Good discussion. John & Glenn, I don’t understand how people can’t see the media censorship and COVID fear mongering and “accommodations” as very suggestive of election tampering.
Where do you draw the line between politicking and election interference? And why does that line seem to move depending on your party?
The deep state can work with media to censor and control messages for the deep state candidate , but if Trump even expresses an objection to the outcome he is a criminal?
I missed the Monday episode, (I was finishing one of my letters that includes table of contents). I agree with John that rap is poetry. Question for John: What is the current phase of rap evolving into?
No !!!! like graffiti it is minor crime ( not Art) for the most part. Fetishized by “ smart “ people who didn’t see the “Art” destroying neighborhoods and public transit. “Mos Def” is poetry but most is just pop culture. Hard to see and hear especially when it blares at us. Crude messages...very very violent very pro failure and pro drug culture. I got mine. But no censorship of music or art .
This poetry was written by the German dictator, Adolf Hitler in 1923. This poem was dedicated for his beloved mother. Even a dictator who had killed millions of people loved his mother very much. However, no rhymes. Thugs? Lol!
I remember arguing with a colleague who was a creative writer in the English Department and who was angry that Bob Dylan got the Nobel Prize for Literature. My view is that poetry's origins are entwined with music, so why not? Not so sure if Rap has produced its Dylan, and not sure if the music form sets limits on what its lyricism can accomplish, and limits it to "rhyming" as people refer to it. But what do I know? I generally don't enjoy the form, and perhaps that's a blind spot.
I’d guess that nearly all of us could seamlessly sing along with hundreds of pop/rock songs—great, good, and mediocre songs. And rap music, which started as an art more insular and far rowdier, has become pop/rock. And I think it has suffered as an art form as it’s become more popular. Or perhaps that’s just me being an old school fan of pretty much every art form.
My thought on John's comment is that there are all sorts of ways to get a hit pop SONG, and compelling verse is just one of them (and not the best one). For a song, it is better to have a catchy hook or a singer with a great voice than great lyrics. Some songs do have great lyrics, of course, but because they aren't essential many songs do not.
Rap is different in the sense that, like poetry, it has to be about the words.
Whether rap is poetry is an interesting question, but I agreed more with John's comment that where people no longer know poetry they know song lyrics. I'm appalled when I think of how much of my brain space is full of lyrics, not even consciously learned but ambiently acquired through decades of proximity to a radio. Everything from Etta James to EMINEM. (I'm never good at rote learning things I want to learn, but songs just seep in on their own).
Love you guys. It should be obvious here that--there are different levels of poetry, different levels of any art form. Buddy Holly singing "Peggy Sue, please be true..." is a different level from Walt Whitman. I grew up with and love Motown but, it's not Bach. Different levels. We can still love each level for what it gives us, but, perhaps there's a question of establishing where a given rap performance or style sits in the spectrum of art, right? And although that's very subjective and different for each of us, there's also something called "Objective Art"--certain classical masterpieces or architecture which affect everyone the same way. It's clear to a music historian that, for example, there are certain periods of jazz(50's-60's) Rock(mid-60's through early 70's?) Classical (you get the idea) are the peak creative times of a given genre. Meaning, some "poetry" is better than others. Hard not to compare, right? -Snobby Jazz Musician
Doggerel is a technical literary term that describes an oral tradition of rhyming couplets by a peasant class. We could say this isn’t literature, or we could say we needed audio recording equipment suitable for everyday use to fully appreciate what the medium has to offer. Audio recording has become an everyday work item, like a plow, or a shovel. This is the grand drama of the human race in all of its splendor rising up as music to catch the ears of the lords above in a cultural gift of rhythm and words. The filth and violence of the genre are a mirror of all the ghosts it took to make this music.
I suppose the point of John's NYT piece on rap is that even in a dumpster, our basic humanity persists in the form of linguistic innovation. In particular, Black English, which is often unfairly maligned by the layperson as broken or illogical, is extremely rich, with both formal (Paul Laurence Dunbar) and informal (Shawn Corey Carter) poetic traditions, and it continues to progress rapidly, in many ways unfettered by the standard language.
Insomuch as John is celebrating this innovation and he recognizes the context in which his writing appears, he might have taken care to discuss whether rap is a form of black exceptionalism — whether, in fact, innovation has anything to do with "blackness" at all — and lament, in same breath, the great loss of formal language arts in our culture. These omissions give me the impression of coyness, especially in light of his previous work, which is critical of both hip hop and the decline of writing.
Good discussion. John & Glenn, I don’t understand how people can’t see the media censorship and COVID fear mongering and “accommodations” as very suggestive of election tampering.
Where do you draw the line between politicking and election interference? And why does that line seem to move depending on your party?
The deep state can work with media to censor and control messages for the deep state candidate , but if Trump even expresses an objection to the outcome he is a criminal?
I missed the Monday episode, (I was finishing one of my letters that includes table of contents). I agree with John that rap is poetry. Question for John: What is the current phase of rap evolving into?
No !!!! like graffiti it is minor crime ( not Art) for the most part. Fetishized by “ smart “ people who didn’t see the “Art” destroying neighborhoods and public transit. “Mos Def” is poetry but most is just pop culture. Hard to see and hear especially when it blares at us. Crude messages...very very violent very pro failure and pro drug culture. I got mine. But no censorship of music or art .
This poetry was written by the German dictator, Adolf Hitler in 1923. This poem was dedicated for his beloved mother. Even a dictator who had killed millions of people loved his mother very much. However, no rhymes. Thugs? Lol!
The Mother
“When your mother has grown older,
When her dear, faithful eyes
no longer see life as they once did,
When her feet, grown tired,
No longer want to carry her as she walks –
Then lend her your arm in support,
Escort her with happy pleasure.
The hour will come when, weeping, you
Must accompany her on her final walk.
And if she asks you something,
Then give her an answer.
And if she asks again, then speak!
And if she asks yet again, respond to her,
Not impatiently, but with gentle calm.
And if she cannot understand you properly
Explain all to her happily.
The hour will come, the bitter hour,
When her mouth asks for nothing more.”
Adolf Hitler, 1923.
I remember arguing with a colleague who was a creative writer in the English Department and who was angry that Bob Dylan got the Nobel Prize for Literature. My view is that poetry's origins are entwined with music, so why not? Not so sure if Rap has produced its Dylan, and not sure if the music form sets limits on what its lyricism can accomplish, and limits it to "rhyming" as people refer to it. But what do I know? I generally don't enjoy the form, and perhaps that's a blind spot.
The guys would appreciate one of my favorite rap verses:
Crack heads stand adjacent
Anger displacement from food stamp arrangements
You were a still born baby, mother didn't want you
But you were still born
Boy meets world, of course his pops is gone, what you figure
That chalky outline on the ground is a father figure?
So he steps to the next stencil, that's a hustler
Infested with money and diamond cluster
I’d guess that nearly all of us could seamlessly sing along with hundreds of pop/rock songs—great, good, and mediocre songs. And rap music, which started as an art more insular and far rowdier, has become pop/rock. And I think it has suffered as an art form as it’s become more popular. Or perhaps that’s just me being an old school fan of pretty much every art form.
My thought on John's comment is that there are all sorts of ways to get a hit pop SONG, and compelling verse is just one of them (and not the best one). For a song, it is better to have a catchy hook or a singer with a great voice than great lyrics. Some songs do have great lyrics, of course, but because they aren't essential many songs do not.
Rap is different in the sense that, like poetry, it has to be about the words.
Not a shred of a doubt
From the instant they start:
I may hate what they say,
But how they say it is art.
One who'd deny it
(I don't mean to be rude)
Risks coming across
As a post-modern prude....
So praise to McWhorter,
Prof. Loury and all,
For debating such questions
And braving the squall!
-- Random thoughts enjoying yet another M-L debate.
Whether rap is poetry is an interesting question, but I agreed more with John's comment that where people no longer know poetry they know song lyrics. I'm appalled when I think of how much of my brain space is full of lyrics, not even consciously learned but ambiently acquired through decades of proximity to a radio. Everything from Etta James to EMINEM. (I'm never good at rote learning things I want to learn, but songs just seep in on their own).
It sure isn't America's music. It would have to be music for that.
"It was once said by a man who couldn't quit.
"Dopeman, please, can I have another hit?"
The Dopeman said, "Cluck, I don't give a shit.
If your girl kneels down and sucks my dick!"
It all happened and the guy tried to choke her.
Nigga didn't care, she ain't nothing but a smoker.
That's the way it goes, that's the name of the game.
Young brother getting over by slangin' caine."
I hope not.
Love you guys. It should be obvious here that--there are different levels of poetry, different levels of any art form. Buddy Holly singing "Peggy Sue, please be true..." is a different level from Walt Whitman. I grew up with and love Motown but, it's not Bach. Different levels. We can still love each level for what it gives us, but, perhaps there's a question of establishing where a given rap performance or style sits in the spectrum of art, right? And although that's very subjective and different for each of us, there's also something called "Objective Art"--certain classical masterpieces or architecture which affect everyone the same way. It's clear to a music historian that, for example, there are certain periods of jazz(50's-60's) Rock(mid-60's through early 70's?) Classical (you get the idea) are the peak creative times of a given genre. Meaning, some "poetry" is better than others. Hard not to compare, right? -Snobby Jazz Musician
Doggerel is a technical literary term that describes an oral tradition of rhyming couplets by a peasant class. We could say this isn’t literature, or we could say we needed audio recording equipment suitable for everyday use to fully appreciate what the medium has to offer. Audio recording has become an everyday work item, like a plow, or a shovel. This is the grand drama of the human race in all of its splendor rising up as music to catch the ears of the lords above in a cultural gift of rhythm and words. The filth and violence of the genre are a mirror of all the ghosts it took to make this music.
I suppose the point of John's NYT piece on rap is that even in a dumpster, our basic humanity persists in the form of linguistic innovation. In particular, Black English, which is often unfairly maligned by the layperson as broken or illogical, is extremely rich, with both formal (Paul Laurence Dunbar) and informal (Shawn Corey Carter) poetic traditions, and it continues to progress rapidly, in many ways unfettered by the standard language.
Insomuch as John is celebrating this innovation and he recognizes the context in which his writing appears, he might have taken care to discuss whether rap is a form of black exceptionalism — whether, in fact, innovation has anything to do with "blackness" at all — and lament, in same breath, the great loss of formal language arts in our culture. These omissions give me the impression of coyness, especially in light of his previous work, which is critical of both hip hop and the decline of writing.
Is rap poetry? Unequivocally yes. Are you paying attention, Swedish Academy? You guys gave it to Bob Dylan. You can send an even bolder message next.
All my wenches love me, and I love all my wenches...