see every single petty quotidian inconvenience or rudeness solely through a racial lens, assume the very worst motives of anyone of another race who is involved, and confront that person while filming them, with the near-certainty The Washington Post will put even a dumb kerfuffle between two people having a bad day on their front page as another sure sign we still live in Jim Crow America. Even very smart lawyers I know think the actual numbers of unarmed black men who die in police involved incidents surely must be in the thousands each year. Plenty of very smart people I know responded to reports of Jussie Smollett’s hate hoax with pure childlike credulity and posted things like “no justice, no peace!” We’ve been treated to official media and politicians’ hagiographies of every black man and woman who dies in a police involved incident. Their lives mattered. Their deaths are tragedies, no doubt. But gold caskets and White House visits and statutes, statements from Vice Presidential candidate’s about being proud of violent criminals who threatened women and children, and loud even intimidating demands we all shout every such person’s name ad nauseam - these responses have become the norm. We need better police-community relations. The same huge majorities of black Americans who told Gallup a couple years ago that they want the same or a larger police presence in their communities also want (and absolutely deserve) to be treated with respect. I want to focus on ensuring all our people are both provided effective police protection and are treated with respect. But we’re so deep in a moral panic driven by a false narrative that police are inherently a routinely murderous presence in black Americans’ lives. That kind of phony recognition, that pandering form of being heard is not helping.
Thanks for your dissertation on the reality of perceived police brutality. May replay to Glenns statements was to criticize our current neoliberal monopoly capitalism. I have to admit I have not done any deliberate research or accurate statistics on killings of unarmed black citizens by police. I have no illusions that this is a specific threat. I would guess that this is a localized issue as no all departments are the same. HOWEVER I would think that police reform in poor performing departments is long overdue and we should have community boards that share oversight. Police unions and the Blue line have protected “bad” police for far to long. The militarization of police needs to stop. Tactics like no knock warrants, geo fencing and cell phone surveillance, stop and frisk, and forfeiture laws. Not to mention the over policing of poorer communities too basically shake people down just to fund the departments. I am concerned that the deindustrialization of American has left many cities and municipalities short on funds which can result is less that desirable training and equipping of the police force. The warrior cop mentality in which police who do not live in the communities they serve can become more a occupation force. Again these are OUTCOMES of a system. That very system is neoliberalism which has eliminated the middle class and continues to extract rather that circulate money in local economies. I can very that many police departments have been guilty of corruption and exploitation of there communities. Not mention a reduction of social services that have pushed extra duties police are not trained to perform. I really am not so much concerned about a racists cop more an incompetent one or one who is burnt out. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Glenn’s concern for the “Spiral of Silence” that functions like a social panopticon cause conservative self censorship and how the disingenuous use of bigotry is feeding the radicalization of the right. I actually agree with that. BUT I also feel that those black inner city Americans who were rioting where also victims of the “Spiral of Silence” as their grievances went unheard and seeing a police officer acquitted for killing unarmed black people set a terrible precedent. Instead this was seen as a failure of their culture and a lack of personal responsibility. Glenn’s bottom up concept of if everyone just fall in line a just act right all will be fine. I feel this conversation lacked an analysis of the systems and institutions that in my opinion have major impacts on societal outcomes. I feel economics often mistakes the map for the territory and often delivers unfavorable outcomes when implemented in the real world. The personal responsibility approach to addressing social issues is putting the cart in front of the horse if we do not address the system/institutional aspects first.
When were the grievances of protestors and rioters (to the extent the latter was even based on grievances) not heard? And does the death of every single unarmed black American in a police involved incident have to result in a conviction, no less for “killing” - no matter the specific facts of each situation? What about every death of every single unarmed white or Latino or Native/First Nations, or Asian American in a police involved incident? Does it only have to be every black person, because otherwise that one population will feel ignored or unheard? Isn’t the reality that cases involving non-black suspects who die in police involved incidents are actually the ones we’re much much less likely to ever hear about - because of the often publicly unchecked ascendence of a narrative that police killings of black men and unarmed black men in particular are rampant (a high proportion of white liberals - maybe progressives is a better term - in surveys have guessed the number is well over ten thousand per year). What about unarmed black suspects who nonetheless contributed in some way to risking their own lives by fighting cops, grabbing at police weapons, trying to force their way back into vehicles, etc? We can debate why a black suspect might rationally or irrationally fear police violence more and might tragically behave in a way more likely to result in such violence. It’s a tragedy that anyone should have to walk around feeling at heightened risk of mortal danger from law enforcement merely due to where they live or even worse the color of their skin. But again, isn’t part of the problem narratives? The false idea that a cop might well kill you if you’re black and don’t fight back. The perhaps understandable but genuinely harmful idea that to try to fight armed police who must assume mortal risk given they are armed and must in many cases be armed to do their jobs is somehow important to black manhood or noble resistance. I’ve been treated roughly by cops. Even my sweet mom as an older lady was treated quite rudely by cops on 2-3 occasions. I was once pulled over by cops at 18-19 six times in about six weeks for nonsense reasons like using a turn signal slightly late or slightly early. But I had the actual privilege of not being impacted by a history in which police really did harass and abuse black men in particular as a routine part of their jobs. And I had the arguable privilege of not being burdened by a false narrative from other white people and the left and the media that to move in public with my skin color meant certain and regular police abuse and the real risk they might kill me for no other reason. The former is a stain and a shadow from our history and we must ensure all our citizens are treated fairly by police and know they can be. But the latter is a needless, senseless, and too often very cynically manufactured and deployed falsehood and additional emotional and social burden - and it’s coming from the left. It’s coming from no small number of specific people I know personally, many of whom are white, all of whom I’m sure think they’re helping (even if there is a degree of self-promotion, personal branding, even a bit of narcissism involved). But what they’re doing is spreading lazy lies or falsehoods based on a species of very hardened, defensive ignorance. Others are spreading instrumental “symbolic truths” to drive a narrative and agenda. What all of these people are doing is feeding paranoia. They are effectively telling their friends, acquaintances, coworkers, neighbors, “yes I agree you are being hunted every day based only on your skin color - as a white person I am aware of the evil of other less woke white people and can confirm this evil is a common daily reality.” The reason I began with the question I did is there was undoubtedly a time in our history when rampant, routine police abuse - not just against the poor and shabby or powerless and vulnerable, but specifically against black Americans was not only a real phenomenon but one that was ignored. More recently it’s closer to the opposite. We may have climbed down a bit from the very peak but we’re still very close to the recent phenomenon of black Americans in particular being encouraged and incentivized to see every single petty quotidian inconvenience or rudeness solely through a racial lens, assume the very worst motives of anyone of another race who is involved, and confront that person while filming them, with the near-certainty The Washington Post will put even a dumb kerfuffle between two people having a bad day on their front page as another sure sign we still live in Jim Crow America. Even very smart lawyers I know think the actual numbers of unarmed black men who die in police involved incidents surely must be in the thousands each year. Plenty of very smart people I know responded to reports of Jussie Smollett’s hate hoax with pure childlike credulity and posted things like “no justice, no peace!” We’ve been treated to official media and politicians’ hagiographies of every black man and woman who dies in a police involved incident. Their lives mattered. Their deaths are tragedies, no doubt. But gold caskets and White House visits and statutes, statements from Vice Presidential candidate’s about being proud of violent criminals who threatened women and children, and loud even intimidating demands we all shout every such person’s name ad nauseam - these responses have become the norm. We need better police-community relations. The same huge majorities of black Americans who told Gallup a couple years ago that they want the same or a larger police presence in their communities also want (and absolutely deserve) to be treated with respect. I want to focus on ensuring all our people are both provided effective police protection and are treated with respect. But we’re so deep in a moral panic driven by a false narrative that police are inherently a routinely murderous presence in black Americans’ lives. That kind of phony recognition, that pandering form of being heard is not helping.
Thanks for your dissertation on the reality of perceived police brutality. May replay to Glenns statements was to criticize our current neoliberal monopoly capitalism. I have to admit I have not done any deliberate research or accurate statistics on killings of unarmed black citizens by police. I have no illusions that this is a specific threat. I would guess that this is a localized issue as no all departments are the same. HOWEVER I would think that police reform in poor performing departments is long overdue and we should have community boards that share oversight. Police unions and the Blue line have protected “bad” police for far to long. The militarization of police needs to stop. Tactics like no knock warrants, geo fencing and cell phone surveillance, stop and frisk, and forfeiture laws. Not to mention the over policing of poorer communities too basically shake people down just to fund the departments. I am concerned that the deindustrialization of American has left many cities and municipalities short on funds which can result is less that desirable training and equipping of the police force. The warrior cop mentality in which police who do not live in the communities they serve can become more a occupation force. Again these are OUTCOMES of a system. That very system is neoliberalism which has eliminated the middle class and continues to extract rather that circulate money in local economies. I can very that many police departments have been guilty of corruption and exploitation of there communities. Not mention a reduction of social services that have pushed extra duties police are not trained to perform. I really am not so much concerned about a racists cop more an incompetent one or one who is burnt out. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.