JasonT, this from Brendan O'Neill seems to me to sum up what we are up against and what it comes down to.
"So let me get this right. If Israel bombs Hamas targets in Gaza, it is recklessly endangering civilian life. But if it gives civilians fair warning to move away from certain areas, it is engaging in ethnic cleansing. If it drops bomb…
JasonT, this from Brendan O'Neill seems to me to sum up what we are up against and what it comes down to.
"So let me get this right. If Israel bombs Hamas targets in Gaza, it is recklessly endangering civilian life. But if it gives civilians fair warning to move away from certain areas, it is engaging in ethnic cleansing. If it drops bombs in built-up suburbs, it is committing a war crime. But if it advises civilians to leave those built-up suburbs before the bombs come, it is also committing a war crime. If it attacks northern Gaza, that’s genocide. Yet when it tells the civilians of northern Gaza to leave first, that’s ‘forced transfer’, which is to say: genocide. Everything Israel does is a war crime. Everything. Killing civilians – war crime. Trying not to kill civilians – war crime. Bombing populated areas – war crime. Giving a population time to leave before dropping bombs – war crime. "
So, did you see that the IDF subsequently bombed the areas that Palestinian civilians were told to move to? Did you see all the children, both the killed and the survivors? If Gaza authorities are to believed, and you may not, as of today some 3000 children have been killed in Gaza. Do you really think this is a good thing for Israel’s long term prospects?
I watched an interview with a boy, clearly traumatized, whose next door neighbor’s house was leveled. The whole family gone. The boy said he missed his friend who lived there, because they played together every day. Do you think this boy is going to grow up to want to make peace with Israel? I suspect no more than the survivors of the 10/7 terror attacks want to make peace with Palestinians.
First, no. I do not believe the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers. Why on earth would I, or anyone.? These are the assertions of a terrorist organization that is notorious for lying and exaggerating. They reported the explosion in the parking lot next to that hospital as caused by Israel and as taking 500 lives. It was not caused by Israel, and the latest independent numbers I have seen are that 10-50 may have died. I would discount your 3,000 figure by at least that factor.
As for that boy, he will grow up to want war with Israel not because of this, but because his education, partly supported via the UN, etc., involves constant, vile antisemitic nonsense and such nice activities as dressing up as a suicide bomber. A sick culture is likely to produce him as a future terrorist, if anything does. Otherwise, he may well end up like the vast majority of Germans and Japanese, thankful that his side lost, and that a saner leadership arose in its place.
And really, Amy, if the IDF bombed areas from which civilians were told to move, but some of whom did not, and some died, whose responsibility is that? Hamas started this war, and Hamas prevents those people from leaving. This is a war crime, on Hamas, not Israel. They are using their own people as shields in the HOPE that Israeli attacks will inadvertently kill them. And in the assumption that our corrupted media will accept their spin on it all. The blood is entirely on Hamas' hands. Every single death is on their hands. Had they not done Oct, 7, NO ONE in Gaza would be dying from Israel's totally justified defense.
No, you misunderstood, the IDF bombed the areas the Palestinian civilians were told to move *to*.
I can tell that you are 100% in the pro-Israel camp. Hopefully you recognize the fire of your convictions is the same as those who support Palestine. I just feel sadness for suffering, especially the future suffering that all this current conviction will bring about.
Told to move to, told to move from, makes no difference. Their deaths are the fault of Hamas.
I also do not agree at all that any "fire" of my convictions is the same as for those who support the Palestinians, if by that you mean any whose support entails acceptance, even celebration, of the chosen and intended murder of innocents simply because of their tribe. Israel does everything it can to avoid killing innocents, Hamas does everything it can to target them and ensure Israel will hit them. I see absolutely no equivalence between these two. As has been said by others, if the Palestinians disarmed totally tomorrow there would be peace, whereas if Israel disarmed tomorrow there would be no Jews.
Perhaps that is true, perhaps that is a rationalization.
I believe almost all people just want to live their lives. The fact that so many people are willing to sign away their futures indicates (ie the nihilistic Islamist terrorists) to me that they feel like they don’t actually have futures. I’m just not sure that if life was substantially better for Palestinians that they would still be so angry. Certainly things can’t and won’t change over night. Most of the Israelis I have met have been mostly secular and most of the Palestinians I have met have been mostly secular, so I just can’t see the animosity being primarily about religion.
Israel has powerful enemies and fickle friends. They do not have the luxury of independent action. Eventually their enemies will win unless Israel destroys them.
JasonT, this from Brendan O'Neill seems to me to sum up what we are up against and what it comes down to.
"So let me get this right. If Israel bombs Hamas targets in Gaza, it is recklessly endangering civilian life. But if it gives civilians fair warning to move away from certain areas, it is engaging in ethnic cleansing. If it drops bombs in built-up suburbs, it is committing a war crime. But if it advises civilians to leave those built-up suburbs before the bombs come, it is also committing a war crime. If it attacks northern Gaza, that’s genocide. Yet when it tells the civilians of northern Gaza to leave first, that’s ‘forced transfer’, which is to say: genocide. Everything Israel does is a war crime. Everything. Killing civilians – war crime. Trying not to kill civilians – war crime. Bombing populated areas – war crime. Giving a population time to leave before dropping bombs – war crime. "
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/16/why-wont-the-jews-just-let-themselves-be-killed/
To which Bob Dylan in Neighborhood Bully gets the last word:
"Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully."
So, did you see that the IDF subsequently bombed the areas that Palestinian civilians were told to move to? Did you see all the children, both the killed and the survivors? If Gaza authorities are to believed, and you may not, as of today some 3000 children have been killed in Gaza. Do you really think this is a good thing for Israel’s long term prospects?
I watched an interview with a boy, clearly traumatized, whose next door neighbor’s house was leveled. The whole family gone. The boy said he missed his friend who lived there, because they played together every day. Do you think this boy is going to grow up to want to make peace with Israel? I suspect no more than the survivors of the 10/7 terror attacks want to make peace with Palestinians.
First, no. I do not believe the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers. Why on earth would I, or anyone.? These are the assertions of a terrorist organization that is notorious for lying and exaggerating. They reported the explosion in the parking lot next to that hospital as caused by Israel and as taking 500 lives. It was not caused by Israel, and the latest independent numbers I have seen are that 10-50 may have died. I would discount your 3,000 figure by at least that factor.
As for that boy, he will grow up to want war with Israel not because of this, but because his education, partly supported via the UN, etc., involves constant, vile antisemitic nonsense and such nice activities as dressing up as a suicide bomber. A sick culture is likely to produce him as a future terrorist, if anything does. Otherwise, he may well end up like the vast majority of Germans and Japanese, thankful that his side lost, and that a saner leadership arose in its place.
And really, Amy, if the IDF bombed areas from which civilians were told to move, but some of whom did not, and some died, whose responsibility is that? Hamas started this war, and Hamas prevents those people from leaving. This is a war crime, on Hamas, not Israel. They are using their own people as shields in the HOPE that Israeli attacks will inadvertently kill them. And in the assumption that our corrupted media will accept their spin on it all. The blood is entirely on Hamas' hands. Every single death is on their hands. Had they not done Oct, 7, NO ONE in Gaza would be dying from Israel's totally justified defense.
No, you misunderstood, the IDF bombed the areas the Palestinian civilians were told to move *to*.
I can tell that you are 100% in the pro-Israel camp. Hopefully you recognize the fire of your convictions is the same as those who support Palestine. I just feel sadness for suffering, especially the future suffering that all this current conviction will bring about.
Told to move to, told to move from, makes no difference. Their deaths are the fault of Hamas.
I also do not agree at all that any "fire" of my convictions is the same as for those who support the Palestinians, if by that you mean any whose support entails acceptance, even celebration, of the chosen and intended murder of innocents simply because of their tribe. Israel does everything it can to avoid killing innocents, Hamas does everything it can to target them and ensure Israel will hit them. I see absolutely no equivalence between these two. As has been said by others, if the Palestinians disarmed totally tomorrow there would be peace, whereas if Israel disarmed tomorrow there would be no Jews.
Perhaps that is true, perhaps that is a rationalization.
I believe almost all people just want to live their lives. The fact that so many people are willing to sign away their futures indicates (ie the nihilistic Islamist terrorists) to me that they feel like they don’t actually have futures. I’m just not sure that if life was substantially better for Palestinians that they would still be so angry. Certainly things can’t and won’t change over night. Most of the Israelis I have met have been mostly secular and most of the Palestinians I have met have been mostly secular, so I just can’t see the animosity being primarily about religion.
Israel has powerful enemies and fickle friends. They do not have the luxury of independent action. Eventually their enemies will win unless Israel destroys them.