I have looked through the guidelines. I posted a Prager U video regarding Frederick Douglass. The video is trash. The words in the guidelines are meaningless given the content that will be presented in some classrooms. The fact that DeSantis supports the guidelines is important given his history.
If you take my favorite meal crafted by my favorite chef and serve it to me on a foul smelling garbage can top, it is garbage. There is no reason to trust the department of education in Florida. I will repeat again, when the department gave examples of the people who benefited from slavery, they demonstrated complete ignorance.
You seem to be knowledgeable about this history and also perhaps the politics. I can understand your cynicism and mistrust of De Santos and the Department of Education in Florida. I haven't really followed it much honestly, I just looked into it because it seemed that the media such as NYT and NPR and MSNBC were inaccurately reporting on this one phrase, blowing it all out of proportion, and NOT reporting on the rest of the document which from all accounts I have seen is surprisingly excellent. THAT'S the piece I am interested in, how the media across the spectrum contribute to confusion and polarization and don't help us actually solve our problems. It's just more us vs. them, endlessly, ad nauseum. I would have preferred they just said, "You can't trust Florida, no matter how good it looks!" Instead, they picked up on one phrase that could possibly be construed by some to imply that slavery had a silver lining or was "good." (I do not think it implies that, but assuming good faith, some people do think so.) Of course, there is painful history and a sensitivity there as I am sure you know, probably more than I do. During and since slavery pundits have tried to argue that slavery was good for the enslaved. That was one of its foundational moral justifications! Anything that even implies that idea is not only truly messed up, but is likely to cause an over-response by some, especially African Americans and others who see things through an "antiracism" lens.
What I hear you saying is that you do not believe it matters what the standards say, you do not trust their proper implementation because of the track record you have witnessed (including the video you shared). We will simply have to see how it plays out to know. I stand by my comments that it is still a good and important thing that the standards were, overall, well written and that it does matter. People in the Florida Department of Education did that, so I think that is meaningful. If the standards are not met, the schools can be challenged, there is a potential pathway to hold them accountable. I hope people do so.
As a life-long liberal, I have cynicism and mistrust of many institutions these days, including ones in liberal states like mine. I am not on any side anymore. It's a mess when none of us trust our institutions, and when it is difficult even to agree on basic tenets of reality.
We agree to disagree. I think Florida will scam the parents and students.
I am a Democrat by default. Republicans make clear that they are no friends to the Black community. Democratic legislators have many faults but they all pale in comparison to a party led by a bigoted conman who tried to stage a coup. I also see a party that is actively suppressing votes in Black communities across the country. I now see them participating in an effort to miseducate our children. Republicans are not worthy of my trust.
The Prager U video slanders Frederick Douglas. Douglass felt that the words of the Constitution made the overall document an anti slavery document. Amendments were needed to achieve that goal. What I find laughable is someone using that sentiment while supporting the disgusting Prager University video. My hope is when the Florida department of education implements its programs the higher ups in the department will show their true colors and a legal case can be made.
There are multiple books about the relationship between Douglass and Lincoln, among them
Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass: The Story Behind an American Friendship
The Radical and the Republican: Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the Triumph of Antislavery Politics
The Hammer and the Anvil: Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the End of Slavery in America
The Prager U video is a slap in the face. BTW William Lloyd Garrision supported Lincoln in fact Garrison published a defense of Lincoln in the Liberator. The Prager U video slander’ the full essence of Garrison
Aside from Douglass's several speeches discussing the Constitution, which he did refer to as a "glorious liberty document," even as he recognized the flaws of those who had been interpreting it, I also recommend his long, nuanced and complex oration on Lincoln at the unveiling of the Freedman's Monument in 1876. Douglass went from powerfully criticizing Lincoln to deeply admiring him, and all sides of his views come through in that oration. Plus, his powerful sense of love for what America was becoming and for its potential, even while seeing clearly its failings and backsliding. His anger and his love of country were perfectly fused. Something utterly lacking in the sour, ungrateful, cheap anti-Americanism inspiring today's woke warriors.
Perhaps it is you who should please stop. I note in your response to Elizabeth above here, you basically confirm the point about Douglass and the Constitution made by the Prager U video while continuing to trash it. You also confirm my points about Douglass and Lincoln by listing the books you refer to, while stilll continuing a posture of outraged indignation. About what is getting a bit harder to see.
Laughable. I point out the numerous flaws in the Prager U video. You fly right past that. The “set fires”opening, followed by the kids noting we have people like that now is obviously a reference to BLM. Garrison pointed out the good things Lincoln accomplished. Your attempt at distraction only works on Conservative sites or among Conservative circles. Taken outside of Conservative circles, people smell the stench of the Prager U Frederick Douglass crap. Prager U Candace Owens skit about white people not inventing slavery evokes laughter when discussing chattel slavery in the United States.
I changed my mind, please don’t stop, please take the Prager U nonsense out to the general public. I expect to see the Prager U bias challenged in court by teachers and parents. If Prager is acceptable, so is the 1619 Project.
The issue isn't the Prager U video, Robert, it is why you have decided to harp endlessly about it. It is not any part of the Florida standards, after all. I earlier said it was simplistic, though basically correct about Douglass and the Constitution. Which you actually acknowledge. But simplistic is not what bothers you about it actually. It;s just not rage filled enough, I guess. Your own analyses here are laced with a tone of absolute certainty and moral preening far in excess of what the Prager U video exhibits. I probably should not have bothered to engage as much as I have, so this will be it for me. Have at it if you need to.
No rage. No preening. The Construction had to be amended to achieve Douglass’ goal. I am absolutely certain the without amendment, the door was left open to slavery in the Constitution.
Edit to add:
Although the Constitution did not refer directly to slaves, it did not ignore them entirely. Article one, section two of the Constitution of the United States declared that any person who was not free would be counted as three-fifths of a free individual for the purposes of determining congressional representation. The "Three-Fifths Clause" thus increased the political power of slaveholding states. It did not, however, make any attempt to ensure that the interests of slaves would be represented in the government.
On the 200th anniversary of the ratification of the US Constitution, Thurgood Marshall, the first African American to sit on the Supreme Court, said that the Constitution was "defective from the start." He pointed out that the framers had left out a majority of Americans when they wrote the phrase, "We the People." While some members of the Constitutional Convention voiced "eloquent objections" to slavery, Marshall said they "consented to a document which laid a foundation for the tragic events which were to follow."
The Prager U video, which I somehow thought was connected to Hillsdale also. In any case, the video is obviously somewhat simplistic, but in fact Douglass did disagree with Garrison about compromise and did view the Constitution, properly interpreted, as a "glorious liberty document." As I said, nuanced. Love and anger, both. I will take the Prager U simplification over the much worse and angry simplification of the 1619 Project, which hardly even mentions Douglass.
I would strongly object to children being exposed to the biased Prager U video. It strengthens my point about the Florida curriculum will be worthless. Hopefully parents and teachers will take DeSantis to court.
I have looked through the guidelines. I posted a Prager U video regarding Frederick Douglass. The video is trash. The words in the guidelines are meaningless given the content that will be presented in some classrooms. The fact that DeSantis supports the guidelines is important given his history.
If you take my favorite meal crafted by my favorite chef and serve it to me on a foul smelling garbage can top, it is garbage. There is no reason to trust the department of education in Florida. I will repeat again, when the department gave examples of the people who benefited from slavery, they demonstrated complete ignorance.
You seem to be knowledgeable about this history and also perhaps the politics. I can understand your cynicism and mistrust of De Santos and the Department of Education in Florida. I haven't really followed it much honestly, I just looked into it because it seemed that the media such as NYT and NPR and MSNBC were inaccurately reporting on this one phrase, blowing it all out of proportion, and NOT reporting on the rest of the document which from all accounts I have seen is surprisingly excellent. THAT'S the piece I am interested in, how the media across the spectrum contribute to confusion and polarization and don't help us actually solve our problems. It's just more us vs. them, endlessly, ad nauseum. I would have preferred they just said, "You can't trust Florida, no matter how good it looks!" Instead, they picked up on one phrase that could possibly be construed by some to imply that slavery had a silver lining or was "good." (I do not think it implies that, but assuming good faith, some people do think so.) Of course, there is painful history and a sensitivity there as I am sure you know, probably more than I do. During and since slavery pundits have tried to argue that slavery was good for the enslaved. That was one of its foundational moral justifications! Anything that even implies that idea is not only truly messed up, but is likely to cause an over-response by some, especially African Americans and others who see things through an "antiracism" lens.
What I hear you saying is that you do not believe it matters what the standards say, you do not trust their proper implementation because of the track record you have witnessed (including the video you shared). We will simply have to see how it plays out to know. I stand by my comments that it is still a good and important thing that the standards were, overall, well written and that it does matter. People in the Florida Department of Education did that, so I think that is meaningful. If the standards are not met, the schools can be challenged, there is a potential pathway to hold them accountable. I hope people do so.
As a life-long liberal, I have cynicism and mistrust of many institutions these days, including ones in liberal states like mine. I am not on any side anymore. It's a mess when none of us trust our institutions, and when it is difficult even to agree on basic tenets of reality.
We agree to disagree. I think Florida will scam the parents and students.
I am a Democrat by default. Republicans make clear that they are no friends to the Black community. Democratic legislators have many faults but they all pale in comparison to a party led by a bigoted conman who tried to stage a coup. I also see a party that is actively suppressing votes in Black communities across the country. I now see them participating in an effort to miseducate our children. Republicans are not worthy of my trust.
The Prager U video slanders Frederick Douglas. Douglass felt that the words of the Constitution made the overall document an anti slavery document. Amendments were needed to achieve that goal. What I find laughable is someone using that sentiment while supporting the disgusting Prager University video. My hope is when the Florida department of education implements its programs the higher ups in the department will show their true colors and a legal case can be made.
There are multiple books about the relationship between Douglass and Lincoln, among them
Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass: The Story Behind an American Friendship
The Radical and the Republican: Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the Triumph of Antislavery Politics
The Hammer and the Anvil: Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the End of Slavery in America
The Prager U video is a slap in the face. BTW William Lloyd Garrision supported Lincoln in fact Garrison published a defense of Lincoln in the Liberator. The Prager U video slander’ the full essence of Garrison
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/defense-of-lincoln/
Aside from Douglass's several speeches discussing the Constitution, which he did refer to as a "glorious liberty document," even as he recognized the flaws of those who had been interpreting it, I also recommend his long, nuanced and complex oration on Lincoln at the unveiling of the Freedman's Monument in 1876. Douglass went from powerfully criticizing Lincoln to deeply admiring him, and all sides of his views come through in that oration. Plus, his powerful sense of love for what America was becoming and for its potential, even while seeing clearly its failings and backsliding. His anger and his love of country were perfectly fused. Something utterly lacking in the sour, ungrateful, cheap anti-Americanism inspiring today's woke warriors.
Please stop. Douglass would compare the current authoritarians to the Confederates.
When DeSantis changes, I may develop respect for him.
Perhaps it is you who should please stop. I note in your response to Elizabeth above here, you basically confirm the point about Douglass and the Constitution made by the Prager U video while continuing to trash it. You also confirm my points about Douglass and Lincoln by listing the books you refer to, while stilll continuing a posture of outraged indignation. About what is getting a bit harder to see.
Laughable. I point out the numerous flaws in the Prager U video. You fly right past that. The “set fires”opening, followed by the kids noting we have people like that now is obviously a reference to BLM. Garrison pointed out the good things Lincoln accomplished. Your attempt at distraction only works on Conservative sites or among Conservative circles. Taken outside of Conservative circles, people smell the stench of the Prager U Frederick Douglass crap. Prager U Candace Owens skit about white people not inventing slavery evokes laughter when discussing chattel slavery in the United States.
I changed my mind, please don’t stop, please take the Prager U nonsense out to the general public. I expect to see the Prager U bias challenged in court by teachers and parents. If Prager is acceptable, so is the 1619 Project.
The issue isn't the Prager U video, Robert, it is why you have decided to harp endlessly about it. It is not any part of the Florida standards, after all. I earlier said it was simplistic, though basically correct about Douglass and the Constitution. Which you actually acknowledge. But simplistic is not what bothers you about it actually. It;s just not rage filled enough, I guess. Your own analyses here are laced with a tone of absolute certainty and moral preening far in excess of what the Prager U video exhibits. I probably should not have bothered to engage as much as I have, so this will be it for me. Have at it if you need to.
Yes, my issue is the Prager U animation. Prager U is being allowed to be used in Florida classrooms
https://time.com/6301287/florida-prageru-education-schools/
No rage. No preening. The Construction had to be amended to achieve Douglass’ goal. I am absolutely certain the without amendment, the door was left open to slavery in the Constitution.
Edit to add:
Although the Constitution did not refer directly to slaves, it did not ignore them entirely. Article one, section two of the Constitution of the United States declared that any person who was not free would be counted as three-fifths of a free individual for the purposes of determining congressional representation. The "Three-Fifths Clause" thus increased the political power of slaveholding states. It did not, however, make any attempt to ensure that the interests of slaves would be represented in the government.
https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/experience/legal/docs2.html#:~:text=Article%20one%2C%20section%20two%20of,purposes%20of%20determining%20congressional%20representation.
On the 200th anniversary of the ratification of the US Constitution, Thurgood Marshall, the first African American to sit on the Supreme Court, said that the Constitution was "defective from the start." He pointed out that the framers had left out a majority of Americans when they wrote the phrase, "We the People." While some members of the Constitutional Convention voiced "eloquent objections" to slavery, Marshall said they "consented to a document which laid a foundation for the tragic events which were to follow."
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/teaching-resource/historical-context-constitution-and-slavery
I am so impressed with the complexity of your response compared to the Hillsdale video.
Which Hillsdale video?
The Prager U video, which I somehow thought was connected to Hillsdale also. In any case, the video is obviously somewhat simplistic, but in fact Douglass did disagree with Garrison about compromise and did view the Constitution, properly interpreted, as a "glorious liberty document." As I said, nuanced. Love and anger, both. I will take the Prager U simplification over the much worse and angry simplification of the 1619 Project, which hardly even mentions Douglass.
I would strongly object to children being exposed to the biased Prager U video. It strengthens my point about the Florida curriculum will be worthless. Hopefully parents and teachers will take DeSantis to court.
Edit to add:
1619 is NOT being taught. Strawman argument.