Today, I’ve got a special treat for TGS fans: my first ever recorded conversation with John McWhorter, which occurred on (brace yourselves) November 7, 2007.
Wow, this is incredible. It's interesting in itself, and also as history. I wonder what would come out of this if you tried a Mystery Science Theater 3000 model, and made them do a current commentary on top of their historical discussion.
What a treat! I always wondered how y’all got started so long ago. I thought John was WAY too dismissive of the awesome work of William Julius Wilson. If you wish to ignore the impact of deindustrialization of inner cities on undereducated blacks, you should also be willing to ignore the impact of the war in drugs on the underclass. And neither should be ignored and neither is an “excuse” for cultural issues.
I am now halfway through reading The Bonfire of the Vanities. I had always heard of that title but knew nothing about it until presently, and last night it struck me just how profoundly the book relates to John and Glenn's work, I am so curious if either of them have read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonfire_of_the_Vanities Especially considering that this novel was released in 1987 (during my first year in college, ha!) it's kinda striking to witness pretty much the exact same aspects of the race conversation examined then as are here being examined now, and without all that much progress perhaps in the thirty-four years since, it seems to me.
I think they've both mentioned the book and Tom Wolfe's work generally in past dialogues, so you're on to something. I never got very far with the Bonfire, maybe I'll take another swing at it.
My eyebrows went up at around the 49:00 mark when both John and Glenn observed that people are getting a little weary of the whole race conversation. I recall another early exchange they had on Bloggingheads where Glenn observed that his son and his cohort seem to be wearing their quote-unquote race "very lightly." Seven or so years on from this conversation (and the addition of some social media platforms) and it's a different world. This was very interesting, as always.
I don't think that I like 2007 Glenn. When did you learn humility? I think I am starting to understand why you are struggling to write your memoire. I hope you will tell us who is the real Glenn Loury and what he really believes and why.
So John McWhorter continues to do work in linguistics and writes about Black English. Did you follow the linguistics of the breakup of former Yugoslavia? The three main constituent groups -Serbs, Bosnians, and Croats used to speak essentially the same language. As is became obvious that a breakup was inevitable public intellectuals and media people scrambled to increase linguistic differences: The Serbian nationalists studied the old ways and stories of Serbian peasantry in olden days (Serbian ethnographer Vuk Karadjic had compiled this info during the nineteenth century. The Bosnians resurrected words and expression from Ottoman times. I never heard "Alahu imanem" (God willing) when Tito was alive but now every other sentence seemed to end with that expression. The Croats systematically removed 'international' words and created completely new words ("kvaliteta" (quality) was replaced by "kakvocha" which can't be translated idiomatically because it has a sense of heideggerian "Das Ding an sich."
So when I hear Black English I can't help thinking of it as a separatist agenda.
I'll throw in some body language: When I came here in 1962 people congratulated one another with handshakes. A few years later, POC athletes began to 'high five' one another. Then high fives were incorporated by all athletes. So POC athletes changed to fist bumps, chest bumps, etc. If you watched the Tokyo Olympics you saw Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indonesian high-fiving one another. If my thesis is right then if Chinese, Japanese, etc incorporate fist bumps and chest bumps then American POCs will switch to something else.
I admire and appreciate the intellectual jousting model you both indulge in with your discussions. Both of you are superb at posing the arguments, to the extent they are actual arguments, that seek to counter your positions and to do so as honestly and unflinchingly as you do. Really good to join you on memory lane:).
Last summer, I made an entire archive on my iPod of Glenn and John dating back to this first conversation. I could never get tired of listening these men. It's like sitting in a seminar.
I grew up in the inner city, but could never understand why black kids insulted each other while disagreeing with one other on anything. Now black adults do it no matter what their status is in politics, entertainment, business and academia. How embarrassing!!!!
It is a breath of fresh air to see two black academics like these men engage and disagree sometimes, but set a good precedence for all of us. Especially during these dramatic times!!!
Thank you for posting this, Glenn. The testicles appear to have descended further in the last 14 years! I love hearing your more youthful voice, but there is no substitute for the authoritative, road-worn growl you've got now. John's hasn't changed a bit. It's a great talk and you can really feel the affinity for each other even then, regardless of your former spot on the political spectrum. I will always admire both your respective sharpness, cogency and turns of phrase, from all of which I learn constantly. I only wish I knew about you and John back then.
Wow, this is incredible. It's interesting in itself, and also as history. I wonder what would come out of this if you tried a Mystery Science Theater 3000 model, and made them do a current commentary on top of their historical discussion.
What a treat! I always wondered how y’all got started so long ago. I thought John was WAY too dismissive of the awesome work of William Julius Wilson. If you wish to ignore the impact of deindustrialization of inner cities on undereducated blacks, you should also be willing to ignore the impact of the war in drugs on the underclass. And neither should be ignored and neither is an “excuse” for cultural issues.
I am now halfway through reading The Bonfire of the Vanities. I had always heard of that title but knew nothing about it until presently, and last night it struck me just how profoundly the book relates to John and Glenn's work, I am so curious if either of them have read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonfire_of_the_Vanities Especially considering that this novel was released in 1987 (during my first year in college, ha!) it's kinda striking to witness pretty much the exact same aspects of the race conversation examined then as are here being examined now, and without all that much progress perhaps in the thirty-four years since, it seems to me.
I think they've both mentioned the book and Tom Wolfe's work generally in past dialogues, so you're on to something. I never got very far with the Bonfire, maybe I'll take another swing at it.
My eyebrows went up at around the 49:00 mark when both John and Glenn observed that people are getting a little weary of the whole race conversation. I recall another early exchange they had on Bloggingheads where Glenn observed that his son and his cohort seem to be wearing their quote-unquote race "very lightly." Seven or so years on from this conversation (and the addition of some social media platforms) and it's a different world. This was very interesting, as always.
I had exactly the same reaction. It's hard to believe that this conversation took place "only" ~14 years ago.
I don't think that I like 2007 Glenn. When did you learn humility? I think I am starting to understand why you are struggling to write your memoire. I hope you will tell us who is the real Glenn Loury and what he really believes and why.
It's impressive that the first conversation you guys recorded was as intellectually inspiring as the ones you have now.
Dr Loury, have your views on the culture in academia shifted at all since this conversation? Is it still a force for good?
So John McWhorter continues to do work in linguistics and writes about Black English. Did you follow the linguistics of the breakup of former Yugoslavia? The three main constituent groups -Serbs, Bosnians, and Croats used to speak essentially the same language. As is became obvious that a breakup was inevitable public intellectuals and media people scrambled to increase linguistic differences: The Serbian nationalists studied the old ways and stories of Serbian peasantry in olden days (Serbian ethnographer Vuk Karadjic had compiled this info during the nineteenth century. The Bosnians resurrected words and expression from Ottoman times. I never heard "Alahu imanem" (God willing) when Tito was alive but now every other sentence seemed to end with that expression. The Croats systematically removed 'international' words and created completely new words ("kvaliteta" (quality) was replaced by "kakvocha" which can't be translated idiomatically because it has a sense of heideggerian "Das Ding an sich."
So when I hear Black English I can't help thinking of it as a separatist agenda.
I'll throw in some body language: When I came here in 1962 people congratulated one another with handshakes. A few years later, POC athletes began to 'high five' one another. Then high fives were incorporated by all athletes. So POC athletes changed to fist bumps, chest bumps, etc. If you watched the Tokyo Olympics you saw Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indonesian high-fiving one another. If my thesis is right then if Chinese, Japanese, etc incorporate fist bumps and chest bumps then American POCs will switch to something else.
Any thoughts?
I'm waiting for the french kissing congratulations... probably a long long wait after covid...
Does this mean that John's new deal with the NYTimes precludes his doing The Glenn Show?
Thought you John and Glenn might appreciate this.
The title of the talk is, strange, given her previous outpourings. It almost sounds like Johns new book:
"..how well-meaning white progressives cause harm to people of colour."
Robin diAngelo
https://howtoacademy.us7.list-manage.com/track/click?u=f87ff9f2b37acaa64ab36114a&id=ce6d2b77fd&e=217d184887
I admire and appreciate the intellectual jousting model you both indulge in with your discussions. Both of you are superb at posing the arguments, to the extent they are actual arguments, that seek to counter your positions and to do so as honestly and unflinchingly as you do. Really good to join you on memory lane:).
Last summer, I made an entire archive on my iPod of Glenn and John dating back to this first conversation. I could never get tired of listening these men. It's like sitting in a seminar.
I grew up in the inner city, but could never understand why black kids insulted each other while disagreeing with one other on anything. Now black adults do it no matter what their status is in politics, entertainment, business and academia. How embarrassing!!!!
It is a breath of fresh air to see two black academics like these men engage and disagree sometimes, but set a good precedence for all of us. Especially during these dramatic times!!!
Thank you for posting this, Glenn. The testicles appear to have descended further in the last 14 years! I love hearing your more youthful voice, but there is no substitute for the authoritative, road-worn growl you've got now. John's hasn't changed a bit. It's a great talk and you can really feel the affinity for each other even then, regardless of your former spot on the political spectrum. I will always admire both your respective sharpness, cogency and turns of phrase, from all of which I learn constantly. I only wish I knew about you and John back then.
I'm loving this already. (Even tho' y'all cheatin' us out of new episode. But we good =))
These guys give us more for our money with their type of conversations. So I think we're good!!!