Glenn, you both have contributed and added to the lives of all Americans. I always observed a common thread in your discussions that was relative to all Americans. Your commentary on the surface addressed racial “issues”, at it core were the common human issues of respect for the individual (regardless of race) and an upholding of our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
This was revealed in how you and John challenge each other and still have a sense of humor.
Yes, please! Don't go away, Glenn and John! I think you both will always be needed. Your type of intellectual discourse is increasingly rare. I'm a fan for life.
As a graduate of Brown some 60:years ago and long reader of John’s writings, I was glad to follow you. I agreed with your view of the 16 whatever rule…I learned one aspect of woke was wrong I loved your mea culpa, Glenn, but am rather more impressed with prof Sandel today. I’ve been struggling to read Corey Brettschneider’s book the “ President and the People”. A colleague of yours. Frederick Douglass had strong and correct views, black people deserve equal voting, equal pay for same work. There is a long strain of white nationalism, often Cristian and thus antisemitic. This is wrong
Not to be hyperbolic, but I feel so lucky to have stumbled on Glenn’s show several years ago. Both he and John are willing to share the experience of what it means to be a human being and a public intellectual. The ability to share contradictory thoughts, change positions based on time or evidence, be unpopular and ostracized in public and still show up and share it all. Maybe because I am overly sensitive and raising teenagers, but I find this level of honesty moves me to tears and give me hope.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts in such an organized and interesting way. You are true intellectual leaders.
I do hope that Glenn does not give up the fight. Unfortunately, the ideological camps around race have settled into Democrat and Republican. So, you have almost 50% of the country supporting a view on race that is antithesis to the views of the other 50%. One has power now and we are seeing the dismantling of the views of the other. What happens when the Dems get back in control? With their current ideological base, they will just institute the same racist discriminatory practices. There was a small window not too long ago where it seemed that both controlling parties bases had shared an ideological belief that “equality” was the goal; not “equity.” I don’t see this country healing, until the Dems give up on “equity” and fight for “equality” again. It took equity several decades to become the ideal of the Dem party as it quietly did its slow march through the institutions and entrenched with Obama. It will take decades to root that out of our institutions to the point where elected Dems will not push that agenda. But it wont be rooted out without constant pressure and addressing the instances it pops up.
I hear people throwing "equity" and "equality" around a lot and there are so many definitions and interpretations of them. What do those terms mean to you? Trying to understand your comment.
Cmon Dennis. EVERYONE knows what they mean, and what the difference is. One is a 'liberal' value, the other is draconian bullshit. Let's not pretend otherwise, mmk?
I've worked in big organizations and live in a very diverse city and people have different definitions and interpretations about the terms. For example, how would you apply M.J.S.'s definitions to the following non-race/gender scenarios:
1. Kids with a diagnosed learning disability getting extra time to complete standardized tests with big implications like the SAT. Should they get the extra time?
2. The big orgs in my area have programs that grant preferences to job candidates with military veteran status. Many also have supplier diversity programs that give preferences to vetern owned businesses. Is that fair to job candidates or non-veteran owned businesses?
Those two scenarios are real and I've seen people add nuance to seemingly rigid definitions when you have real life situations you need to contend with or personally impacts you or someone you care about.
So that's why asked M.S.J. for his perspective and definitions and I appreciate him responding.
In the SAT scenario. What about students that take the tests in allotted time, but score less than those students who were given extra time? Is it fair to the students held to standards of everyone else but do not score as well as students given more time? If they were given more time, would they score the same or better than those students who were given more time. I am sure that there are many students that are not diagnosed but have learning disabilities. They are not given extra time. Is it fair to them? What type of learning disabilities are you talking about that are given extra time? There are a spectrum of learning disabilities and physical disabilities. Are we to allocate more time based on these spectrums? Standards are standards for a reason. They are to measure a certain persons capability under certain restrictions/variables
Lets put his in a real life scenario. What if 2 FAA air traffic controller applicants can come up with the same conclusion and decision but one is 10 minutes faster in that conclusion… 5 minutes faster…even 30 seconds faster can mean loss of life or near miss scenarios. When deviating from merit based ideals, not matter how gracious or good the intent, there are impacts unseen and seen.
As far as military diversity you speak.. I to am part of the corporate world. I have yet to see when military owned businesses or personnel are sought ought that it does not include with the by line of minority owned whether that be gender, race, sexual preference etc. The missing group is always straight white male.
Thanks for the reply. The way you explored the scenario in alignment with your principles is missing in the rooms and conversations I've been a part of. As for most government jobs, the testing criteria adjusts for the job. My hope is that the testing, like in the FAA scenario you gave, simulates real world scenarios and pressures to ensure qualified candidates are in the roles. I don't have any reason to believe that this isn't happening contrary to splashy headlines about DEI hires - the data isn't usually shared in these DEI claims.
I've worked in purchasing and contracts and most of the vet owned businesses are majority owned by white guys. To me, no harm no foul - they're the majority of the pool. As for total numbers, number of contracts and their dollar amounts, the majority of them are held by companies that are big public corps (Sodexo for example for food and custodial services). The rest of the contracts we're awarded to corps and firms that are owned by white guys. Sometimes I wish these conversations took the actual data, when it's available, into the dialogue.
Actually, I chose the FAA scenario because of their past DEI practices. Top graduates and top tiered applicants were removed from hiring pools because they were not the correct ethnicity. Were the different ethnicities qualified for the position? Perhaps. but were they most qualified and best persons that could perform that job the the highest standards? No. https://mslegal.org/2019/11/biographical-questions-forced-top-atc-candidates-out-of-faa-hiring-pool/ I can post several articles, interviews and investigative journalism about what happened to the FAA under Obama. How they instituted new biographical testing standards. Class Action lawsuits, etc...
Give a bureaucracy the chance to favor groups they like and they’ll maximize their power. The examples you provide offer benefits based on subjective criteria, excluding military vet status, which is obviously provable.
I'll be honest, I don't understand your comment in relation to mine. All groups, from a hiking club to a government agency, give preferences to characteristics they like or need. And fyi - an overwhelming majority of disabilities are provable.
Equality means equal treatment, unbiased competition and impartially judged outcomes. Equity means equal outcomes, achieved if necessary by unequal treatment, biased competition and preferential judging. on the one camp, are those who agree that racial discrimination is morally wrong and support equal treatment under the law regardless of race and skin color. The other camp support "racial equity" and advocate treating people differently and preferentially based on their race and skin color.
I hope you will take on the need for K-12 education that works for all kids. We know that black kids who fail in public schools can succeed in schools that inspire them.
what about failing white kids? White kids perform 50% proficiency at reading grade level. That is a failing grade. You say education that works for all kids... but then single out black kids performance.
I singled out black kids because my reply was to two wonderful black men and I share their concern about the education of black kids.
But I agree that our public schools perform poorly for all kids. I believe permitting parents to choose the best alternative for their children is a key factor in getting kids into schools that are attuned to each child’s learning needs. Boy do we need that.
Glenn, you both have contributed and added to the lives of all Americans. I always observed a common thread in your discussions that was relative to all Americans. Your commentary on the surface addressed racial “issues”, at it core were the common human issues of respect for the individual (regardless of race) and an upholding of our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
This was revealed in how you and John challenge each other and still have a sense of humor.
Keep up the good work
Thank you both
Yes, please! Don't go away, Glenn and John! I think you both will always be needed. Your type of intellectual discourse is increasingly rare. I'm a fan for life.
As a graduate of Brown some 60:years ago and long reader of John’s writings, I was glad to follow you. I agreed with your view of the 16 whatever rule…I learned one aspect of woke was wrong I loved your mea culpa, Glenn, but am rather more impressed with prof Sandel today. I’ve been struggling to read Corey Brettschneider’s book the “ President and the People”. A colleague of yours. Frederick Douglass had strong and correct views, black people deserve equal voting, equal pay for same work. There is a long strain of white nationalism, often Cristian and thus antisemitic. This is wrong
"Identitarianism" -- James Carville
There is some foundational earth movement when the likes of James Carville refer to a leg of the Democrat Platform as a pejorative!
And yet, what has he done the last 30+ years? Push Dems while remaining silent on their bullshit. No thx
Not to be hyperbolic, but I feel so lucky to have stumbled on Glenn’s show several years ago. Both he and John are willing to share the experience of what it means to be a human being and a public intellectual. The ability to share contradictory thoughts, change positions based on time or evidence, be unpopular and ostracized in public and still show up and share it all. Maybe because I am overly sensitive and raising teenagers, but I find this level of honesty moves me to tears and give me hope.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts in such an organized and interesting way. You are true intellectual leaders.
I do hope that Glenn does not give up the fight. Unfortunately, the ideological camps around race have settled into Democrat and Republican. So, you have almost 50% of the country supporting a view on race that is antithesis to the views of the other 50%. One has power now and we are seeing the dismantling of the views of the other. What happens when the Dems get back in control? With their current ideological base, they will just institute the same racist discriminatory practices. There was a small window not too long ago where it seemed that both controlling parties bases had shared an ideological belief that “equality” was the goal; not “equity.” I don’t see this country healing, until the Dems give up on “equity” and fight for “equality” again. It took equity several decades to become the ideal of the Dem party as it quietly did its slow march through the institutions and entrenched with Obama. It will take decades to root that out of our institutions to the point where elected Dems will not push that agenda. But it wont be rooted out without constant pressure and addressing the instances it pops up.
I hear people throwing "equity" and "equality" around a lot and there are so many definitions and interpretations of them. What do those terms mean to you? Trying to understand your comment.
Cmon Dennis. EVERYONE knows what they mean, and what the difference is. One is a 'liberal' value, the other is draconian bullshit. Let's not pretend otherwise, mmk?
I've worked in big organizations and live in a very diverse city and people have different definitions and interpretations about the terms. For example, how would you apply M.J.S.'s definitions to the following non-race/gender scenarios:
1. Kids with a diagnosed learning disability getting extra time to complete standardized tests with big implications like the SAT. Should they get the extra time?
2. The big orgs in my area have programs that grant preferences to job candidates with military veteran status. Many also have supplier diversity programs that give preferences to vetern owned businesses. Is that fair to job candidates or non-veteran owned businesses?
Those two scenarios are real and I've seen people add nuance to seemingly rigid definitions when you have real life situations you need to contend with or personally impacts you or someone you care about.
So that's why asked M.S.J. for his perspective and definitions and I appreciate him responding.
In the SAT scenario. What about students that take the tests in allotted time, but score less than those students who were given extra time? Is it fair to the students held to standards of everyone else but do not score as well as students given more time? If they were given more time, would they score the same or better than those students who were given more time. I am sure that there are many students that are not diagnosed but have learning disabilities. They are not given extra time. Is it fair to them? What type of learning disabilities are you talking about that are given extra time? There are a spectrum of learning disabilities and physical disabilities. Are we to allocate more time based on these spectrums? Standards are standards for a reason. They are to measure a certain persons capability under certain restrictions/variables
Lets put his in a real life scenario. What if 2 FAA air traffic controller applicants can come up with the same conclusion and decision but one is 10 minutes faster in that conclusion… 5 minutes faster…even 30 seconds faster can mean loss of life or near miss scenarios. When deviating from merit based ideals, not matter how gracious or good the intent, there are impacts unseen and seen.
As far as military diversity you speak.. I to am part of the corporate world. I have yet to see when military owned businesses or personnel are sought ought that it does not include with the by line of minority owned whether that be gender, race, sexual preference etc. The missing group is always straight white male.
Thanks for the reply. The way you explored the scenario in alignment with your principles is missing in the rooms and conversations I've been a part of. As for most government jobs, the testing criteria adjusts for the job. My hope is that the testing, like in the FAA scenario you gave, simulates real world scenarios and pressures to ensure qualified candidates are in the roles. I don't have any reason to believe that this isn't happening contrary to splashy headlines about DEI hires - the data isn't usually shared in these DEI claims.
I've worked in purchasing and contracts and most of the vet owned businesses are majority owned by white guys. To me, no harm no foul - they're the majority of the pool. As for total numbers, number of contracts and their dollar amounts, the majority of them are held by companies that are big public corps (Sodexo for example for food and custodial services). The rest of the contracts we're awarded to corps and firms that are owned by white guys. Sometimes I wish these conversations took the actual data, when it's available, into the dialogue.
Actually, I chose the FAA scenario because of their past DEI practices. Top graduates and top tiered applicants were removed from hiring pools because they were not the correct ethnicity. Were the different ethnicities qualified for the position? Perhaps. but were they most qualified and best persons that could perform that job the the highest standards? No. https://mslegal.org/2019/11/biographical-questions-forced-top-atc-candidates-out-of-faa-hiring-pool/ I can post several articles, interviews and investigative journalism about what happened to the FAA under Obama. How they instituted new biographical testing standards. Class Action lawsuits, etc...
Give a bureaucracy the chance to favor groups they like and they’ll maximize their power. The examples you provide offer benefits based on subjective criteria, excluding military vet status, which is obviously provable.
I'll be honest, I don't understand your comment in relation to mine. All groups, from a hiking club to a government agency, give preferences to characteristics they like or need. And fyi - an overwhelming majority of disabilities are provable.
Unfortunately, not everyone knows what Democrats mean when they say "equity". They have been able to disguise its true intent under benign pretenses.
Equality means equal treatment, unbiased competition and impartially judged outcomes. Equity means equal outcomes, achieved if necessary by unequal treatment, biased competition and preferential judging. on the one camp, are those who agree that racial discrimination is morally wrong and support equal treatment under the law regardless of race and skin color. The other camp support "racial equity" and advocate treating people differently and preferentially based on their race and skin color.
I appreciate the breakdown.
Glenn Loury for President
Excellent discussion!! Your cultural history and experiences are yours to continue to cherish!
Unfortunately the underclass will continue if our public education system continues on its current path.
Glenn/John- if it’s any consolation you have made many ‘friends’ over the years with your efforts.
From a fellow Chicagoan, (west side though)!!
I hope you will take on the need for K-12 education that works for all kids. We know that black kids who fail in public schools can succeed in schools that inspire them.
what about failing white kids? White kids perform 50% proficiency at reading grade level. That is a failing grade. You say education that works for all kids... but then single out black kids performance.
I singled out black kids because my reply was to two wonderful black men and I share their concern about the education of black kids.
But I agree that our public schools perform poorly for all kids. I believe permitting parents to choose the best alternative for their children is a key factor in getting kids into schools that are attuned to each child’s learning needs. Boy do we need that.