In this clip from Glenn and John’s most recent subscriber-only Q&A session, they discuss when it’s acceptable to apply statistical information and lived experience about racial disparities in violent behavior to real-life situations. Knowing that young black men in urban areas commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers, are we justified in regarding all young black men as potential threats? Or does is that mere racial stereotyping that leads us to treat individuals in an unjust way?
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GLENN LOURY: This is William.
On the general topic of racism, is it ever acceptable to apply general stats regarding violent crime among and between the races to our personal lives? For example, I believe you both have expressed that due to the current crime rates, it's perfectly rational to fear groups of young black men in downtown Chicago. And if that is acceptable, then when is the application of stats not acceptable? How would you define a truly racist act or belief?
Okay, I'll start off in responding to that question by saying, yes, it is sometimes acceptable to apply general stats regarding violent crime between and among the races to our personal lives. That's simply common sense. If I know that the offending population in a particular city at a particular point in time is vastly disproportionately black, and I see a group of black youngsters at 1:00 a.m. when I've come out of the club and I'm staggering to my car, and I see a group of white youngsters, and I regard the first as more menacing than the second, that's a protective inference that I'm making that I don't see how you could possibly regard as a morally inappropriate reflex.
And yes, it is a stereotype. Yes, stereotyping is a part of social life. We all do it in one circumstance or another. The fact that it's based upon race, it shouldn't be the end of my inquiry. I should pay attention to other facts about the situation that I'm attending to. But to ignore the racial disparity in the background, it seems to me, is asking way too much.
Now, is it asking too much of a police officer that he override the instinctual reflex to take on board racial statistics when he's deciding who to stop for a traffic violation? What about a professor who knows that the Asian kids in his classroom have gotten very high grades in the past? Should he pay more attention to the Asian kid’s question or give a greater latitude to the paper that he's grading that comes in from an Asian kid? Of course not. That would be, in my view, violative of basic principles.
But to tell me that I don't cross the street? Again, race is not the only thing, but race would be a part of it. To tell me that I don't cross the street when I feel threatened, I shouldn't feel threatened, I think that's asking way too much of people. I think the instinct to do that is deeply ingrained in our social behavior because that kind of information can be very valuable and make the difference of life and death in certain situations. And no, I don't believe it's racist to be afraid of a group of black teenagers on the streets of downtown Chicago at 11:00 p.m. No, I don't think that's crazy or racist, for that matter.
The question is, if they were white, would I not be afraid? And the answer is, in my case, probably I would not be as afraid. I'm going to just acknowledge that.
JOHN MCWHORTER: I agree with everything you said. I would just add that all of that is fact that cannot be escaped and a kind of stereotyping that must be pardoned. Because it's stereotyping, sometimes it is going to go wrong. Sometimes you are going to have a generalization that's going to turn out to be all wrong because stereotypes may have a basis in fact, but still they are stereotypes. That is a tough one.
And so for example, I'll openly admit: New York City. This is my city now for 22 years, and the subway is a fascinating place to observe all sorts of things going on, including how race lays out. And I've been riding that train most days of my life, for now a quarter century.
I would say that when somebody busts into the car from one end, which you're not supposed to do, but if somebody busts in, if I look up wondering who that person is and what might be coming, I will openly admit that if the person coming is some white guy—which it almost never is—then my thought is, whatever. He's desperate for a seat. If it's a black guy, there's a part of me that thinks, is the black guy going to be asking for money? Is the black guy going to start break dancing and accidentally maybe kick somebody in the head and say menacing things to the people in the car along the lines of “we need your positive energy,” but practically saying it with a frown, as if setting themselves up as adversaries of society who we owe money and attention? Frankly, that's a routine that the black break dancer guys do.
Now, often, it's a black guy who's just like the hypothetical white one. He just wants a seat. But I must admit that when they come, and especially if it's two, there's a part of me that thinks what's it going to be or is this person going to start yelling at people or something like that. Because the sad truth is—I'm sure it's happened, but I'm part of the statistics—I've never encountered a white guy on the New York subway yelling in people's faces and making people that uncomfortable. And I've certainly never encountered an Asian one or a South Asian one. A Latino one, occasionally. I'm probably forgetting one time, but that is the black guy.
Now there are reasons for that, sure. You're not gonna tell me I'm stereotyping. It's just fact, based on a quarter-century of living the life. So yeah, it's inevitable. That's just the way it goes.
I think there's an important implication of what you just said. That is, it's almost never a white guy who's the crazed person bursting into the car, threatening and so forth and so on. That's not to say that most black people do it. No, those are two different statements. It could be that very few black people do it.
But if it's almost never a white guy who does it in New York City subway—let me just stipulate that's a fact. I don't know the New York City subway, but okay, it sounds right to me—then when a white guy comes through there and you're not afraid, that's just the rational response to the situation. When a black guy comes through, it may be one in ten that he's actually a bad actor. But one in ten is a pretty high number if the bad actor's got a knife.
And the funny thing is, one time—talk about people who fall outside of your expectations—one time somebody comes breaking into the car, and this guy's an orator. Maybe he's on something, but he's an orator who thinks he's got political wisdom. It's a black guy, young black guy. And one of the things he said was, “And Charles Murray can kiss my ass!” It was a very well-read thug orator. He was just expecting everybody to know who that was. So that kind of went against the stereotype. But still, I wish she had not been yelling and screaming and making people uncomfortable.
Do you feel safe on the subway with your girls in New York City?
No, I don't. It's not as bad as it was about a year ago. That has to be acknowledged. But I worry. There's almost always somebody in the car if you stay in there long enough. It's not that I don't feel safe. It's not like there are people down there regularly shooting guns, et cetera. That makes the news. I've never seen a shooting. Watch it happen tomorrow.
But what you get is people who are angry and crazy. They're not happy crazy, they're angry crazy. And unfortunately, it's almost always a black guy. So if we're in the car and there's somebody who's laying out, stretched, sleeping on a seat and the other cars are full and you sit down, I worry. Because those guys tend not to stay asleep long. They wake up and they want to raise some hell.
It's the only way they have of having contact with people. I get it. I can imagine how they feel. But I don't like that my girls are growing up and they're seeing only black men doing that. And I can try to correct it, but—talk about stereotyping—they're not going to be able to help stereotyping based on what they see.
It's not a white guy who's waking up and screaming. Or if it is, it's much, much less often. The truth is, and I don't know what the answer to this is, the white guy is not confronting people and usually isn't angry. That's the thing. It's the black guy who wakes up, starts yelling. And maybe it's just general black pain, et cetera. But in terms of day-to-day experience, it's not something I like my girls seeing. It's hard. And that person is never Asian.
When is racial stereotyping acceptable?
That's a strange question, actually....if only because stereotyping -- the assignment of category-specific assumptions to a given/unknown individual or group of individuals who shares that category -- is most typically done subconsciously, automatically, and without any deliberate cognitive intervention. Stereotyping is a reflexive reaction to a situation which by its nature is triggering. We might as well ask when 'being startled' is acceptable. It is neither acceptable or unacceptable, it simply is. We stereotype by color, age, sex, size, walk, dress, sound, smell, etc. Everyone does and we do it constantly. A 'first impression' is formed within the first 7 seconds of a meeting based entirely on category stereotypes.
But when we broaden the question to consider what is really being asked here: when is it appropriate to take some action which -- nominally -- would seem to be racially keyed..... we are faced with different considerations, if only because this is not a reflexive/unconscious reaction we are evaluating, it is a deliberate decision. The answer, predictably, is: IT DEPENDS.
Per the example: I leave a downtown Club at 1:00 AM, and see a group of young Black males coming down the street towards me. What do I do? Here, the context is high-risk. If I behave as though this is 1:00 in the afternoon at a suburban mall....and I assume this group of young Black males is no different from a group of young White males, or young girls, or middle-aged Women...., and I'm wrong, then the consequences of such a race/sex/age-blind decision might be significantly costly. So I don't make a race/sex/age-blind decision and instead behave as though that group presents a potentially significant threat... and I go back inside the Club, or cross the street, or get in my car and lock the door. This is, as Glenn & John both note, only common sense.
Equally, if I am a cop, and I make a random stop because the driver exhibited some questionable behavior....if that driver is a young, Black male, then I am more alert than usual because sheer probability tells me (my experience tells me) that they present a greater risk. Again, the consequences of treating the driver as though he was a blue-haired little old lady are significantly costly if I'm wrong.
On the other hand, if I walk into a room and there's a Black man present, and he says, "Here, let me play you some of my favorite music"...and I respond by saying, "Don't bother, I hate hip-hop and rap!"... then THAT is an entirely inappropriate, wrong-headed reaction which could easily be labeled as racist.
In all 3 cases I make a decision which is racially keyed. Those same decisions are also age & sex keyed in that it is the combination of age, sex, and race together which drive the reaction. In the first two cases, the context is high-risk, and it is clearly in my own self-preservation-interest to make decisions which minimize that risk. In the last case the context is zero-risk, so the decision to make a race-age-sex-keyed decision is inappropriate & wrong. In all 3 cases my decisions could appear to be racist-leaning.
So what are left with?
When is it right and when is it wrong to discriminate on the basis of demographic category?
The answer is context specific.
If the context is one which presents a significant, personal risk....then we should act, always, in our own self-preserving interest. We'd be foolish to do otherwise (if only because no one wants to be the next 'Darwin Award Winner').
If the context is not explicitly risky.... then act, always, to grant the Other the benefit of the low-risk doubt. Maybe, in fact, the man who was going to play some music did end-up playing some unlistenable piece of hip-hop. The cost of having to endure it for 3 minutes is nothing....so polite, and smiling toleration and an open mind is still the correct reaction.
What is being considered here is not exclusively a race issue, though. If a beautiful, young female dresses in a skintight, provocatively alluring outfit and flirts outrageously while out on some Saturday evening, she should not be surprised to find herself approached (sometimes crudely) by men looking for a 'connection'. Certainly she can say, with extreme hauteur, 'I should be able to dress anyway I want, and say anything I wish, without fear of being propositioned by some idiot'...BUT....to the point made above, the TOTAL CONTEXT significantly increases the probability that she will, in fact, be propositioned...because the TOTAL CONTEXT increases the probability (for the man in question) that she, too, is interested in that same possibility of connection.
In this case, as the man weighs the risk/reward of a sexual approach, he most typically decides that the possibility of 'reward' outweighs the risk of being offensive. Equally for the young woman, if the risk of an offensive come-on outweighs the reward of 'dressing provocatively & flirting outrageously', then she should adjust her behavior accordingly.
In the end, I guess, we are left with what is reasonable. And sometimes what is reasonable is to make so-called racist or sexist or sizeist or ageist decisions because the context makes it so. Sometimes, as they say, a cigar is just a cigar.
When I see Black men behaving aggressively or in a rapper menacing way, I give a wide berth. That is not about skin color; it is behavioral.
Since Malcolm X, Black leaders are doubling and tripling down on distinctively Black behavior as a source of pride. Rather than slip the binds and be part of the mainstream social fabric of the nation, the legacy of slavery has chosen (particularly since the Civil Rights Era) to accentuate an anti-social behavior and tolerate criminality and family desertion.
Is some of this socio-economic? Yes. And when I see sketchy White men yelling and looking physically intimidating, I will get the hell out of their way.
Stereotyping is risk management. If Black leaders don’t like it, work on their brand.