Listen now (69 min) | My guest this week is Ernesto Cortes, an organizer and senior advisor with the Industrial Areas Foundation. Ernie has worked for decades with poor and working-class people in the Southwest, helping them agitate for public services and funding. He’s been recognized for this work by a long list of venerable institutions, including the MacArthur Foundation, which awarded him a “genius grant.” Along the way, as you’ll hear in this conversation, Ernie has developed a lot of ideas about power, community, and belief, and he’s not shy about talking about them.
Again, for those asking about audio quality, there were major problems. We've fixed what we can, and a different version of the mp3 is now available above for streaming and download. Improving video and audio quality is an ongoing concern for us, and some things are presently in the works that we believe will up our game. Many thanks for your patience.
A Catholic? I can't blame him for thinking about personal charity. In the past I had convinced myself if we could just force everyone to be more civil and responsible towards one another we could create Heaven on Earth. I was angry and bitter, constantly trying to reflect upon and resolve the issue of why the world is so unfair to many.
I was not spiritual at the time. I had slowly lost my faith over those years looking to mankind for the answers. Then I moved across the country with my growing family. I slowly regained level heading. It took me a year to realize how unhappy myself and the community I lived in was. We were folks who were constantly worried about controlling other's lives and thoughts. Expecting perfection from an imperfect world. Anyone who has lived in Portland long enough I believe can appreciate this feeling.
Alas, I slowly began to rekindle my spiritual fire. I started to remember all of those biblical lessons I learned during my K-5 Catholic schooling. Lessons I often used to challenge my own father, a self-proclaimed "righteous" and spiritual man. Verses and lessons which we cherry pick to get oneself out of an argument or onto the moral high ground. It's not the cherry picked lessons but the messaging as a whole that is of the most importance.
What I heard from Ernesto towards the end of this conversation took me back to that lost version of myself. A man so worried about others' actions or inactions that he's lost his faith. There is no Heaven here. Mankind should provide that promise to no one, yet so many today do.
Perfect timing to have watched the episode today as it ties into a link provided within an article from The Free Press.
"Multicultural Meritocracy: The Systematic Benefits of Valuing Diversity and Merit" Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 2017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103116306552. This was one link over from an article Neil Lewis, Jr. shared on LinkedIn so I could not read the entire thing.
Can this be re-released? The audio quality is terrible and this is such an important topic! I would love to be able to listen to the conversation as it occurred. Please and thank you.
This is a silly discussion, IMO. There are so many problems, especially if one has a command of the principles of "ECONOMICS."
First, understand that wise, tempered analysis is divorced from the use of "good" vs "bad". It should be divorced from Winners vs Losers.
In economics and economic history, we should recognize that the historical story is uneven, for a host of reasons. Thus, there should be no expectation that economic development in the US should or might be mirrored by nation states like Chad or Mali or Nigeria. Lots of differences, so we shall note that the cultural and material characteristics of these nations, even if under the rubric of "capitalism," are not the same. Nor is there any reason to assume that they should be the same, historically, or even contemporaneously. Related to the discussion that Glenn has with Cortes, I think it is clear that the protagonists, themselves, are unclear.
Since capitalism is a process that is uneven, we should realize that some nations/cultures/economies do not, and will not, share the same outcomes. This is NOT, repeat NOT a case of winners and losers. Rather, it is simply the amoral assessment that capitalism grows in different ways and at different speeds for different nations/geography, and cultures.
To conclude that hard working folks "deserve" success, while those who do less well, are "losers," is a silly way to formulate the the issue. Reason -- > all groups/nations/people don't 'progress' at the speed. So that some nations/cultures flourish while others, as equally hard-working, do not, is a story about the empirical manifestations of capitalism. It is NOT about Winners vs Losers.
Capitalism on Lake Louise in the Alberta, Canada is far different than capitalism in Manhattan. Agricultural production of rice (or cotton) in Arkansas is far different than the agricultural production of dairy farms in the UP of Michigan or California's Death Valley.
Meritocracy? Merit? If society does not reward hard work, risk and thoughtful initiative with greater rewards or benefits than passive lives on welfare, there is little hope for an increase in social and individual GNP ---> Consumption levels.
Why should anyone assume that economic growth/prosperity of a town in Iowa should be the same as the dry grasslands of Eastern Montana?
From what I could comprehend of the discussion through the audio failures, Cortes is a fascinating man with a sharp intellect and points of view worth contemplating. In other words, he was a well chosen guest for TGS, as most TGS guests are. But to refer to what went wrong as “some audio issues” is to vastly understate the problem. It was much worse than a small glitch. It rendered the experience of listening maddeningly unpleasant. I love TGS, so I hope there has been a robust response by the techies to make sure this doesn’t happen again. If possible, re-invite Cortes and play a mulligan.
Several times Loury and Cortes are both speaking at the same time. Maybe because of a lag in their hearing each other. Is there a way to separate out their voices in this recording so the listener hears them sequentially? This is such an interesting conversation it would be great to be able to hear all of it. Thanks for continuing to provide such thoughtful, thought-provoking content.
Again, for those asking about audio quality, there were major problems. We've fixed what we can, and a different version of the mp3 is now available above for streaming and download. Improving video and audio quality is an ongoing concern for us, and some things are presently in the works that we believe will up our game. Many thanks for your patience.
FYI https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/stage/2023/02/04/irish-directors-all-male-beckett-play-cancelled-as-only-men-could-audition/?fbclid=IwAR06l4661AdeYdMjortSV1OQnyH0oEITl33NNpX-MwTTZicMpr_kNLrh7Cc
A Catholic? I can't blame him for thinking about personal charity. In the past I had convinced myself if we could just force everyone to be more civil and responsible towards one another we could create Heaven on Earth. I was angry and bitter, constantly trying to reflect upon and resolve the issue of why the world is so unfair to many.
I was not spiritual at the time. I had slowly lost my faith over those years looking to mankind for the answers. Then I moved across the country with my growing family. I slowly regained level heading. It took me a year to realize how unhappy myself and the community I lived in was. We were folks who were constantly worried about controlling other's lives and thoughts. Expecting perfection from an imperfect world. Anyone who has lived in Portland long enough I believe can appreciate this feeling.
Alas, I slowly began to rekindle my spiritual fire. I started to remember all of those biblical lessons I learned during my K-5 Catholic schooling. Lessons I often used to challenge my own father, a self-proclaimed "righteous" and spiritual man. Verses and lessons which we cherry pick to get oneself out of an argument or onto the moral high ground. It's not the cherry picked lessons but the messaging as a whole that is of the most importance.
What I heard from Ernesto towards the end of this conversation took me back to that lost version of myself. A man so worried about others' actions or inactions that he's lost his faith. There is no Heaven here. Mankind should provide that promise to no one, yet so many today do.
Perfect timing to have watched the episode today as it ties into a link provided within an article from The Free Press.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Very interesting!
"Multicultural Meritocracy: The Systematic Benefits of Valuing Diversity and Merit" Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 2017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103116306552. This was one link over from an article Neil Lewis, Jr. shared on LinkedIn so I could not read the entire thing.
Can this be re-released? The audio quality is terrible and this is such an important topic! I would love to be able to listen to the conversation as it occurred. Please and thank you.
This is a silly discussion, IMO. There are so many problems, especially if one has a command of the principles of "ECONOMICS."
First, understand that wise, tempered analysis is divorced from the use of "good" vs "bad". It should be divorced from Winners vs Losers.
In economics and economic history, we should recognize that the historical story is uneven, for a host of reasons. Thus, there should be no expectation that economic development in the US should or might be mirrored by nation states like Chad or Mali or Nigeria. Lots of differences, so we shall note that the cultural and material characteristics of these nations, even if under the rubric of "capitalism," are not the same. Nor is there any reason to assume that they should be the same, historically, or even contemporaneously. Related to the discussion that Glenn has with Cortes, I think it is clear that the protagonists, themselves, are unclear.
Since capitalism is a process that is uneven, we should realize that some nations/cultures/economies do not, and will not, share the same outcomes. This is NOT, repeat NOT a case of winners and losers. Rather, it is simply the amoral assessment that capitalism grows in different ways and at different speeds for different nations/geography, and cultures.
To conclude that hard working folks "deserve" success, while those who do less well, are "losers," is a silly way to formulate the the issue. Reason -- > all groups/nations/people don't 'progress' at the speed. So that some nations/cultures flourish while others, as equally hard-working, do not, is a story about the empirical manifestations of capitalism. It is NOT about Winners vs Losers.
Capitalism on Lake Louise in the Alberta, Canada is far different than capitalism in Manhattan. Agricultural production of rice (or cotton) in Arkansas is far different than the agricultural production of dairy farms in the UP of Michigan or California's Death Valley.
Meritocracy? Merit? If society does not reward hard work, risk and thoughtful initiative with greater rewards or benefits than passive lives on welfare, there is little hope for an increase in social and individual GNP ---> Consumption levels.
Why should anyone assume that economic growth/prosperity of a town in Iowa should be the same as the dry grasslands of Eastern Montana?
For those frustrated by the audio quality in the podcast feed.
The listenable and very worthwhile video of the conversation is posted on youtube! https://youtu.be/96_8An00jQQ
Thanks!
Unfortunately this episode was largely unlistenable due to the parties speaking over one another - sounds like a mixing/editing issue :(
From what I could comprehend of the discussion through the audio failures, Cortes is a fascinating man with a sharp intellect and points of view worth contemplating. In other words, he was a well chosen guest for TGS, as most TGS guests are. But to refer to what went wrong as “some audio issues” is to vastly understate the problem. It was much worse than a small glitch. It rendered the experience of listening maddeningly unpleasant. I love TGS, so I hope there has been a robust response by the techies to make sure this doesn’t happen again. If possible, re-invite Cortes and play a mulligan.
TGS has been screwing the pooch on audio AND video for getting on 20 years. Why stop now?
Several times Loury and Cortes are both speaking at the same time. Maybe because of a lag in their hearing each other. Is there a way to separate out their voices in this recording so the listener hears them sequentially? This is such an interesting conversation it would be great to be able to hear all of it. Thanks for continuing to provide such thoughtful, thought-provoking content.
Cortes refers to an article in Commentary magazine that is required reading for organizers, “From Protest to Politics” by Bayard Rustin. Here’s a link to that 1965 article: https://www.commentary.org/articles/bayard-rustin-2/from-protest-to-politics-the-future-of-the-civil-rights-movement/