My residency in Wisconsin provides no special insight about the Kenosha events, except knowledge of a few reporters who have done a more accurate and meaningful analysis. The best that I’ve read is by Dan O’Donnell, an author and WISN (Milwaukee) radio talk-show host: https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/08/the-lies-that-burned-kenosha/
O’Donnell notes what I heard Gov. Evers say contemporaneously before the violence began: “While we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.” Evers bias against the police was strident and explicit.
O’Donnell quotes Lt. Gov. Mandela Barns, the state’s highest ranking African-American: “This was not an accident. This wasn’t bad police work. This felt like some sort of vendetta being taken out on a member of our community. The officer’s deadly actions attempted to take a person’s life in broad daylight.”
Evers failed to deploy the National Guard after the first night of violence. His slow response reflected a “Portland tolerance” for riots by the mob. Gov. Evers also previously had failed to deploy the National Guard when the Wisconsin Capitol Building had come under assault in June as “progressive” forces removed the statue of Hans Christian Heg, a Union soldier and abolitionist who died in the Civil War. https://wkow.com/2020/06/24/protesters-pull-down-forward-statue-outside-state-capitol/
Mr. Roscoe’s summary about Kenosha should have alerted readers to Evers previous failures to preserve public safety, though his conclusion is beyond dispute: “We live in an age when narratives, not facts, drive public opinion, public policy, and sometimes social unrest. We are truly stuck on stupid as a people.”
The accuracy of Mr. Roscoe’s conclusion has again been affirmed by events which arose this weekend after a firestorm of reactions surfaced from a Tweet by the Washington Post over the decision by a Wisconsin school board to charge some students for school lunches. For those with a passion for details, I link Dan O’Donnell’s radio show from this morning (Aug 30). https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the-dan-odonnell-show-27550539/episode/the-truth-about-the-waukesha-school-86379944/
To any Sociologists, Anthropologists, Psychologists, Historians, Biologists & Economists, Please help.
Lets put aside the Animal Kingdom & Hunter/Gathers for now (there are natural "rules" & the "you have what I want and I will steal or kill to get it"). When humans settled into agricultural groups didn't it become quickly apparent that some "laws" needed to adopted for the group to thrive? At a certain size, did these groups all become hierarchical? At some point in population size, do the natural laws noted above come into play? Were religions developed to help enact & codify those "laws" by bringing "blame", "shame" and "forgiveness" into it? Don't all religions (except Nihilism) have basically similar tenets for managing a population? Is the too much "life", read population, as too much of anything devalues it? Was there always an issue of "identities" or is that a manifestation of the (not-so) Dark Ages, the Renaissance & Discovery of the New World, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution? What about in places that didn't really experience any of them or had a different timeline? We all know that the speed of change is accelerating (Fibocacci rate?), are there any decelerators? I feel there a Dystopia in our future (won't be around) or the China (as of the past few weeks, [Socialized Capitalism or Capitalized Socialism?]) Model. I'm sure there a lot of various opinions, but I learn much from all the input.
P.S. I also thoroughly enjoyed both of Clifton Roscoe's letters and am happy he has the time & inclination to write them. Maybe he should be a guest?
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Mesdames and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. ALL CAPS are ITALICS. :)
TYTY (thank You) yet again, M. Loury. As You may know, I’m 66, white, male, divorced, smoker. The very dregs of society at this moment in time. I agree with ALL the commenters, ESPECIALLY M. June M. Cutright.
I’ve largely held that the Millennials and Gen-Zers are a bunch-a pampered, narcissistic, kids who’re never gonna grow up.
I read the essay in The Federalist by M. Evita Duffy and regained hope. Recommend to all.
I just finished reading “Cynical Theories.” It’s a somewhat academic book. But what a lotta people don’t recognize is what “We the People” are up against. The BLM-1619 Project-CRT MACHINE. To praise and somewhat extend what M. Duffy “said:”
The CRT MACHINE’s ideology is fundamentally based on the idea that facts aren’t important. Knowledge derived from the scientific method, WHICH PUT A MAN ON THE MOON, is “racist.” I’m fairly sure there were Blacks in the Apollo Program, but probably not 13%. That’s why all scientific facts, and any facts at all, are now KNOWN to be racist and to be put down.
The CRT MACHINE’s fundamental METHOD says discourse is reality, not facts. That’s why they make SURE that the only narrative that’s ALLOWED is the one that confirms their view that American Democracy is “whiteness” and needs to be torn down.
Keeping in mind that the majority of Black Racists are Caucasian, the only thing I know to do is find like-minded people, of all colors, genders, and members of HUMANITY, and resist The CRT MACHINE.
more than one of the men who've been shot while resisting arrest were being arrested for assaulting women. this often goes unmentioned or passes w/out much scrutiny. i think of duante wright who tried to strangle a woman in his house for $800 -+ threatened to shoot her. you don't attempt to murder someone w your hands w/out a lot of violence behind you +a terrible anger problem, +in these cases a general disregard for the safety of women, +in blake's case their children. wtf. its not merely a case of man vs police. its the crimes that were committed before the police arrived.
there's been a reluctance in the black community to sign onto feminist theory/women's rights/children's rights +practice w much gusto +this seems just the place to turn: to recognize that those smaller, weaker are also of value. that children need support, nurturing, +parenting. but like good school performance is labeled as: acting white, feminist practice has also often been relegated to white women. seems to be a disconnect here. we've spent some time +much energy on groups like: my bros keeper, etc to try to foster a sense of value in young men but do we do much for young women/girls? they are the ones getting pregnant w the laquan mcdonalds at very young ages +i've long been annoyed that we arent turning our attention to young girls who often seek power/ value/whatever by engaging w young men +having babies to demonstrate their attachment to these men in order to move up on the social ladder when we know in the wider world that having babies young does not move us or anyone up the social ladder.
my god i've hollered til i'm blue for 30yrs but hear: we have to save the men. dont we need to save the young women who are having all the children, getting abused by the men, yada yada yada +not only dont have access to birth control but also could be taught thru their own agency they too can mine power +not be sentenced to such difficult lives by trying to gain clout attaching themselves to the ... not the best ppl.
if there's a pattern isnt it time we discuss the crimes committed before the police show up?
I am wondering why there is no mention of candidate Biden’s visiting Jacob Blake’s family and weighing in on the racial injustice inherent in the case. Seems like a glaring omission in such a thoroughly researched piece.
Before I forget, let me say I have truly enjoyed Mr. Roscoe's two letters. Maybe "enjoy" is the wrong word, but you know what I mean. They were a breath of fresh air, and I'll keep reading them as long as they keep coming.
We discussed Blake because the media told us to. It was an Important National Story because the media told us it was.
Earlier this year, a 19-year-old black male with intent to harm slammed into a small 84-year-old Asian man in San Francisco. Who knows why? Thought it would be fun, I guess. The old Asian man died.
A week ago the New York Times wrote a piece on the incident: "Why Was Vicha Ratanapakdee Killed?" Finally, an open discussion of Black on Asian violence, right? Uh, no.
Second sentence, "An uneasiness had hung over her ever since a mob descended on the Capitol early that month..." (Insurrection? Check!) Then there was mention of Trump's "racist language." And "violence across the country that grew in number amid Mr. Trump's comments." (Trump? Check!)
In this New York Times examination of a young black man killing an old Asian man, here are some phrases:
"beaten to death by two white men in Detroit in 1982"
"a white gunman"
"a white gunman" (no, that's not a typo -- they used the same phrase twice
"white-supremacist websites"
"punched by a white man"
And this: "(The data, though incomplete, show that hate crimes against Asian Americans were more likely to be committed by nonwhite offenders than those against Hispanics or African Americans. But the overwhelming majority of hate-crime perpetrators are white.)" [In other words, 70 percent of the population was amazingly able to out-hate 13 percent of the population. Although not when it comes to Asians, the purported topic of this piece.]
In the New York Times piece, there's also discussion of Asian violence against blacks. One incident from 1991, the next in 2014. Twice in 30 years? Why, those dastardly Asians!
It was a typical narrative-driven piece that was more of an apologia than it was an examination of the death of Ratanapakdee. Very disappointing, but certainly representative of today's media.
The tie-in is that the media chooses what will be covered (Blake) and what won't (Ratanapakdee). We talk about spin and narrative a lot, but very seldom about the "move along, nothing to see here" decisions of the media.
The moral of this story and the George Floyd story and many others is: "shit happens when you screw with the police". The data shows that it doesn't happen any more frequently if you are black or white or whatever color you choose.
On August 30, 1999, my cousin Gary Busch was shot and killed by NY City police. He was a 31-year-old Hasidic Jew, seriously schizophrenic and off his meds. Police were called by neighbors, reporting that he was creating a disturbance, and six officers responded. Gary was wielding a hammer, on which he had written the Hebrew name of God, and which he used as a religious object. Reports are not entirely consistent on what happened, but the official version is that Gary disobeyed police orders and swung the hammer around, striking an officer on the arm. Pepper spray failed to subdue him. He continued to threaten officers with the hammer and was shot twelve times. A Brooklyn grand jury declined to indict any of the officers. A civil suit found the city not liable, but the verdict was later overturned on concerns with the officer’s testimony, after which the family chose not to pursue another trial. The story made local news for a little while, but has otherwise been forgotten. I do not want to create some sort of scorecard comparison of police/suspect responsibility between Gary and Jacob, but I do think there are some significant parallels. I am tempted to say that Gary is forgotten because he was not Black, but causality in human affairs is very difficult to establish.
It's not stuck on stupid. I just think part of black identity is holding a grudge, a vendetta against people of authority, especially cops. There is a history between blacks and cops that goes back over a century, and certain groups of people exploit that history for political gain. It's a shame, but it is the reality we live in.
I grew up in the inner city surrounded by young males who did not respect authority, meaning looking down on teachers (mostly whites) and cops in general. It was a badge of honor to feel this vendetta against them. It gave us some kind of cool bond or sense of group identity. And then you feel even better when you see how this type of attitude is glorified through media as authentic black identity.
And then I left the inner city and grew up a little bit!!!!
It will always be hard to fight against the negative narrative of blacks vs cops since there is too much history behind it.
I hate to be so hard-hearted, but I have no sympathy for Jacob Blake at all. If you assault the cops with a knife, of course you're going to get shot!
An important detail was elided here. Immediately prior to the policeman opening fire, Blake went to his car, opened the door, and reached inside. In America, the police HAVE TO assume that he's reaching for a gun. It's the equivalent of reaching for one's glove compartment. The police had no choice but to open fire, and Jacob Blake bears full responsibility for what happened to him.
I don't know if I will ever fully comprehend how people can tow a party line (not just political party) so rigidly as to willfully ignore facts about a given situation. To prop Jacob Blake up as anything other than man on the wrong path in life who's decisions cost him his mobility is asinine.
My residency in Wisconsin provides no special insight about the Kenosha events, except knowledge of a few reporters who have done a more accurate and meaningful analysis. The best that I’ve read is by Dan O’Donnell, an author and WISN (Milwaukee) radio talk-show host: https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/08/the-lies-that-burned-kenosha/
O’Donnell notes what I heard Gov. Evers say contemporaneously before the violence began: “While we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.” Evers bias against the police was strident and explicit.
O’Donnell quotes Lt. Gov. Mandela Barns, the state’s highest ranking African-American: “This was not an accident. This wasn’t bad police work. This felt like some sort of vendetta being taken out on a member of our community. The officer’s deadly actions attempted to take a person’s life in broad daylight.”
Evers failed to deploy the National Guard after the first night of violence. His slow response reflected a “Portland tolerance” for riots by the mob. Gov. Evers also previously had failed to deploy the National Guard when the Wisconsin Capitol Building had come under assault in June as “progressive” forces removed the statue of Hans Christian Heg, a Union soldier and abolitionist who died in the Civil War. https://wkow.com/2020/06/24/protesters-pull-down-forward-statue-outside-state-capitol/
Mr. Roscoe’s summary about Kenosha should have alerted readers to Evers previous failures to preserve public safety, though his conclusion is beyond dispute: “We live in an age when narratives, not facts, drive public opinion, public policy, and sometimes social unrest. We are truly stuck on stupid as a people.”
The accuracy of Mr. Roscoe’s conclusion has again been affirmed by events which arose this weekend after a firestorm of reactions surfaced from a Tweet by the Washington Post over the decision by a Wisconsin school board to charge some students for school lunches. For those with a passion for details, I link Dan O’Donnell’s radio show from this morning (Aug 30). https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the-dan-odonnell-show-27550539/episode/the-truth-about-the-waukesha-school-86379944/
To any Sociologists, Anthropologists, Psychologists, Historians, Biologists & Economists, Please help.
Lets put aside the Animal Kingdom & Hunter/Gathers for now (there are natural "rules" & the "you have what I want and I will steal or kill to get it"). When humans settled into agricultural groups didn't it become quickly apparent that some "laws" needed to adopted for the group to thrive? At a certain size, did these groups all become hierarchical? At some point in population size, do the natural laws noted above come into play? Were religions developed to help enact & codify those "laws" by bringing "blame", "shame" and "forgiveness" into it? Don't all religions (except Nihilism) have basically similar tenets for managing a population? Is the too much "life", read population, as too much of anything devalues it? Was there always an issue of "identities" or is that a manifestation of the (not-so) Dark Ages, the Renaissance & Discovery of the New World, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution? What about in places that didn't really experience any of them or had a different timeline? We all know that the speed of change is accelerating (Fibocacci rate?), are there any decelerators? I feel there a Dystopia in our future (won't be around) or the China (as of the past few weeks, [Socialized Capitalism or Capitalized Socialism?]) Model. I'm sure there a lot of various opinions, but I learn much from all the input.
P.S. I also thoroughly enjoyed both of Clifton Roscoe's letters and am happy he has the time & inclination to write them. Maybe he should be a guest?
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Mesdames and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. ALL CAPS are ITALICS. :)
TYTY (thank You) yet again, M. Loury. As You may know, I’m 66, white, male, divorced, smoker. The very dregs of society at this moment in time. I agree with ALL the commenters, ESPECIALLY M. June M. Cutright.
I’ve largely held that the Millennials and Gen-Zers are a bunch-a pampered, narcissistic, kids who’re never gonna grow up.
I read the essay in The Federalist by M. Evita Duffy and regained hope. Recommend to all.
I just finished reading “Cynical Theories.” It’s a somewhat academic book. But what a lotta people don’t recognize is what “We the People” are up against. The BLM-1619 Project-CRT MACHINE. To praise and somewhat extend what M. Duffy “said:”
The CRT MACHINE’s ideology is fundamentally based on the idea that facts aren’t important. Knowledge derived from the scientific method, WHICH PUT A MAN ON THE MOON, is “racist.” I’m fairly sure there were Blacks in the Apollo Program, but probably not 13%. That’s why all scientific facts, and any facts at all, are now KNOWN to be racist and to be put down.
The CRT MACHINE’s fundamental METHOD says discourse is reality, not facts. That’s why they make SURE that the only narrative that’s ALLOWED is the one that confirms their view that American Democracy is “whiteness” and needs to be torn down.
Keeping in mind that the majority of Black Racists are Caucasian, the only thing I know to do is find like-minded people, of all colors, genders, and members of HUMANITY, and resist The CRT MACHINE.
more than one of the men who've been shot while resisting arrest were being arrested for assaulting women. this often goes unmentioned or passes w/out much scrutiny. i think of duante wright who tried to strangle a woman in his house for $800 -+ threatened to shoot her. you don't attempt to murder someone w your hands w/out a lot of violence behind you +a terrible anger problem, +in these cases a general disregard for the safety of women, +in blake's case their children. wtf. its not merely a case of man vs police. its the crimes that were committed before the police arrived.
there's been a reluctance in the black community to sign onto feminist theory/women's rights/children's rights +practice w much gusto +this seems just the place to turn: to recognize that those smaller, weaker are also of value. that children need support, nurturing, +parenting. but like good school performance is labeled as: acting white, feminist practice has also often been relegated to white women. seems to be a disconnect here. we've spent some time +much energy on groups like: my bros keeper, etc to try to foster a sense of value in young men but do we do much for young women/girls? they are the ones getting pregnant w the laquan mcdonalds at very young ages +i've long been annoyed that we arent turning our attention to young girls who often seek power/ value/whatever by engaging w young men +having babies to demonstrate their attachment to these men in order to move up on the social ladder when we know in the wider world that having babies young does not move us or anyone up the social ladder.
my god i've hollered til i'm blue for 30yrs but hear: we have to save the men. dont we need to save the young women who are having all the children, getting abused by the men, yada yada yada +not only dont have access to birth control but also could be taught thru their own agency they too can mine power +not be sentenced to such difficult lives by trying to gain clout attaching themselves to the ... not the best ppl.
if there's a pattern isnt it time we discuss the crimes committed before the police show up?
I am wondering why there is no mention of candidate Biden’s visiting Jacob Blake’s family and weighing in on the racial injustice inherent in the case. Seems like a glaring omission in such a thoroughly researched piece.
Before I forget, let me say I have truly enjoyed Mr. Roscoe's two letters. Maybe "enjoy" is the wrong word, but you know what I mean. They were a breath of fresh air, and I'll keep reading them as long as they keep coming.
We discussed Blake because the media told us to. It was an Important National Story because the media told us it was.
Earlier this year, a 19-year-old black male with intent to harm slammed into a small 84-year-old Asian man in San Francisco. Who knows why? Thought it would be fun, I guess. The old Asian man died.
A week ago the New York Times wrote a piece on the incident: "Why Was Vicha Ratanapakdee Killed?" Finally, an open discussion of Black on Asian violence, right? Uh, no.
Second sentence, "An uneasiness had hung over her ever since a mob descended on the Capitol early that month..." (Insurrection? Check!) Then there was mention of Trump's "racist language." And "violence across the country that grew in number amid Mr. Trump's comments." (Trump? Check!)
In this New York Times examination of a young black man killing an old Asian man, here are some phrases:
"beaten to death by two white men in Detroit in 1982"
"a white gunman"
"a white gunman" (no, that's not a typo -- they used the same phrase twice
"white-supremacist websites"
"punched by a white man"
And this: "(The data, though incomplete, show that hate crimes against Asian Americans were more likely to be committed by nonwhite offenders than those against Hispanics or African Americans. But the overwhelming majority of hate-crime perpetrators are white.)" [In other words, 70 percent of the population was amazingly able to out-hate 13 percent of the population. Although not when it comes to Asians, the purported topic of this piece.]
In the New York Times piece, there's also discussion of Asian violence against blacks. One incident from 1991, the next in 2014. Twice in 30 years? Why, those dastardly Asians!
It was a typical narrative-driven piece that was more of an apologia than it was an examination of the death of Ratanapakdee. Very disappointing, but certainly representative of today's media.
The tie-in is that the media chooses what will be covered (Blake) and what won't (Ratanapakdee). We talk about spin and narrative a lot, but very seldom about the "move along, nothing to see here" decisions of the media.
I think the United States should form a band and title their debut album Stuck On Stupid.
The moral of this story and the George Floyd story and many others is: "shit happens when you screw with the police". The data shows that it doesn't happen any more frequently if you are black or white or whatever color you choose.
On August 30, 1999, my cousin Gary Busch was shot and killed by NY City police. He was a 31-year-old Hasidic Jew, seriously schizophrenic and off his meds. Police were called by neighbors, reporting that he was creating a disturbance, and six officers responded. Gary was wielding a hammer, on which he had written the Hebrew name of God, and which he used as a religious object. Reports are not entirely consistent on what happened, but the official version is that Gary disobeyed police orders and swung the hammer around, striking an officer on the arm. Pepper spray failed to subdue him. He continued to threaten officers with the hammer and was shot twelve times. A Brooklyn grand jury declined to indict any of the officers. A civil suit found the city not liable, but the verdict was later overturned on concerns with the officer’s testimony, after which the family chose not to pursue another trial. The story made local news for a little while, but has otherwise been forgotten. I do not want to create some sort of scorecard comparison of police/suspect responsibility between Gary and Jacob, but I do think there are some significant parallels. I am tempted to say that Gary is forgotten because he was not Black, but causality in human affairs is very difficult to establish.
The parallels to the Michael Brown case, specifically the ignorance of fact and the embrace of a useful narrative, are amazing. . . and sad.
It's not stuck on stupid. I just think part of black identity is holding a grudge, a vendetta against people of authority, especially cops. There is a history between blacks and cops that goes back over a century, and certain groups of people exploit that history for political gain. It's a shame, but it is the reality we live in.
I grew up in the inner city surrounded by young males who did not respect authority, meaning looking down on teachers (mostly whites) and cops in general. It was a badge of honor to feel this vendetta against them. It gave us some kind of cool bond or sense of group identity. And then you feel even better when you see how this type of attitude is glorified through media as authentic black identity.
And then I left the inner city and grew up a little bit!!!!
It will always be hard to fight against the negative narrative of blacks vs cops since there is too much history behind it.
I hate to be so hard-hearted, but I have no sympathy for Jacob Blake at all. If you assault the cops with a knife, of course you're going to get shot!
An important detail was elided here. Immediately prior to the policeman opening fire, Blake went to his car, opened the door, and reached inside. In America, the police HAVE TO assume that he's reaching for a gun. It's the equivalent of reaching for one's glove compartment. The police had no choice but to open fire, and Jacob Blake bears full responsibility for what happened to him.
I don't know if I will ever fully comprehend how people can tow a party line (not just political party) so rigidly as to willfully ignore facts about a given situation. To prop Jacob Blake up as anything other than man on the wrong path in life who's decisions cost him his mobility is asinine.
"We are truly stuck on stupid as a people."