"I’m struck by how much closer we seemed to that ideal in 2007 than we do in 2023."
The operative word here is "seemed", but the reality is this: U.S. race relations--specifically, Black & White--have never been better.
That doesn't mean race relations in America are "great" or "good". It just means they have never been better. If you disagree, please tell me when race relations were better in the USA?
That is to say, based on real criteria? Intermarriage? Biraciality? Multiraciality? We are light years from any previous point in our time line. Culturally? This is as good as ever.
If you think race relations are in the toilet today, you might wanna remember how truly crappy they used to be (just to keep things in perspective).
I recently saw a guy on Twitter espousing how much better it was in the 90s. I assumed he was smoking 90s crack.
Anecdotally, I am amazed at the number of young African-Americans who honestly like country music, and needless to say, hip-hop is a global phenomenon.
We are more blended than ever. Now obviously, there are Americans out there who would rather go to their graves than blend. But people like that will always exist, and they are obviously losing.
That's why they speak and act as they do. They know their utopia is a hopeless wet dream. But in fairness, social media can be very misleading. The incentive structures there can be very pernicious societally, and we may end up paying for it one day.
Hey Charles, just throwing in my 2 cents. I think race relations were better before 2020. It used to be that my smiley friendly self was treated like friendly person, period. More often than not, I am now treated as a “White Woman” as though I’m about 10 seconds from turning into one of those viral “Karens.” It’s pretty irritating when people (even in service jobs) are just downright rude and dismissive. I know that for a long time minorities of all sorts had to deal with this flattening out of their humanity, and it was something I have always been conscious of not doing to others. To me, it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities” and think that those superficial differences tell you anything about the person inside. Maybe it’s just me though. Or maybe people are just being more comfortable being assholes in general.
But can you narrow that down to something closer to a decade?
I must say that between your comments and Redd's, I can at least understand some of our disconnect. For me, it's a little odd to say race relations are better or worse than three or four years ago. Imho, that's not enough time to draw such a conclusion about an entire country. We have 50 states, 3,000-plus counties; 35,000 towns. In truth, *all* of our experiences probably reflect some real version of the American experience.
Fwiw, throughout the 80s, 90s and 2000s, my politics have been all over the place, but my immediate orbit has almost always been Black or mostly Black. If you asked me to compare Black attitudes about White people (or "America") to back in the day, I would say without hesitation that we as a people have toned it down in a major way. The only thing that *might* give me pause is social media.
When I think about the OJ verdict, the Rodney King protests & riots, The Million Man March, the subject matter of a lot of rap music, etc., we are on a different planet.
"it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities”"
Well, I agree that our experiences are different based on when and where we lived and who we are. You know I believe that quite strongly. Being white, I was never really racialized (kinda by definition) in larger society. I was aware of my race, because I grew up in a very diverse place and heard all the spoken and unspoken rules about what I could do/like/wear etc because I was white. Gotta say I always thought it was dumb. But, I try not to make too many waves… lt’s interesting that you think (if I understand you) that black people have fewer bad feelings about whites now than in the past… my dad was born in 1939 and he was of the opinion that blacks had a deep distrust of whites which is not something I ever observed, so you are probably right. The “discourse” is very much about “white supremacy“ and speaking of racism kinda like original sin (in that it is unpurgable) and throwing out phrases like “white tears” and such. It’s hard to imagine that some people don’t take that as permission to be a jerk in a way that they maybe would not have before? I don’t know. So given all that maybe I’d say the 1990s and early 2000s seemed like it has less racial tension. I fully admit that I may have been oblivious to it… or it could have been that I lived in some of the most diverse cities in America then, and now I live in one that is very segregated. Maybe if I was still in Maryland, just outside DC, I’d feel differently.
It's deep stuff for sure. I will never claim to know it all. (Hell, I can barely wrap my head around some of it.)
I will concede this: The younger generations--I think in part due to social media--feel very free to express themselves publicly, oftentimes with a lot of (ostensible) passion, be they Black, White, right, left, whatever.
But when young people speak passionately, real or fake, there's usually a limited amount of wisdom behind their words.
So I find myself, frankly, questioning their authenticity: i.e., "How much of this outrage is kids tryin' to look edgy and cool, or 'trendy'?" "How much of it is peer pressure to play a certain role?"
Some of them want to be TikTok famous.
If you're young today, you are immersed in a culture in which seemingly everybody around you is at some point playing to the mics and the cameras. It has been this way for quite some time now, and when a thing becomes a thing, followers follow.
I have witnessed some of the most woke nonWhite people with White best friends who are *not* super-woke. The Black Lives Matter demonstrations of 2020 had more White participants than Black--a lot more. (That was nowhere near the case in '92 with Rodney King.)
How are we supposed to reconcile this?
I like John McWhorter's term: performative. That is to say, I don't think people are flat-out faking it, but some are being dramatic as heck.
My elementary school teachers used to love to say, "The emptiest wagons make the loudest noise."
Does that apply here? I don't know, but I'm guessing sometimes. =)
I can attest to the lack of perspective of the young, wisdom probably varies, but the lack of perspective is pretty ridiculous. I think that is the biggest problem with “wokeness.” Being close with many “woke” white ladies who pride themselves on being “allies” of all kinds and there is a lot of pressure to be “nice” and virtuous because we have been socialized to only have value through supporting other people. It’s hard to see so much self flagellation.
For a long time, the majority of white people just really believed racism was over. Obviously that isn’t true. I think all the “good people” are overcompensating. White guilt is a powerful force, but sadly, I don’t think it actually does anything to make racism less. In some ways, like John and Glenn point out, those beliefs reinforce some deeply racist ideas instead of rooting out racism. I’m glad that the BLM movement showed that not all white people are secretly racist. That’s good at least. But from my perspective it seems to have amped up the noticing difference and a desire amongst the privileged to spend a lot of effort obsessing over it.
I think I’ve said this before, but it is hard for me (and probably a lot of other people) to distinguish what is real from what is a performance or a grift or a narrative. I find it really frustrating. I, of course, want to be “a good one” I just have no patience for the virtue signaling and intolerance it seems to require. And especially don’t have the patience for all the “Identities” that I’m supposed to be constantly preoccupied with.
Race relations aren't getting better, especially in red states in the deep South. 6 white Mississippi police officers just pleaded guilty to charges related to assaulting and torturing 2 black guys at their residence after an anonymous caller contacted the police relating that these two guys had white women in their home. The victims were tortured and sexually assaulted for two hours. They were forced to disrobe and shower with each other. One was shot in the mouth and was fortunate enough to survive his wounds.
The Fulton County black district attorney, black sheriff, and other black officials are being threatened by deranged crackers after Trump's Indictment in Georgia. Being doxed.
Black voter suppression in the red states is on steroids after Robert's court gutted part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
The list goes on.
Are you smoking crack cocaine and spun out (distracted)) by the intense euphoria of interracial sex? The forbidden fruit craved by black guys like you.
Interracially sex-crazed Charles! You're saying that more access to interracial sex has improved race relations? Clarence Thomas marrying a white woman who worked for the racist John Birch Society is progress? I'm rolling on the floor with uncontrollable laughter. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
"Obama was a step forward. Trump...leap backward..."
I get what you are saying. I don't disagree. But I don't think you get what I am saying.
The same country that elected Obama twice (decisively) eventually elected Trump. Four years later, President Biden and VP Harris are in office. These are some pretty wild swings, and it all happened within a 12-year span.
But it's the same country, right?
Is the America that produced Obama particularly different from the one that produced Trump eight years later? Is the America that produced Trump fundamentally different from the one that produced Biden four years later? I find that hard to believe.
Our politics is different, no doubt about that. But our overall culture, I would argue, is not necessarily dictated by who is president or who is in Congress--at least not in the short run.
I don't know how *you* define race relations. But I don't know any sane or decent people who would trade the current generation for any previous ones.
While visiting Cape Town, South Africa a few years ago I visited a small restaurant for lunch. I was sitting outside eating when I encountered a black French guy with his white French girlfriend. We were on the outskirts of Cape Town when a commotion broke out among a large group of blacks. Frenchy tried to communicate his fear with me, but I didn't speak French. He and his girlfriend bolted out of there with immense fear and terror on their faces. A dark-skinned African then approached me and asked where I was from. He related that he was a refugee from Sudan. Fortunately, I knew the history of the civil war in Sudan between the Arabs and Africans. He said I looked like an Arab from Sudan or Somalia because of my color. I immediately responded that I was an American and chanted Obama... Obama... Obama! His hostile demeanor was then defused. When I think of you, I think about black Frenchy with that fear in his eyes. It was very funny and entertaining.
I'm not a Trump supporter, but he did a good job of turning this country upside down. Its democracy is being tested. Many brothers like myself are on the sidelines being amused. We're waiting for the major catalyst for black people to wake the fuck up. What would be your position if this country went into civil war or major unrest? If Jared Taylor or Richard Spencer became more mainstream? I would look forward to that stupid look on your face, like a deer freezing up in the middle of the road at night about to be hit by a fast oncoming truck. I can see you now analyzing while that truck hits you. Lol!!!!
Make no mistake there was an Obama hatefest led by Fox and Limbaugh. What it lacked was a candidate and so the racists just stayed home. After Obama was re-elected Republicans first decided they needed to stop being the Stupid Party, then decided a better strategy was to get even stupider and appeal to the missing white voter. Their prayers were answered with Trump, unintentionally I think, I don't think Trump ever wanted intended or expected to be president, I think it was a put-on publicity stunt. Unfortunately Democrats presented the "puncher" with a tailor made punching bag who thought she was royalty and didn't need to show up allowing Trump to run essentially unopposed.
You sound more in agreement with me than disagreement.
The point I have been (apparently) struggling to make is that a nation of 330mm doesn't suddenly transform as a result of an election. What Trump tapped into was already there; he didn't create anything; he only breathed life into it.
Those same elements were there when McCain ran, but McCain chose not to play to them (even though Palin was a bit of a wink and a nod). Similarly, Trump's election did not suddenly eliminate those Americans who find him disgusting. We simply lost an election, which, as you implied, could have been won.
When we think about the nation’s racial history, we often envision a linear path, one that, admittedly, begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction—toward equality. As if we’re riding a Whiggish escalator, the narrative of racial progress starts with slavery, ascends to the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, speeds past segregation and Jim Crow to the victories of the civil-rights movement, and then drops us off in 2008 for Barack Obama’s election. Many people asserted at the time that America had become a “postracial” society, or was at least getting close—maybe one more short escalator ride away. This redemptive narrative not only smooths over the past but smooths over what is yet to come: It holds out the promise of an almost predestined, naturally occurring future that will be even more just and egalitarian.
For the past several years, I, along with my Yale colleague Michael W. Kraus and our students, have been examining perceptions of racial economic inequality—its extent and persistence, decade by decade. In a 2019 study, using a dozen specific moments between 1963 and 2016, we compared perceptions of racial wealth inequality over time with actual data on racial wealth inequality. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the respondents in our study significantly overestimated the wealth of Black families relative to that of white families. In 1963, the median Black family had about 5 percent as much wealth as the median white family. Respondents said close to 50 percent. For 2016, the respondents estimated Black wealth to be 90 percent that of whites. The correct answer for that year was about 10 percent.
The mythology of racial progress is corrosive in countless ways. It provides a reason to blame the victim: If we’re converging on equality, then those left behind must not be trying. And it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system: If we’re converging on equality anyway, then why do we need laws and other measures to promote it?
"begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction"
Unerringly? No educated person believes that.
For better or worse, this author sounds very typical.
"It provides a reason to blame the victim", "it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system"
Pretty reductive stuff if you ask me.
She appears to define racial progress as something mainly or solely based on economic *equality*. She's free to define racial progress however she wishes. But: (A) I think that's a mistake. (B) Her takes obscure too many other truths, and thus, various potential solutions.
Interesting stuff. Frankly, it was way more positive than I anticipated. The central message I received was that the vast majority of African-Americans were (generally) content with their lives and potential, but increasingly anxious about the bizarre state of the White right.
The respondents also expressed genuine concern about *long-term* economic mobility. That is to say, getting ahead today is a more difficult proposition than a generation or so ago.
I get all of that, 100%. You don't have to be Black to get this.
Even during the Trump years, the FBI was consistent about who posed the biggest terrorist threat in America: White nationalists. (Needless to say, Jan6th didn't help alleviate such concerns. But that's another subject.)
As for economics: When longshot presidential candidate Andrew Yang touted Universal Basic Income, the concept resonated with all kinds of people because folks of every background recognize we are living in very different times.
I think that you and I--like a lot of people--part ways, not because we have opposite values, but because of how we interpret various data. You remind me a lot of my best friend (also Black). He and I butt heads in a very similar way and sometimes it gets pretty damn intense.
But I think I know why.
I draw clear distinctions between culture and politics, even though they are very much intertwined. I tend to view people as elements on a spectrum, especially in politics.
I see politics as competing self-interested factions constantly vying for position against each other. i.e., struggles that can exist at the highest levels (e.g., "Communism vs Capitalism", "slavery vs abolition"), all the way down to mundane s*** like where to put the next traffic lights.
Politics is shaped by those who care the most about politics, be they politicians, activists, pundits, opinion-makers, donors, what-have-you. But the vast majority of people aren't political. Most folk, ultimately, accept whatever hand they've been dealt and try to make the best of it.
But we all make up the culture.
To be clear, a lot of regular folk get manipulated and influenced by politics, and yes, s*** can go way off the rails if we allow the crazies to attain and maintain power.
But I will opt for honest and serious dialogue, every time, as long as it is an option. But if that cup ever runs empty, I can be a massive a-hole as much as anybody else =)
In this case, I was using "typical" as a bit of a pejorative (meaning, eye-roll inducing).
But yes, I am an outlier in many ways, and perfectly okay with that.
"If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?"
If I google "race relations", I get this:
"the way in which members or communities of different racial or ethnic groups feel about and behave toward each other within a particular area."
That is not necessarily about economics. Sounds more like a focus on basic respect in general, and based on that, there is no doubt that the current-day is better than previous generations. I honestly don't know how anyone could claim otherwise.
There are certainly other areas of importance, and other facts that don't at all comport with any idea of a racially harmonious society. But acknowledging that the current-day, overall, is better than back in the day, does not dismiss or ignore any of that. (Not with me anyway.)
Also, comparing Black American and White American wealth is complex. There is obviously the huge factor of who got the head start, but clearly that doesn't explain everything. There are other factors, such as, yes, culture.
One of the most interesting stats that I never hear about regarding African-Americans is how so many of our richest individuals hail from the entertainment industry: Oprah, Jordan, Jay-Z, Tyler Perry, Kanye (before he lost his damned mind), Bob Johnson (before his divorce).
We're talking billionaires, who mostly started off poor and working class, making their fortunes in the industry with the worst odds for success. That's mind-blowing if you think about it.
With every other ethnicity, the wealthiest got their bag from real estate, tech, finance, etc. But in Black America, tech billionaires like Robert Smith and David Stewart are the outliers. That suggests to me that we as a people have been too focused on a particular path, and that's cultural.
There are other meaningful factors as well. Like the African and West Indian immigrants. Their narrative is a lot closer to the overall American immigrant story and the results are similar--oftentimes better than their White counterparts.
Can't think of a creative way to end this post, so I'll just leave it there.
"I’m struck by how much closer we seemed to that ideal in 2007 than we do in 2023."
The operative word here is "seemed", but the reality is this: U.S. race relations--specifically, Black & White--have never been better.
That doesn't mean race relations in America are "great" or "good". It just means they have never been better. If you disagree, please tell me when race relations were better in the USA?
That is to say, based on real criteria? Intermarriage? Biraciality? Multiraciality? We are light years from any previous point in our time line. Culturally? This is as good as ever.
If you think race relations are in the toilet today, you might wanna remember how truly crappy they used to be (just to keep things in perspective).
I recently saw a guy on Twitter espousing how much better it was in the 90s. I assumed he was smoking 90s crack.
Anecdotally, I am amazed at the number of young African-Americans who honestly like country music, and needless to say, hip-hop is a global phenomenon.
We are more blended than ever. Now obviously, there are Americans out there who would rather go to their graves than blend. But people like that will always exist, and they are obviously losing.
That's why they speak and act as they do. They know their utopia is a hopeless wet dream. But in fairness, social media can be very misleading. The incentive structures there can be very pernicious societally, and we may end up paying for it one day.
But we're a long ways from that.
Hey Charles, just throwing in my 2 cents. I think race relations were better before 2020. It used to be that my smiley friendly self was treated like friendly person, period. More often than not, I am now treated as a “White Woman” as though I’m about 10 seconds from turning into one of those viral “Karens.” It’s pretty irritating when people (even in service jobs) are just downright rude and dismissive. I know that for a long time minorities of all sorts had to deal with this flattening out of their humanity, and it was something I have always been conscious of not doing to others. To me, it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities” and think that those superficial differences tell you anything about the person inside. Maybe it’s just me though. Or maybe people are just being more comfortable being assholes in general.
Hello Amy,
"I think race relations were better before 2020."
But can you narrow that down to something closer to a decade?
I must say that between your comments and Redd's, I can at least understand some of our disconnect. For me, it's a little odd to say race relations are better or worse than three or four years ago. Imho, that's not enough time to draw such a conclusion about an entire country. We have 50 states, 3,000-plus counties; 35,000 towns. In truth, *all* of our experiences probably reflect some real version of the American experience.
Fwiw, throughout the 80s, 90s and 2000s, my politics have been all over the place, but my immediate orbit has almost always been Black or mostly Black. If you asked me to compare Black attitudes about White people (or "America") to back in the day, I would say without hesitation that we as a people have toned it down in a major way. The only thing that *might* give me pause is social media.
When I think about the OJ verdict, the Rodney King protests & riots, The Million Man March, the subject matter of a lot of rap music, etc., we are on a different planet.
"it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities”"
Of course, I 100% agree here.
Well, I agree that our experiences are different based on when and where we lived and who we are. You know I believe that quite strongly. Being white, I was never really racialized (kinda by definition) in larger society. I was aware of my race, because I grew up in a very diverse place and heard all the spoken and unspoken rules about what I could do/like/wear etc because I was white. Gotta say I always thought it was dumb. But, I try not to make too many waves… lt’s interesting that you think (if I understand you) that black people have fewer bad feelings about whites now than in the past… my dad was born in 1939 and he was of the opinion that blacks had a deep distrust of whites which is not something I ever observed, so you are probably right. The “discourse” is very much about “white supremacy“ and speaking of racism kinda like original sin (in that it is unpurgable) and throwing out phrases like “white tears” and such. It’s hard to imagine that some people don’t take that as permission to be a jerk in a way that they maybe would not have before? I don’t know. So given all that maybe I’d say the 1990s and early 2000s seemed like it has less racial tension. I fully admit that I may have been oblivious to it… or it could have been that I lived in some of the most diverse cities in America then, and now I live in one that is very segregated. Maybe if I was still in Maryland, just outside DC, I’d feel differently.
It's deep stuff for sure. I will never claim to know it all. (Hell, I can barely wrap my head around some of it.)
I will concede this: The younger generations--I think in part due to social media--feel very free to express themselves publicly, oftentimes with a lot of (ostensible) passion, be they Black, White, right, left, whatever.
But when young people speak passionately, real or fake, there's usually a limited amount of wisdom behind their words.
So I find myself, frankly, questioning their authenticity: i.e., "How much of this outrage is kids tryin' to look edgy and cool, or 'trendy'?" "How much of it is peer pressure to play a certain role?"
Some of them want to be TikTok famous.
If you're young today, you are immersed in a culture in which seemingly everybody around you is at some point playing to the mics and the cameras. It has been this way for quite some time now, and when a thing becomes a thing, followers follow.
I have witnessed some of the most woke nonWhite people with White best friends who are *not* super-woke. The Black Lives Matter demonstrations of 2020 had more White participants than Black--a lot more. (That was nowhere near the case in '92 with Rodney King.)
How are we supposed to reconcile this?
I like John McWhorter's term: performative. That is to say, I don't think people are flat-out faking it, but some are being dramatic as heck.
My elementary school teachers used to love to say, "The emptiest wagons make the loudest noise."
Does that apply here? I don't know, but I'm guessing sometimes. =)
I can attest to the lack of perspective of the young, wisdom probably varies, but the lack of perspective is pretty ridiculous. I think that is the biggest problem with “wokeness.” Being close with many “woke” white ladies who pride themselves on being “allies” of all kinds and there is a lot of pressure to be “nice” and virtuous because we have been socialized to only have value through supporting other people. It’s hard to see so much self flagellation.
For a long time, the majority of white people just really believed racism was over. Obviously that isn’t true. I think all the “good people” are overcompensating. White guilt is a powerful force, but sadly, I don’t think it actually does anything to make racism less. In some ways, like John and Glenn point out, those beliefs reinforce some deeply racist ideas instead of rooting out racism. I’m glad that the BLM movement showed that not all white people are secretly racist. That’s good at least. But from my perspective it seems to have amped up the noticing difference and a desire amongst the privileged to spend a lot of effort obsessing over it.
I think I’ve said this before, but it is hard for me (and probably a lot of other people) to distinguish what is real from what is a performance or a grift or a narrative. I find it really frustrating. I, of course, want to be “a good one” I just have no patience for the virtue signaling and intolerance it seems to require. And especially don’t have the patience for all the “Identities” that I’m supposed to be constantly preoccupied with.
i like your view , there is a definite divide between those whose focus on the issue from any perspective and the rest of us just trying to live.
Race relations aren't getting better, especially in red states in the deep South. 6 white Mississippi police officers just pleaded guilty to charges related to assaulting and torturing 2 black guys at their residence after an anonymous caller contacted the police relating that these two guys had white women in their home. The victims were tortured and sexually assaulted for two hours. They were forced to disrobe and shower with each other. One was shot in the mouth and was fortunate enough to survive his wounds.
The Fulton County black district attorney, black sheriff, and other black officials are being threatened by deranged crackers after Trump's Indictment in Georgia. Being doxed.
Black voter suppression in the red states is on steroids after Robert's court gutted part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
The list goes on.
Are you smoking crack cocaine and spun out (distracted)) by the intense euphoria of interracial sex? The forbidden fruit craved by black guys like you.
Interracially sex-crazed Charles! You're saying that more access to interracial sex has improved race relations? Clarence Thomas marrying a white woman who worked for the racist John Birch Society is progress? I'm rolling on the floor with uncontrollable laughter. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Obama was a step forward. Trump, DeSatan, Mean Margie Green a quantum leap backward. 10 quantum leaps backward if Trump is reinstated.
"Obama was a step forward. Trump...leap backward..."
I get what you are saying. I don't disagree. But I don't think you get what I am saying.
The same country that elected Obama twice (decisively) eventually elected Trump. Four years later, President Biden and VP Harris are in office. These are some pretty wild swings, and it all happened within a 12-year span.
But it's the same country, right?
Is the America that produced Obama particularly different from the one that produced Trump eight years later? Is the America that produced Trump fundamentally different from the one that produced Biden four years later? I find that hard to believe.
Our politics is different, no doubt about that. But our overall culture, I would argue, is not necessarily dictated by who is president or who is in Congress--at least not in the short run.
I don't know how *you* define race relations. But I don't know any sane or decent people who would trade the current generation for any previous ones.
While visiting Cape Town, South Africa a few years ago I visited a small restaurant for lunch. I was sitting outside eating when I encountered a black French guy with his white French girlfriend. We were on the outskirts of Cape Town when a commotion broke out among a large group of blacks. Frenchy tried to communicate his fear with me, but I didn't speak French. He and his girlfriend bolted out of there with immense fear and terror on their faces. A dark-skinned African then approached me and asked where I was from. He related that he was a refugee from Sudan. Fortunately, I knew the history of the civil war in Sudan between the Arabs and Africans. He said I looked like an Arab from Sudan or Somalia because of my color. I immediately responded that I was an American and chanted Obama... Obama... Obama! His hostile demeanor was then defused. When I think of you, I think about black Frenchy with that fear in his eyes. It was very funny and entertaining.
Your lame meritorious manumission negro response: It's too complicated. Lol!!!!
I'm not a Trump supporter, but he did a good job of turning this country upside down. Its democracy is being tested. Many brothers like myself are on the sidelines being amused. We're waiting for the major catalyst for black people to wake the fuck up. What would be your position if this country went into civil war or major unrest? If Jared Taylor or Richard Spencer became more mainstream? I would look forward to that stupid look on your face, like a deer freezing up in the middle of the road at night about to be hit by a fast oncoming truck. I can see you now analyzing while that truck hits you. Lol!!!!
Make no mistake there was an Obama hatefest led by Fox and Limbaugh. What it lacked was a candidate and so the racists just stayed home. After Obama was re-elected Republicans first decided they needed to stop being the Stupid Party, then decided a better strategy was to get even stupider and appeal to the missing white voter. Their prayers were answered with Trump, unintentionally I think, I don't think Trump ever wanted intended or expected to be president, I think it was a put-on publicity stunt. Unfortunately Democrats presented the "puncher" with a tailor made punching bag who thought she was royalty and didn't need to show up allowing Trump to run essentially unopposed.
You sound more in agreement with me than disagreement.
The point I have been (apparently) struggling to make is that a nation of 330mm doesn't suddenly transform as a result of an election. What Trump tapped into was already there; he didn't create anything; he only breathed life into it.
Those same elements were there when McCain ran, but McCain chose not to play to them (even though Palin was a bit of a wink and a nod). Similarly, Trump's election did not suddenly eliminate those Americans who find him disgusting. We simply lost an election, which, as you implied, could have been won.
The myth of “racial progress” is corrosive
From the Atlantic:
When we think about the nation’s racial history, we often envision a linear path, one that, admittedly, begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction—toward equality. As if we’re riding a Whiggish escalator, the narrative of racial progress starts with slavery, ascends to the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, speeds past segregation and Jim Crow to the victories of the civil-rights movement, and then drops us off in 2008 for Barack Obama’s election. Many people asserted at the time that America had become a “postracial” society, or was at least getting close—maybe one more short escalator ride away. This redemptive narrative not only smooths over the past but smooths over what is yet to come: It holds out the promise of an almost predestined, naturally occurring future that will be even more just and egalitarian.
For the past several years, I, along with my Yale colleague Michael W. Kraus and our students, have been examining perceptions of racial economic inequality—its extent and persistence, decade by decade. In a 2019 study, using a dozen specific moments between 1963 and 2016, we compared perceptions of racial wealth inequality over time with actual data on racial wealth inequality. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the respondents in our study significantly overestimated the wealth of Black families relative to that of white families. In 1963, the median Black family had about 5 percent as much wealth as the median white family. Respondents said close to 50 percent. For 2016, the respondents estimated Black wealth to be 90 percent that of whites. The correct answer for that year was about 10 percent.
The mythology of racial progress is corrosive in countless ways. It provides a reason to blame the victim: If we’re converging on equality, then those left behind must not be trying. And it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system: If we’re converging on equality anyway, then why do we need laws and other measures to promote it?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/the-mythology-of-racial-progress/614173/
"begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction"
Unerringly? No educated person believes that.
For better or worse, this author sounds very typical.
"It provides a reason to blame the victim", "it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system"
Pretty reductive stuff if you ask me.
She appears to define racial progress as something mainly or solely based on economic *equality*. She's free to define racial progress however she wishes. But: (A) I think that's a mistake. (B) Her takes obscure too many other truths, and thus, various potential solutions.
In a capitalist system, economic situation is a very important measure.
If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?
Edit to add:
If the author is typical, are you the outlier?
2nd Edit to add:
The negatives from a recent poll
About half of Black Americans say racism will get worse over the rest of their lifetimes
69% of Black Americans say it is more dangerous to be a Black teen now than when they were teens; higher among older Black adults
Most Black adults are concerned about states blocking teaching of Black history and history of racism, banning books about race
About 8 in 10 Black Americans say America's economic system is stacked against them
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/16/black-americans-racism-poll/
RE: The WaPo Poll:
Interesting stuff. Frankly, it was way more positive than I anticipated. The central message I received was that the vast majority of African-Americans were (generally) content with their lives and potential, but increasingly anxious about the bizarre state of the White right.
The respondents also expressed genuine concern about *long-term* economic mobility. That is to say, getting ahead today is a more difficult proposition than a generation or so ago.
I get all of that, 100%. You don't have to be Black to get this.
Even during the Trump years, the FBI was consistent about who posed the biggest terrorist threat in America: White nationalists. (Needless to say, Jan6th didn't help alleviate such concerns. But that's another subject.)
As for economics: When longshot presidential candidate Andrew Yang touted Universal Basic Income, the concept resonated with all kinds of people because folks of every background recognize we are living in very different times.
I think that you and I--like a lot of people--part ways, not because we have opposite values, but because of how we interpret various data. You remind me a lot of my best friend (also Black). He and I butt heads in a very similar way and sometimes it gets pretty damn intense.
But I think I know why.
I draw clear distinctions between culture and politics, even though they are very much intertwined. I tend to view people as elements on a spectrum, especially in politics.
I see politics as competing self-interested factions constantly vying for position against each other. i.e., struggles that can exist at the highest levels (e.g., "Communism vs Capitalism", "slavery vs abolition"), all the way down to mundane s*** like where to put the next traffic lights.
Politics is shaped by those who care the most about politics, be they politicians, activists, pundits, opinion-makers, donors, what-have-you. But the vast majority of people aren't political. Most folk, ultimately, accept whatever hand they've been dealt and try to make the best of it.
But we all make up the culture.
To be clear, a lot of regular folk get manipulated and influenced by politics, and yes, s*** can go way off the rails if we allow the crazies to attain and maintain power.
But I will opt for honest and serious dialogue, every time, as long as it is an option. But if that cup ever runs empty, I can be a massive a-hole as much as anybody else =)
In this case, I was using "typical" as a bit of a pejorative (meaning, eye-roll inducing).
But yes, I am an outlier in many ways, and perfectly okay with that.
"If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?"
If I google "race relations", I get this:
"the way in which members or communities of different racial or ethnic groups feel about and behave toward each other within a particular area."
That is not necessarily about economics. Sounds more like a focus on basic respect in general, and based on that, there is no doubt that the current-day is better than previous generations. I honestly don't know how anyone could claim otherwise.
There are certainly other areas of importance, and other facts that don't at all comport with any idea of a racially harmonious society. But acknowledging that the current-day, overall, is better than back in the day, does not dismiss or ignore any of that. (Not with me anyway.)
Also, comparing Black American and White American wealth is complex. There is obviously the huge factor of who got the head start, but clearly that doesn't explain everything. There are other factors, such as, yes, culture.
One of the most interesting stats that I never hear about regarding African-Americans is how so many of our richest individuals hail from the entertainment industry: Oprah, Jordan, Jay-Z, Tyler Perry, Kanye (before he lost his damned mind), Bob Johnson (before his divorce).
We're talking billionaires, who mostly started off poor and working class, making their fortunes in the industry with the worst odds for success. That's mind-blowing if you think about it.
With every other ethnicity, the wealthiest got their bag from real estate, tech, finance, etc. But in Black America, tech billionaires like Robert Smith and David Stewart are the outliers. That suggests to me that we as a people have been too focused on a particular path, and that's cultural.
There are other meaningful factors as well. Like the African and West Indian immigrants. Their narrative is a lot closer to the overall American immigrant story and the results are similar--oftentimes better than their White counterparts.
Can't think of a creative way to end this post, so I'll just leave it there.