Your discussion pointed out a key bit of “hypocrisy’ in the way society deals with sexual intercourse. In victorian times, holding hands was considered “intimate” (in today’s religious Jewish world, it still is)…in the early part of the 20th century, “kissing” was considered intimate.
We would all agree that “forced anything” is over the bounds….if one of the parties says “no”…it means “no”. But what if one of the parties does NOT say “no”….then it is in the mind of the individual as to whether or not consent was given and even in the best of times, words spoken in the heat of passion are often misunderstood and misinterpreted.
In the religious-Jewish dating world, the expectation is that men and women do not touch one another before they are married - so if it happens it is clear that the touch-er is not playing by the rules.
In the secular world - there aren’t any rules other than if one of the parties says “no". Much of the difficulties in this area could be cleared up if two people could decide a-priori whether or not they were "hooking up", "going out together" or "dating-for-the-purposes-of-ultimate-possible-marriage".
Your discussion pointed out a key bit of “hypocrisy’ in the way society deals with sexual intercourse. In victorian times, holding hands was considered “intimate” (in today’s religious Jewish world, it still is)…in the early part of the 20th century, “kissing” was considered intimate.
We would all agree that “forced anything” is over the bounds….if one of the parties says “no”…it means “no”. But what if one of the parties does NOT say “no”….then it is in the mind of the individual as to whether or not consent was given and even in the best of times, words spoken in the heat of passion are often misunderstood and misinterpreted.
In the religious-Jewish dating world, the expectation is that men and women do not touch one another before they are married - so if it happens it is clear that the touch-er is not playing by the rules.
In the secular world - there aren’t any rules other than if one of the parties says “no". Much of the difficulties in this area could be cleared up if two people could decide a-priori whether or not they were "hooking up", "going out together" or "dating-for-the-purposes-of-ultimate-possible-marriage".