At the risk of talking out of school, I will post BEFORE I read the full article. I contend that this statement... “slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit.” is NOT problematic. That is a fact. (It might be inelegant in its construction. It might insult our sensibilities, given how we *feel* about slavery. Those are beside the point.) Hell, it is a fact the slavers often took slaves from Africa because of their skills. The slaves then applied those skills and could have, in fact, sold them in a market-based system. That does not mean that chattel slavery was a jobs program! That does not mean that chattel slavery was a good thing. That does not mean that the lives of these skilled laborers were improved by them being kidnapped and brought to America. Both can be true, i.e., they could learn things that were applicable outside of the slavery paradigm AND they could be victims of horrible, systematic racism-based brutality. I hope I conveyed the appropriate nuance. I am relatively certain, however, that either way, I will be "reeducated" by other posters. I look forward to it! If I feel differently after reading the piece, I reserve the right to amend my views!
Cool to see you again, man. You have more or less encapsulated my thoughts on this issue with the exception of one MAJOR piece: At what AGE do we (or should we) introduce this kind of nuance and detail into a kid's education?
I wrestle with that.
I think this curriculum is meant for middle school and high school, right? i.e., 11- and 12-year-olds, possibly? Is that a good age to talk about slavery in that way? If so, why not be as clear with respect to sexual assault and family separation practices during slavery? (Apparently the curriculum treats those last two more parenthetically.)
I submit Germany during WWII--The Nazi's:
A lot of technological advancements were born out of this shameful moment in history. Should we hide that fact from kids? I don't think so. But at what age should we insert that discussion? Should we put it in the *guidelines*?
These are not simple questions to me. (We're talking PUBLIC schools.)
As we grow into adulthood, no subject is off-limits in terms of Q&A as far as I am concerned, regardless of how we feel. But obviously, kids are not adults.
Charles, appreciate the kind words! There are a ton of things with which to "wrestle" as we examine this issue. I had not considered the age question, although I agree with your observation regarding the difficulty in properly timing discussions of complex subjects. TBH, I have no clue. I default to the "just offer all the facts and let the listeners sort it out" point of view.
At the obvious risk of breaking (unwritten) Internet and substack rules, I will still reply to my own post. I read the piece. This quote is instructive, "Presenting positive images of individuals effectively responding to inhumane circumstances is uplifting and no way undercuts recognition of those adversities." Exactly the point I attempted to make, albeit delivered amid much more nuanced and elegant, expository, prose. Spoiler Alert: Thrilled to agree with Robert Cherry, I am. Guess I won't have to amend my views after all, despite the fact that I apparently need some rest.
The people who really benefited from enslavement of Black people were white people. Teaching that Blacks benefited is just Lost Cause. Slavery was wrong, internment camps were wrong. Once you include benefits followed by benefits received by people who were never enslaved you lose trust that you can educate children. Florida colleges and universities will face difficulties attracting faculty as a result of having a slipshod public school system.
Please find and read the whole document. It is 216 pages of which I think the first 23 address what to teach about the black experience in America. It reads like a progressive's dream and does not minimize the harm of slavery.
The reason that one passage was lifted out of the document by people is it was the only one that could be weaponized to support the assertion that Florida's standards (and by extension, Republicans) are racist.
Investigate rather than believing what polarizers are telling you. Use your own judgement.
I would provide a link but I'm on my phone and too difficult to hunt it down, but it's not hard to find.
Don't with the narrative, the Progressives aren't interested in alternative thinking. If you doubt, observe how they treat those who leave the plantation.
The reason that people are suspicious is that it comes from Ron DeSantis’ department of education. DeSantis battled AP African-American history and supports book bans. The benefits could be weaponized because it is nonsense. I will point out again that when asked to provide names of those who benefited, the department of education broadcast its ignorance.
DeSantis put Christopher Rufo on a college board. One of the people put on his advisory board for the curriculum gave a sermon thanking God for slavery. Another supposed Black historian said Frederick Douglass learned to read in slavery. His Massa stopped Douglass from learning letters. His Mistress became angry at Douglass because her husband was angry with her. I’m supposed to trust these idiots to enforce an accurate curriculum?
Edit to add:
I read the PDF
Just words on paper when it comes to DeSantis
I’m disgusted by his treatment of Black Republicans
We will see what happens when school starts. When the curriculum is put into action we hopefully learn the facts. I am honest about my distrust of a DeSantis sanctioned education program.
Again, nuance. (Hell, I think I even said, "that does not mean slavery was a good thing.") Slavery was wrong. Agreed. Blacks were not improved by it. Agreed. However, it is still possible to develop skills, despite that mistreatment. The strongest people always find a way to maintain their dignity and leave with something. Viktor Frankl's lessons come to mind. That is all I am trying to say. More globally, I am tired of black people being viewed as never-ending victims, and maybe that is why this issue "hits different" for me. I also realize that teaching nuance in public schools might be an even bigger fool's errand than trying to convey it on substack.
Dealing with forbidden topics is a bad idea? Perhaps the author should have mentioned black slave holders. Perhaps he should have traced the slave trade back to Africa where blacks traded other blacks for profit and revenge.
How is it a bad idea to marvel at the human capacity to rise above rotten circumstances and even thrive? What shallow, demeaning thinking we have to deal with. Worthy of noted Democrat Senator John C. Calhoun. Sad, really.
At the risk of talking out of school, I will post BEFORE I read the full article. I contend that this statement... “slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit.” is NOT problematic. That is a fact. (It might be inelegant in its construction. It might insult our sensibilities, given how we *feel* about slavery. Those are beside the point.) Hell, it is a fact the slavers often took slaves from Africa because of their skills. The slaves then applied those skills and could have, in fact, sold them in a market-based system. That does not mean that chattel slavery was a jobs program! That does not mean that chattel slavery was a good thing. That does not mean that the lives of these skilled laborers were improved by them being kidnapped and brought to America. Both can be true, i.e., they could learn things that were applicable outside of the slavery paradigm AND they could be victims of horrible, systematic racism-based brutality. I hope I conveyed the appropriate nuance. I am relatively certain, however, that either way, I will be "reeducated" by other posters. I look forward to it! If I feel differently after reading the piece, I reserve the right to amend my views!
Wilster,
Cool to see you again, man. You have more or less encapsulated my thoughts on this issue with the exception of one MAJOR piece: At what AGE do we (or should we) introduce this kind of nuance and detail into a kid's education?
I wrestle with that.
I think this curriculum is meant for middle school and high school, right? i.e., 11- and 12-year-olds, possibly? Is that a good age to talk about slavery in that way? If so, why not be as clear with respect to sexual assault and family separation practices during slavery? (Apparently the curriculum treats those last two more parenthetically.)
I submit Germany during WWII--The Nazi's:
A lot of technological advancements were born out of this shameful moment in history. Should we hide that fact from kids? I don't think so. But at what age should we insert that discussion? Should we put it in the *guidelines*?
These are not simple questions to me. (We're talking PUBLIC schools.)
As we grow into adulthood, no subject is off-limits in terms of Q&A as far as I am concerned, regardless of how we feel. But obviously, kids are not adults.
Charles, appreciate the kind words! There are a ton of things with which to "wrestle" as we examine this issue. I had not considered the age question, although I agree with your observation regarding the difficulty in properly timing discussions of complex subjects. TBH, I have no clue. I default to the "just offer all the facts and let the listeners sort it out" point of view.
At the obvious risk of breaking (unwritten) Internet and substack rules, I will still reply to my own post. I read the piece. This quote is instructive, "Presenting positive images of individuals effectively responding to inhumane circumstances is uplifting and no way undercuts recognition of those adversities." Exactly the point I attempted to make, albeit delivered amid much more nuanced and elegant, expository, prose. Spoiler Alert: Thrilled to agree with Robert Cherry, I am. Guess I won't have to amend my views after all, despite the fact that I apparently need some rest.
The people who really benefited from enslavement of Black people were white people. Teaching that Blacks benefited is just Lost Cause. Slavery was wrong, internment camps were wrong. Once you include benefits followed by benefits received by people who were never enslaved you lose trust that you can educate children. Florida colleges and universities will face difficulties attracting faculty as a result of having a slipshod public school system.
Please find and read the whole document. It is 216 pages of which I think the first 23 address what to teach about the black experience in America. It reads like a progressive's dream and does not minimize the harm of slavery.
The reason that one passage was lifted out of the document by people is it was the only one that could be weaponized to support the assertion that Florida's standards (and by extension, Republicans) are racist.
Investigate rather than believing what polarizers are telling you. Use your own judgement.
I would provide a link but I'm on my phone and too difficult to hunt it down, but it's not hard to find.
Don't with the narrative, the Progressives aren't interested in alternative thinking. If you doubt, observe how they treat those who leave the plantation.
I can quote Scott, Donalds, and Hurd on the Republican plantation.
Can you name a Black Democrat who has been exiled?
Besides Justice Thomas and a host of others?
Can you translate to English?
The reason that people are suspicious is that it comes from Ron DeSantis’ department of education. DeSantis battled AP African-American history and supports book bans. The benefits could be weaponized because it is nonsense. I will point out again that when asked to provide names of those who benefited, the department of education broadcast its ignorance.
DeSantis put Christopher Rufo on a college board. One of the people put on his advisory board for the curriculum gave a sermon thanking God for slavery. Another supposed Black historian said Frederick Douglass learned to read in slavery. His Massa stopped Douglass from learning letters. His Mistress became angry at Douglass because her husband was angry with her. I’m supposed to trust these idiots to enforce an accurate curriculum?
Edit to add:
I read the PDF
Just words on paper when it comes to DeSantis
I’m disgusted by his treatment of Black Republicans
You are going to believe what you choose, no matter what the facts.
We will see what happens when school starts. When the curriculum is put into action we hopefully learn the facts. I am honest about my distrust of a DeSantis sanctioned education program.
That will be interesting to see what happens when students push back. Wouldn't come as any surprise if they are suspended or expelled.
Again, nuance. (Hell, I think I even said, "that does not mean slavery was a good thing.") Slavery was wrong. Agreed. Blacks were not improved by it. Agreed. However, it is still possible to develop skills, despite that mistreatment. The strongest people always find a way to maintain their dignity and leave with something. Viktor Frankl's lessons come to mind. That is all I am trying to say. More globally, I am tired of black people being viewed as never-ending victims, and maybe that is why this issue "hits different" for me. I also realize that teaching nuance in public schools might be an even bigger fool's errand than trying to convey it on substack.
I don’t care that you are tired.
Thank you for your intelligent commentary and concern.
Obviously, I am not concerned about you.
If you’re tired, get some rest
Dealing with forbidden topics is a bad idea? Perhaps the author should have mentioned black slave holders. Perhaps he should have traced the slave trade back to Africa where blacks traded other blacks for profit and revenge.
How is it a bad idea to marvel at the human capacity to rise above rotten circumstances and even thrive? What shallow, demeaning thinking we have to deal with. Worthy of noted Democrat Senator John C. Calhoun. Sad, really.