Listen now (55 min) | This week, John and I change things up a little bit, both in form and content. For the first half of the show, we welcome “Don Baton.” Don is a professional orchestra conductor and the pseudonymous author of the Substack newsletter The Podium, where he writes about the effects of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives in the classical music world, among other topics. Don is understandably protective of his real identity, so he kept his camera off for this conversation, and we’ve replaced his voice with an automated simulation in post-production.
Time 37:00 where Glen and John discuss the weirdness of Equity remediation. If Equity program had gone through normal and transparent “program proposal process”, it would have been rejected everywhere because each Equity strategy is random. I worry about mental health outcomes of African Americans due to Equity messaging and actions. The equity program does not lend itself to prediction and each new story is independent of every other equity story. If I tried to take it seriously, it would drive me crazy.
Dr Glenn and John I read their books back in college now they've gone digital and better than ever I am blessed to read their words and thoughts and proud to be born in the same country the United States. Gracias a dios.
Story today in the Wall St Journal about hesitancy and reluctance from the US State Dept to initiate DEI initiatives. Call it a lackluster response from US State Dept to implement DEI but I don't care if our diplomats are all White or Black keep us out of war and defend US interests.
At time 19:00, John addresses concept of John Doe “Seeing himself per the racial identity of a role-model conductor” for example. I am a homosexual and I never thought that the professional I desired to emulate needed to be gay. Behavioral scientists have ways of studying this objectively. I suspect the concept was partially true per sex in some work environments where practical concerns are relevant; such as “Is there an area where a female employee can safely and privately change clothes?”, “Is late-hour work-schedule conduce to a woman’s safety needs when getting off work?”, etc. To any PhD psychologists who remain silent during such dubious claims- you do not have necessary leadership skills for management or director positions at present or in future.
As a high school boy, I saw Manny Laureano (trumpeter, black) BANG out a Haydn concerto with the Minnesota Orchestra and Neville Mariner. It was the first time I'd heard classical trumpet played at that level.
It was beautiful and exciting! And part of what was cool was seeing that black dude take the solo role in front of all those other classical musicians, maybe the only black person on stage, and do it very well. At the time it felt like some kind of hopeful cross-over to my young self--I still can't articulate properly how interesting it was at the social level--but I'd guess that Mr. Laureano probably thought it was another day playing music for a living.
This "how many of these, how many of those" world we live in... all you can do is laugh. Take the argument that after a certain core competency, further excellence doesn't matter. That's not completely illogical. Does the difference between the New York Philharmonic and the Binghampton Philharmonic really matter? Does the difference between a local small college baseball team and the New York Yankees matter? If you watch the Yankees-Red Sox or Mudville Tech-Mudville A&M, you're still just watching two teams compete in something that is ultimately meaningless.
Airline pilots and bridge builders, of course, that's another story.
It's all about competition and meritocracy. Those are ingrained parts of humanity. To perform a balancing act for "fairness" goes against human nature. Having the best players reap the best rewards is felt by everyone to be right and just and human. The only reason anyone disputes that is because politicians elevate their own competitions above the competitions of music and sports and life in general.
Great episode. I can’t believe they are getting rid of blind auditions when sexism is still a huge problem for musicians. My sister is a very accomplished musician, and she gets pigeonholed as a “teacher” rather than a performer—and even in the world of teaching, women are seen as teachers of young children. She has developed very talented students, only to have parents switch them to a male teacher because they think it’s a step up.
It's especially maddening that wokeness has led orchestras to promote Price instead of more talented Black male composers, when Price isn’t even alive to benefit… and then living female performers, of all races, will be disadvantaged by the new audition process.
As for affirmative action, I agree with everything, but I also think we should emphasize that John’s ideal world (class-based affirmative action) will be a lot more equitable than the current reality which favors affluent Black kids (often the kids of recent immigrants from Africa). There might be fewer Black students total, but I’m guessing the number of ADOS (American descendents of enslaved persons) and low-income Black students will actually increase with a class model.
We also need to stop penalizing Asian students vs. white. It makes no sense. I have an Asian spouse, and our child is mixed (white and Asian). My spouse (who is very pragmatic and unsentimental) says “We can just say he’s white.” I’ll let our son decide when the time comes – but it’s bonkers that he’s better off listing my race when my spouse is an immigrant who didn’t speak English, and had a lot less economic privilege. We’re rewarding people for being white – why aren’t woke people upset about it?
I hope we switch to class, and that we force universities to release data so we can see if they’re actually admitting low-income POC or if they’re still favoring rich kids.
Right-on Carina. I had the experience to teach at one of the best high schools in California Whitney High School in Cerritos with say 70% Asian students requesting extra homework! Impressed with Asian American academic habits and respect for the educator now if only schools in Latino and Black neighborhoods could adopt some of those Asian education values their politicians would not be whining about "systemic-racism".
Excellent episode gentlemen. I sincerely appreciate the ability to have conversations that are frank regardless of topic and you both epitomize this in modern America. As we can see with Don Baton this ability to have such honest conversations are becoming ever more difficult. Wokeness is a disease that we must forcefully push back on, much like racism IMO. Neither is an ideology that is rationally based and both only divide rather than unify. I continue to hold out hope that intelligent voices like yours can bring about this awakening.
OK it's time somebody says it, and please don't take it the wrong way: Prof. McWhorter, you are using the phrase "a certain kind of person" a tad to much.
Ok but can you suggest a sufficiently McWhortery alternative? “some simpleton for whom”, “one of those MFers like”, “that bitch, Stacy”? I think a.C.K.o.P. may be the center of this particular bullseye.
Word. A resonant quote from Prof. Loury: "The road to mediocrity is paved with petty identitarianism." It is interesting that classical music in USA has succumbed to the woke DEI revolution. Can the damage be reversed?
In defense of Florence Price, the music she wrote is no worse than classical music written by anyone else since the late 1800's.
Joking aside, and with the acknowledgement that I am not equipped to critique such music, it's no surprise she would be championed by the woke brigades.
I very much enjoyed the episode. I've always found the topic of blind auditions an interesting one.
I’m part way through the episode and y’all mentioned something like “maybe at the very top of skill level you can’t tell the performers apart” but I think it’s the opposite. Talent actually gets sparser as you move away from the center of the bell curve towards the very best outliers. Just look at basketball -- at the very top end the all stars are rare and each bring a different set of strengths and weaknesses. You would notice the difference if you passed on then 10th best black NBA player and substituted him for the 10th best Asian.
The Goldin and Rouse paper on blind auditions, while a classic, turns out to be on shaky ground. It is far from clear that blind auditions *caused* women to increase their presence in orchestras, and there are plenty of confounding factors. If blind auditions caused the improvement, the data do not prove it. I strongly recommend Glenn take a look at the technical details!
Everyone agrees that blind auditions are good, but a careful look at the data in the paper reveals that some of the claims are supported very poorly, not supported at all, or support the opposite conclusion (that in certain points the data indicate women did better without the blind audition).
Yeah so it’s normal now to be scared to speak up - that because of the right , right John - I am so tired of race and the race hustler -John ok w Harris wanting black people to receive more help then Whites during Ian ? It’s disgusting what’s become if this country and race thanks to George floyd - SMH
Yes!! It's like living under a scary regime from seventy years ago in a foreign land. Just take your pick of a country that was led by a dictator. If you spoke up, then you and your family had to suffer the consequences. Now we have music conductors in America who are afraid to express the truth for fear of being blackballed. That's so sad.
It is my uninformed opinion that in the world of opera, there has not been, nor is there a need for racial preferences for Black female singers. At the very top of that world we have the incomparable Leontyne Price, Kathleen Battle, the sublime Jesse Norman, and the upcoming Pretty Yende, just to name a few.
Time 37:00 where Glen and John discuss the weirdness of Equity remediation. If Equity program had gone through normal and transparent “program proposal process”, it would have been rejected everywhere because each Equity strategy is random. I worry about mental health outcomes of African Americans due to Equity messaging and actions. The equity program does not lend itself to prediction and each new story is independent of every other equity story. If I tried to take it seriously, it would drive me crazy.
Dr Glenn and John I read their books back in college now they've gone digital and better than ever I am blessed to read their words and thoughts and proud to be born in the same country the United States. Gracias a dios.
Story today in the Wall St Journal about hesitancy and reluctance from the US State Dept to initiate DEI initiatives. Call it a lackluster response from US State Dept to implement DEI but I don't care if our diplomats are all White or Black keep us out of war and defend US interests.
At time 19:00, John addresses concept of John Doe “Seeing himself per the racial identity of a role-model conductor” for example. I am a homosexual and I never thought that the professional I desired to emulate needed to be gay. Behavioral scientists have ways of studying this objectively. I suspect the concept was partially true per sex in some work environments where practical concerns are relevant; such as “Is there an area where a female employee can safely and privately change clothes?”, “Is late-hour work-schedule conduce to a woman’s safety needs when getting off work?”, etc. To any PhD psychologists who remain silent during such dubious claims- you do not have necessary leadership skills for management or director positions at present or in future.
As a high school boy, I saw Manny Laureano (trumpeter, black) BANG out a Haydn concerto with the Minnesota Orchestra and Neville Mariner. It was the first time I'd heard classical trumpet played at that level.
It was beautiful and exciting! And part of what was cool was seeing that black dude take the solo role in front of all those other classical musicians, maybe the only black person on stage, and do it very well. At the time it felt like some kind of hopeful cross-over to my young self--I still can't articulate properly how interesting it was at the social level--but I'd guess that Mr. Laureano probably thought it was another day playing music for a living.
This "how many of these, how many of those" world we live in... all you can do is laugh. Take the argument that after a certain core competency, further excellence doesn't matter. That's not completely illogical. Does the difference between the New York Philharmonic and the Binghampton Philharmonic really matter? Does the difference between a local small college baseball team and the New York Yankees matter? If you watch the Yankees-Red Sox or Mudville Tech-Mudville A&M, you're still just watching two teams compete in something that is ultimately meaningless.
Airline pilots and bridge builders, of course, that's another story.
It's all about competition and meritocracy. Those are ingrained parts of humanity. To perform a balancing act for "fairness" goes against human nature. Having the best players reap the best rewards is felt by everyone to be right and just and human. The only reason anyone disputes that is because politicians elevate their own competitions above the competitions of music and sports and life in general.
Great discussion, gentlemen. It really highlights how the current DEI mania is a stealth assault on meritocracy.
So many today will reply "No, Glenn, it *doesn't* matter if we have the best of the best in first chair because it's all just power and corruption."
This is the subconscious appeal of anti-racism to many white folks: it makes them feel better about failures in their own lives.
Great episode. I can’t believe they are getting rid of blind auditions when sexism is still a huge problem for musicians. My sister is a very accomplished musician, and she gets pigeonholed as a “teacher” rather than a performer—and even in the world of teaching, women are seen as teachers of young children. She has developed very talented students, only to have parents switch them to a male teacher because they think it’s a step up.
It's especially maddening that wokeness has led orchestras to promote Price instead of more talented Black male composers, when Price isn’t even alive to benefit… and then living female performers, of all races, will be disadvantaged by the new audition process.
As for affirmative action, I agree with everything, but I also think we should emphasize that John’s ideal world (class-based affirmative action) will be a lot more equitable than the current reality which favors affluent Black kids (often the kids of recent immigrants from Africa). There might be fewer Black students total, but I’m guessing the number of ADOS (American descendents of enslaved persons) and low-income Black students will actually increase with a class model.
We also need to stop penalizing Asian students vs. white. It makes no sense. I have an Asian spouse, and our child is mixed (white and Asian). My spouse (who is very pragmatic and unsentimental) says “We can just say he’s white.” I’ll let our son decide when the time comes – but it’s bonkers that he’s better off listing my race when my spouse is an immigrant who didn’t speak English, and had a lot less economic privilege. We’re rewarding people for being white – why aren’t woke people upset about it?
I hope we switch to class, and that we force universities to release data so we can see if they’re actually admitting low-income POC or if they’re still favoring rich kids.
Right-on Carina. I had the experience to teach at one of the best high schools in California Whitney High School in Cerritos with say 70% Asian students requesting extra homework! Impressed with Asian American academic habits and respect for the educator now if only schools in Latino and Black neighborhoods could adopt some of those Asian education values their politicians would not be whining about "systemic-racism".
Excellent episode gentlemen. I sincerely appreciate the ability to have conversations that are frank regardless of topic and you both epitomize this in modern America. As we can see with Don Baton this ability to have such honest conversations are becoming ever more difficult. Wokeness is a disease that we must forcefully push back on, much like racism IMO. Neither is an ideology that is rationally based and both only divide rather than unify. I continue to hold out hope that intelligent voices like yours can bring about this awakening.
Great episode. John's pearl clutching about the court is a bit much, but the man knows what's up more often than not.
OK it's time somebody says it, and please don't take it the wrong way: Prof. McWhorter, you are using the phrase "a certain kind of person" a tad to much.
Love the show, sterling work.
Ok but can you suggest a sufficiently McWhortery alternative? “some simpleton for whom”, “one of those MFers like”, “that bitch, Stacy”? I think a.C.K.o.P. may be the center of this particular bullseye.
Word. A resonant quote from Prof. Loury: "The road to mediocrity is paved with petty identitarianism." It is interesting that classical music in USA has succumbed to the woke DEI revolution. Can the damage be reversed?
In defense of Florence Price, the music she wrote is no worse than classical music written by anyone else since the late 1800's.
Joking aside, and with the acknowledgement that I am not equipped to critique such music, it's no surprise she would be championed by the woke brigades.
I very much enjoyed the episode. I've always found the topic of blind auditions an interesting one.
I’m part way through the episode and y’all mentioned something like “maybe at the very top of skill level you can’t tell the performers apart” but I think it’s the opposite. Talent actually gets sparser as you move away from the center of the bell curve towards the very best outliers. Just look at basketball -- at the very top end the all stars are rare and each bring a different set of strengths and weaknesses. You would notice the difference if you passed on then 10th best black NBA player and substituted him for the 10th best Asian.
The Goldin and Rouse paper on blind auditions, while a classic, turns out to be on shaky ground. It is far from clear that blind auditions *caused* women to increase their presence in orchestras, and there are plenty of confounding factors. If blind auditions caused the improvement, the data do not prove it. I strongly recommend Glenn take a look at the technical details!
Here's a solid overview by Columbia's Andrew Gelman (a specialist in causal inference) of criticisms of the original paper: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-orchestra-auditions-really-benefit-women/
Everyone agrees that blind auditions are good, but a careful look at the data in the paper reveals that some of the claims are supported very poorly, not supported at all, or support the opposite conclusion (that in certain points the data indicate women did better without the blind audition).
A very interesting quantitative analysis!
Yeah so it’s normal now to be scared to speak up - that because of the right , right John - I am so tired of race and the race hustler -John ok w Harris wanting black people to receive more help then Whites during Ian ? It’s disgusting what’s become if this country and race thanks to George floyd - SMH
Yes!! It's like living under a scary regime from seventy years ago in a foreign land. Just take your pick of a country that was led by a dictator. If you spoke up, then you and your family had to suffer the consequences. Now we have music conductors in America who are afraid to express the truth for fear of being blackballed. That's so sad.
It is my uninformed opinion that in the world of opera, there has not been, nor is there a need for racial preferences for Black female singers. At the very top of that world we have the incomparable Leontyne Price, Kathleen Battle, the sublime Jesse Norman, and the upcoming Pretty Yende, just to name a few.