After John and I discussed the documentary The Fall of Minneapolis late last year, we heard from one of the major players in the case against Derek Chauvin and the other officers involved: Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison.
I had been looking forward to this conversation and now that I’m 3/4 through it all I can say is wow.
First of all a quick aside, I am sometimes critical of John although I hugely respect him, and both Glenn and John were great here but this was a masterclass from John’s perspective. Talk about holding the guy accountable and pushing him to answer questions. Excellent work.
But the other “wow” is that I’m amazed at how out of touch this man is! He’s clearly infected by this new Marxist ideology.
* He didn’t believe it was correct (if I understood correctly) that black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Unless he was saying it was incorrect that he didn’t care about it. I’m not clear.
* He is a black man who holds the position of attorney general in the state of Minnesota. He scoffed when Glenn mentioned fatherless homes and then went on to describe how he grew up with his father in the home. He can’t see the correlation between his success and having both parents in the home!
* He thinks a better thing to focus on is truancy. Clearly not seeing that having fathers at home would likely fix that problem.
* He thinks charter schools segregate kids and all kids would be better off if they were just mixed together. I’m glad Glenn and John both pushed back on this. This guy doesn’t know the data, he also doesn’t realize or care that public schools are a mess and the kids are out of control. So he would rather, presumably in the name of ‘equity’ (Marxist) have all kids suffer equally, rather than allow kids who want to do well to have a place they can focus on their studies rather than public school violence.
I mean we all know how successful charter schools are and that’s why black families try so hard to send their kids there.
It’s amazing to me how out of touch from reality this man is and how ideologically driven he seemed to be. Especially considering he’s the AG.
For a podcast entitled prosecuting Chauvin I was disappointed how little time was allocated to this topic. Not once did they discuss Mr. Floyd’s behavior at the time of arrest. Additionally, they did not discuss Mr Floyd’s level of narcotics or his chronic ill health and it’s impact on his ultimate demise. Mr Ellison was never ask to comment on these inconvenient facts. Had Mr. Floyd compiled with police directions surely his matter would not have derailed the country for 2 years nor would their be any question of murder. If nothing else I would love to know how Mr. Ellison would deal with the belligerence exhibited by Mr Floyd. No doubt were it not for slavery, Mr Floyd would not have resisted.
Yes Mr Chauvin was convicted of via a jury trial. Legally it cannot be argued he is not guilty of murder. A similar finding applies to OJ. He did not commit murder. The justice system renders verdicts, it does not validate facts.
I was pleased Glenn and John question a number of Mr Ellison’s assumptions. I just wish they hadn’t shown him quite so much deference. For example, Mr Ellison claimed there police were not defunded, it was simply a talking point used for partisan benefit. Tens of cities (including New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Baltimore …) across the US reduced police funding. I am certain both Glenn and John are aware of this.
How about the part where police morale is raised when criminals are actually prosecuted for their crimes, rather than immediately released? Glenn and John, why did you let this guy redirect the conversation to schools etc. His roll is prosecuting crime, and he didn’t answer Johns question early on. I can see where at some point you two decided that you weren’t going to get much out of him, but good God fellas, I would have appreciated a bit more effort here.
I once voted for Kieth Ellison. Thanks for having him on. On the prosecution discussion, his points were interesting and I felt better about him. Yet, on the rest, I agree that many of his his arguments are tired. His social science is way behind the curve. John & Glenn, you guys were brave to have him on.
Regarding rioters/arsonists at 3rd Precinct Police Station: May 30, 2020 marked the 10th week of the Covid pandemic emergency in USA. I was scared that SF numbers would soon become like NYC. A potentially high Covid death count would require increased deployment of emergency personnel- paramedics, fire and police. May 30 was also during the most restrictive phase of the Covid Shut-down due to elevated disease concern.
If the 3rd Precinct rioters/arsonists were unwelcome from perspective of City Hall and DEI and if Minneapolis Police Department were truly overwhelmed by rioters, then the mayor calls the governor asap and says “I need your help immediately.” That is standard emergency procedure.
From my public health perspective, emergency response employees and property are top priority during a pandemic. On transmission- we only learned after the fact that we erred on the side of caution. But, at week 10 with limited information- we could have easily erred in the opposite direction. Sudden presence of thousands of street protesters in the densest parts of the densest cities could have generated a nationwide transmission mega-spike with deaths jumping upward.
From my public health perspective; instructing the nation’s public to cover faces for protection- necessities increased public and gov cooperation with police. The reason is that decreased facial recognition places the public at increased risk of crime. I passed my supervisor on the sidewalk without recognizing her due to Covid mask. Instead of cooperation, Minneapolis City Hall painted a target on police foreheads.
May/June 2020 actions of gov officials in Minneapolis and Minnesota make sense to them based on information available to them. But, they deliberately concealed such information from the public- which is a transparency and disclosure violation. Across the US, officials in 100 DEI cities and 25 DEI states exercised an extreme degree of secrecy that makes Billionaire-recluse Howard Hughes look like a “Tell all blabber-mouth.” Not acceptable in a democracy.
[Time 55]; I am Muslim and I condemn the sadistic murderous rampage of Hamas on Oct 7. Palestinians have rejected statehood proposal from Israel because they truly want river to sea- where Israel is erased.
[Time 51:00]; AG Ellison suggests red-light runners receive ticket by postal mail instead of police pursuit that becomes high-speed chase. (1): If the criminal suspect were cooperative, there would be no high-speed chase. (2): Civilians with outstanding warrants or involvement in criminality are more likely to flee so as to avoid arrest. (3): Military background is good training for police because interaction with criminals is conflict-ridden.
[Time 40:00]; Arson at 3rd Precinct Police Station: (1) If “police violence” a true concern, trespassers/arsonists would be afraid of experiencing police violence. The fire added fuel to nationwide outrage “fire”. I believe that was the DEI intent. Regardless- fire the incompetent mayor for allowing gov property to be stolen and destroyed. (2): I suspect that rioters/arsonists got permission from City Hall to proceed with trespass into 3rd Precinct. (3) I want 3rd Precinct trespassers/arsonists arrested. (4) Fire the mayor for treason.
Thank you professors GL/JM and Minnesota Attorney General for your discussion.
[Time 22:00]; (1): If I compare myself to Officer Chauvin, the most harmful thing I could possibly do at my job is to accidentally kill an innocent computer. (2): Years ago, I supervised friends’ 4-10 yr old nephews - who were uncooperative, and dangerous to themselves and others. I told the uncles - “never again”. Police do not have such luxuries as 1 and 2.
(3):Once an officer sees a criminal suspect, he is essentially “glued to” suspect until delivery at a jail cell, even if uncooperative. Expecting no injury when suspect is resisting or fighting police - is illogical.
(4): In “The Fall of Minneapolis”; I didn’t see the other three officers display disapproval or verbally criticize Chauvin at the crime scene. To me, that suggests that Chauvin’s actions were viewed as normal.
(5): Expert testimony on witness stand about proper restraint technique should not be treated as if a retroactive rule while corresponding text in police handbook is vague.
(6): In 2016-ish; Suspect Tony Timpa of Dallas had officer knee on shoulder/neck for 11 minutes and died. Police in different jurisdictions appear to believe such procedure is allowable. This suggests to me that top-down communication is at fault.
(7): Beginning Wednesday April 3, 2024; all police in 100 DEI cities should begin strike. Do not go to work until the DEI-allies (DEI directors, police chief, health chief and mayor) are fired and DEI abolished. You can quote me.
Ellison struck me as fundamentally dishonest, little more than a demagogue. While not a firehose of falsehoods, his firehose of facts, assertions, dodges into historic grievances, self-promoting stories, policy proposals, ad hominem attacks on opponents and free passes for those sympathetic to his views sounded like a stump speech. It did not come over as a good faith attempt to answer tough questions, most of which he dodged. Nor was it a coherent, well-constructed defense of the prosecution of Derek Chauvin. I listened most of the time, so missed many reaction shots, though at one point I caught John looking like someone caught at a dinner party listening to a complete bore of a guest who never shuts up. I appreciate this show in good part because Glenn and John ask tough questions of their guests. In this case they tried and maybe gave up. To be sure, it's tough to ask tough questions of someone who never stops talking, who strings together words in a logic and toward an end known only to himself, who continually overtalks and interrupts. But I was disappointed, and didn't buy the amity at the end. The Fall of Minneapolis may well not have proven the innocence of Derek Chauvin, but it significantly complicated the "racist white cop kills innocent black man" story, and it showed some of the cost of that story to the city of Minneapolis and, by extension, the country as a whole. What I took from Ellison's appearance was a sense that his taking over the Chauvin case may well have been driven by a deep animus. That doesn't mean that Chauvin and his colleagues were not responsible, in whole or in part, for Floyd's death. But it also does not reduce my sense of unease over the conduct of the trial.
Keith Ellison says Chauvin, et al are in part guilty for not starting medical treatment on George Floyd at the scene. Ellison doesn't mention that policy says when it is safe to do so. Ellison also doesn't mention that MFD EMTs didn't start to work on Floyd until they were a number of blocks away from the scene. A scene one witness from the neighborhood called a "hot corner".
Ellison also mentions that holding Floyd's legs contributed to his death. Ellison does not mention that when Chauvin, et al took Floyd out of the squad they put him in the side recovery position. In that position, Floyd delivers a ferocious kick to Lane causing Lane to swear. It is in response to Floyd's actions of resistance that he is moved from the side recovery position.
Did Ellison, before, during or after the interview mention why Dr. Martin Tobin lied on the witness stand?
(1): In “The Fall Of…”, I didn’t see Floyd show sign of respiratory distress.
(2): In March 2024; a judge in SF municipal criminal court awarded probation to a young latino man who viciously stabbed a 94-year old Asian woman (who survived). I guess the defendant followed procedure correctly in the “stabbing humans” handbook. He wore a police ankle-bracelet device at time of attack. Judge said she did not want him to go to prison. DA was pissed. Chauvin accidentally/unwillingly killed uncooperative civilian while doing assigned job - 22yrs prison. Knife Stabber was definitely trying to murder the 94-yr old (unless she were mugging him) and gets probation.
😅You never know who you're sharing a space with until you dive into the comments sections!
It speaks to the range of diversity in thought around here...I guess.
It's not a broad spectrum, but a spectrum nonetheless. We can look at each other's reads and see that. (Subscribers to The Bulwark is about as far left as it gets around here.)
I would love for Glenn and Sussman to do another informal survey (of paid subscribers in particular). i.e., who here self-describes as "right" and why? Who here self-describes as "left" and why? I assume the bird's eye view ratio is at least 4: 1 in favor of the right. But who knows?
And how does that break down? Passionate Trump supporters? Reluctant Trump supporters? NeverTrumpers? Lifelong Dems?
Any self-avowed White nationalists/sympathizers in here? (Not that long ago, there were at least a couple.) Are there any self-avowed Black nationalists?
While we're at it, how about some normal demographic info: age, sex, ethnicity?
You might want to try and logically assess the content of the comments. I suppose in today’s world, folks look for partisan perspective rather than judging if the comment has merit outside a left/right world view
Looks like you made a comment and it disappeared. Not sure if you took it back or what. But here is a brief answer nonetheless:
Surmising (not declaring) that the ratio of self-described rightists here outweigh others 4 to 1 (and desiring a survey to know for sure) does not mean I do not assess a group of comments logically. (Speaking of logic...)
As for "viewing things through a partisan lens", I never claimed to be pure or neutral, and I'm not sure who here does (Glenn and John included).
And I don't know why that would be a problem for anyone.
Ellison's strongest point, to my mind, was about the rash of juvenile motor vehicle thefts. This can't be attributed to single parent homes or any such slow moving factors. School absenteeism does seem like the most important proximate cause, and as he pointed out, even if students are learning very little they are more likely to stay out of trouble.
I also think that he is right to say that people in different communities commit crimes for much the same reasons, though I would emphasize incentives (preemption, retaliation, lack of formal dispute resolution systems when engaged in prohibited transactions, etc) rather than his appeal to bad apples or your general appeal to culture.
On the passion question I think it was a bit unfair to say that he doesn't care much about civilian crime, and the case where he took charge of a prosecution for a particularly heinous offense was an effective rebuttal.
His appeals to the broad sweep of history (slavery, segregation) are surely relevant but these are presented as conversation stoppers rather than the first step in trying to figure out mechanisms and solutions. This was the most frustrating part of the conversation, especially regarding charter schools. He is dogmatic on these (and a few other) issues. But some of your commenters seem to think he has little of value to say about anything, and I think this is not correct.
The lovely tribute at the end where he pointed out that the two of you can converse productively with people who can't have useful conversations with each other was touching.
I am not an economist. Cost is also a factor in youth auto-theft. 2020 “Defund” PR via mayors snd news media signaled to public that law enforcement would be reduced. A personal friend who rides a bike and knew about “Defund” news became more criminal because he knew enforcement rate was reduced. He became less compliant with traffic light signaling when on bike. I suggest the same for youth and car theft.
It's a factor Jon but in this case I don't think a major one compared to social media influence and absenteeism. Young men often underestimate these costs, which have generally been much lower than for adults in any case. If they are doing well in school and have bright prospects the opportunity costs are much greater, but that's not where absenteeism is concentrated. Also, the rash of thefts spans many jurisdictions with different admistrations and policies. But your claim is an empirical one and I don't have strong causal evidence either way.
They didn't specifically address carjacking and motor vehicle theft. Here's an excerpt:
Executive Summary
This Institute for Family Studies report finds that strong families are associated with less crime in cities across the United States, as well in neighborhoods across Chicago. Specifically, our analyses indicate that the total crime rate in cities with high levels of single parenthood are 48% higher than those with low levels of single parenthood. When it comes to violent crime and homicide, cities with high levels of single parenthood have 118% higher rates of violence and 255% higher rates of homicide. And in Chicago, our analysis of census tract data from the city shows that tracts with high levels of single-parent-headed households face 137% higher total crime rates, 226% higher violent crime rates, and 436% higher homicide rates, compared to tracts with low levels of single parenthood. We also find that poverty, education, and race are linked to city and census-tract level trends in crime. In general, in cities across America, and on the streets of Chicago, this report finds that public safety is greater in communities where the two-parent family is the dominant norm.
As for carjackings and motor vehicle thefts, there are no clear cut answers about what caused the spike. Here are links to a Chicago Tribune piece and a series from the NBC affiliate in St. Louis that touch on some of the possible causes:
Some say that criminal justice reforms that were enacted after George Floyd died may have contributed to the spike because the consequences for young carjackers are modest. Some of those reforms are being rolled back in places like Maryland and Washington, D.C.:
School absenteeism may be playing a role as well, but the AEI report referenced by the NY Times shows that the racial groups with the highest levels of households led by single parents also have the highest levels of absenteeism.
Yes it was less than comprehensive, but at least we might be able to get absenteeism and motor vehicle theft to pre-pandemic levels so it's a productive conversation to have, even if we can't do much about family structure in the short run, and can't do anything about the history of segregation etc.
Remote schooling and hybrid schooling, during the covid-19 pandemic, seems to have been a catalyst for increased absenteeism, and it's not clear how long it will take to reverse this. It's often easier to create problems than to fix them. Prominent physicians, such as John Ioannidis and Vinay Prasad, warned that the school lockdowns were likely to create problems whose effects would exist for decades. Monica Gandhi indicates in her book Endemic that enough data were available by August 2020 to know that school lockdowns should not continue. Let's hope that government officials and the media pay more attention to science when the next pandemic arrives. Politicians who push identity politics the hardest were the first ones to throw Black and Hispanic kids under the bus.
The NY Times piece suggested that we may be at a "new normal" in terms of absenteeism. Let's hope that's not the case because the link between absenteeism and academic achievement is strong. Those with doubts should take a look at Figure 12.2 from this NCES analysis:
The public is demanding that something be done about young car thieves and carjackers. Elected officials in DC and Maryland have responded. Similar adjustments are taking place in communities around the country. We'll see soon enough if these policy shifts were helpful.
Absenteeism doesn't happen in a vacuum. Nor is it genetic or an act of Nature. It happens for the same family culture reasons. Family and family culture is the issue, whichever way you look at it.
Looked at another way, there is increasing absenteeism across socio-economic classes and US states (recent NYT piece). Yet, we are not seeing crime and car thefts and general mayhem anywhere else except inner cities.
My point is that we can try to do something about proximate causes, return to pre-pandemic levels of absenteeism and motor vehicle theft, even if we can't do much about family structure in the short run, and can't do anything at all to change our history of slavery and segregation, and this is a productive conversation to have.
I would like to see Fryer on the show anyway, but he doesn't seem open to a lot of interviews. (What is that about?) He did a great one with Bari Weiss a month or two ago, but I haven't seen him anywhere since.
I am not so sure Roland would rebut the verdict in the Chauvin case.
Agree. Perhaps Fryer could rebut Ellison's comments about crime and leave the Chauvin rebuttal to someone more familiar with it. After being disappointed by AG Ellison's description of crime in general, I began to doubt his trustworthiness on the specifics of the Chauvin case as well.
I’m ready to cancel my $7 a month man. Pathetic. Glenn you didn’t have any qualms, never pushed back, and neither of you know anything about Ellison’s Farrakhan and Antifa ties. Ellison’s a lightweight hollering bland generalities and deflections. God damn I can’t believe you let him snow you. 100%. Oh, and for perspective, I'm a lifelong Dem.
Just remembered, I am anonymous on here, so let me correct that: I am Theodore Olson, author of Hotspvrre Substack, former career St. Paul special education teacher who took on the ruse, “School-to-Prison-Pipeline” of Michelle Alexander, and Black Lives Matter from 2016 through 2018. We talked, Glenn, at St. Olaf in 2018, about the faux-anti-racism industry, and I have told you guys both the millions of dollars of DEI contracts invested in these lies about kids who commit crimes, who kill us and each other while jacking cars. They are barely freshmen in high school. How you could let this Muslim Brotherhood Antifa clown and failed nominated head of the Democratic National Committee snow you is beyond me. That said, I’m done with my subscription. We cannot truck with the coddling of evildoers, and Ellison is Minnesota’s public enemy number one.
I feel this way about Amy Wax. But I never considered leaving this place because...well, life is not so simple.
Glenn and John are still serious thinkers. That hasn't changed. I couldn't disagree with you more. They didn't get "snowed". (In fact, they have come a lot closer to admitting they got snowed by The Fall of Minneapolis.)
Dialogue is fundamental, especially on these topics and in this environment.
I’m here till April 30, and followed them since 2017, Bloggingheads days. Yes they are still serious thinkers. I know the entire gamut of nuanced differences between the gentlemen, to the extent I know how Glenn will react to John and vice versa. I’ve talked with Glenn in person.
The Fall of Minneapolis is not unbiased (I didn’t like its lurid music), but it’s not propaganda, and scored points that mainstream media would not touch with a 10’ pole, for instance the original GF autopsy disappearing once Keith Ellison got at ME Andrew Baker, and the fact ambulance was called immediately and got the wrong address and sat parked half a mile away. Ellison is still thirsty to uphold the wrongful convictions of Lane, Kueng, and Thao.
There are many things Fall of Mpls got right. Glenn should not have turned 180* and refuted it. That’s weak.
Also, I live here and work with mentally ill patients on the street where GF went down. My bonafides’ roots go back to my own name trashed by psychotic local BLMers in 2016 which cost me my teaching career.
There’s much more I could tell you about the backstory to George Floyd.
I have followed McWhorter since he became a public figure. He and I are the same age. I was much more of a "Black conservative" in the 90s and early 2000s--proud of it actually. But now, because of the right's profound devolution, I am a little embarrassed by my past associations even though ironically, I still see myself as philosophically right-of-center. It's weird, but c'est la vie.
I knew about Glenn, even as far back as the 80s, but didn't follow him nearly as much as when he teamed up with John via Bloggingheads.TV. I was hooked fast. I felt like they were me in many ways. I might have their entire podcast collection on old hard drives dating back to pre-Obama'08.
In other words, I know them well, too. I never met them in person, but I know them. And they know me, too, sort of, as a sometimes/oftentimes Bulwarky voice in the comments. But enough about me.
I just cannot take TFOM seriously. No, I haven't seen it, and at this point? I feel like it would be a waste of my time. Chaix and Collin have major credibility issues. I sensed that BEFORE Balko, in my opinion, ripped them a new one, along with Coleman.
But fwiw, you sound like someone who could offer new perspective. I will be the first to admit that the overall state of the right colors my ability to listen to a Rumble or an Alpha News or any of those guys. And I don't see that as my fault. I have seen way too much bs ooze from that camp, especially since Trumpism took over. But as you say, that doesn't impugn everything that comes from that world. Maybe it takes someone like you to build a bridge? At this point, I really don't know, man. It's tough to have a serious dialogue in this environment.
I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I'm not clueless =)
It’s interesting. Thanks for your thoughtfulness, Charles, and not dismissing my POV. We are much more than a moment’s comment in a thread. You’ve been on what looks like quite the journey. Very humanizing. I think we would get along well. I had no clue about these guys prior to 2017. I’m older than John and you, 64. My dad administered the Mpls Health and Welfare Dept in the sixties. Never voted Republican. But like my dad grew jaded with the Panthers, I became jaded with BLM and Antifa. The Dem divisions are epic, and no place runs bluer than Minneapolis. Our guy Humphrey created the Civil Rights Act and Affirmative Action. The Right makes me shake my head at their stupidity. The Left terrifies me because they run everything except the Supreme Court, Silicon Valley, every boardroom and school district and the military. Liz Collin is interesting, former anchor of CBSLocal WCCO-4, a liberal station, driven from her post due to her husband Bob Kroll’s ex-police union leadership. To my understanding she agreed not to cover the police, but then they took her off completely. I was only bothered by her unwillingness to admit that BlackLivesMatter and an elected state rep hung an effigy of her and husband in their front yard and beat it to pieces. That needed saying, and she declined to say it, which weakened her journalistic integrity. But look past that, look past the lurid music, and dramatic lighting, and watch the episode for information you might not have heard before.
Here’s my rationale on leaving Glenn’s Substack: I have fought too long and too hard for the truth regarding unspoken narratives in America to allow myself to get an ulcer over yet another missed opportunity. I was devoted forever, and took this podcast seriously. But I am done being frustrated by Glenn and John’s blind spots. They can’t know about every bad-faith actor who comes on their show, but they did not do their diligence with Keith Ellison, and my chapter, my undying support, needs to end. I need to get over their frailties. They’ve never understood how public schools succumbed to Marxism, holed up as they are in their think tanks and ivory towers, the fertile ground that Black Lives Matter planted into, and how radical activism works with 14, 15, and 16-year-olds, young people who haven’t yet or are never going to enroll at Brown or Columbia. Thanks for engaging with me, Charles. I like your thinking, and I’m glad we’ve found common ground. Cheers, Theo Olson
I had been looking forward to this conversation and now that I’m 3/4 through it all I can say is wow.
First of all a quick aside, I am sometimes critical of John although I hugely respect him, and both Glenn and John were great here but this was a masterclass from John’s perspective. Talk about holding the guy accountable and pushing him to answer questions. Excellent work.
But the other “wow” is that I’m amazed at how out of touch this man is! He’s clearly infected by this new Marxist ideology.
* He didn’t believe it was correct (if I understood correctly) that black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Unless he was saying it was incorrect that he didn’t care about it. I’m not clear.
* He is a black man who holds the position of attorney general in the state of Minnesota. He scoffed when Glenn mentioned fatherless homes and then went on to describe how he grew up with his father in the home. He can’t see the correlation between his success and having both parents in the home!
* He thinks a better thing to focus on is truancy. Clearly not seeing that having fathers at home would likely fix that problem.
* He thinks charter schools segregate kids and all kids would be better off if they were just mixed together. I’m glad Glenn and John both pushed back on this. This guy doesn’t know the data, he also doesn’t realize or care that public schools are a mess and the kids are out of control. So he would rather, presumably in the name of ‘equity’ (Marxist) have all kids suffer equally, rather than allow kids who want to do well to have a place they can focus on their studies rather than public school violence.
I mean we all know how successful charter schools are and that’s why black families try so hard to send their kids there.
It’s amazing to me how out of touch from reality this man is and how ideologically driven he seemed to be. Especially considering he’s the AG.
For a podcast entitled prosecuting Chauvin I was disappointed how little time was allocated to this topic. Not once did they discuss Mr. Floyd’s behavior at the time of arrest. Additionally, they did not discuss Mr Floyd’s level of narcotics or his chronic ill health and it’s impact on his ultimate demise. Mr Ellison was never ask to comment on these inconvenient facts. Had Mr. Floyd compiled with police directions surely his matter would not have derailed the country for 2 years nor would their be any question of murder. If nothing else I would love to know how Mr. Ellison would deal with the belligerence exhibited by Mr Floyd. No doubt were it not for slavery, Mr Floyd would not have resisted.
Yes Mr Chauvin was convicted of via a jury trial. Legally it cannot be argued he is not guilty of murder. A similar finding applies to OJ. He did not commit murder. The justice system renders verdicts, it does not validate facts.
I was pleased Glenn and John question a number of Mr Ellison’s assumptions. I just wish they hadn’t shown him quite so much deference. For example, Mr Ellison claimed there police were not defunded, it was simply a talking point used for partisan benefit. Tens of cities (including New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Baltimore …) across the US reduced police funding. I am certain both Glenn and John are aware of this.
How about the part where police morale is raised when criminals are actually prosecuted for their crimes, rather than immediately released? Glenn and John, why did you let this guy redirect the conversation to schools etc. His roll is prosecuting crime, and he didn’t answer Johns question early on. I can see where at some point you two decided that you weren’t going to get much out of him, but good God fellas, I would have appreciated a bit more effort here.
I once voted for Kieth Ellison. Thanks for having him on. On the prosecution discussion, his points were interesting and I felt better about him. Yet, on the rest, I agree that many of his his arguments are tired. His social science is way behind the curve. John & Glenn, you guys were brave to have him on.
He’s just a never ending stream of cliches from 1963 and an avoidance reality in 2024. He’s the status quo mouthpiece
Regarding rioters/arsonists at 3rd Precinct Police Station: May 30, 2020 marked the 10th week of the Covid pandemic emergency in USA. I was scared that SF numbers would soon become like NYC. A potentially high Covid death count would require increased deployment of emergency personnel- paramedics, fire and police. May 30 was also during the most restrictive phase of the Covid Shut-down due to elevated disease concern.
If the 3rd Precinct rioters/arsonists were unwelcome from perspective of City Hall and DEI and if Minneapolis Police Department were truly overwhelmed by rioters, then the mayor calls the governor asap and says “I need your help immediately.” That is standard emergency procedure.
From my public health perspective, emergency response employees and property are top priority during a pandemic. On transmission- we only learned after the fact that we erred on the side of caution. But, at week 10 with limited information- we could have easily erred in the opposite direction. Sudden presence of thousands of street protesters in the densest parts of the densest cities could have generated a nationwide transmission mega-spike with deaths jumping upward.
From my public health perspective; instructing the nation’s public to cover faces for protection- necessities increased public and gov cooperation with police. The reason is that decreased facial recognition places the public at increased risk of crime. I passed my supervisor on the sidewalk without recognizing her due to Covid mask. Instead of cooperation, Minneapolis City Hall painted a target on police foreheads.
May/June 2020 actions of gov officials in Minneapolis and Minnesota make sense to them based on information available to them. But, they deliberately concealed such information from the public- which is a transparency and disclosure violation. Across the US, officials in 100 DEI cities and 25 DEI states exercised an extreme degree of secrecy that makes Billionaire-recluse Howard Hughes look like a “Tell all blabber-mouth.” Not acceptable in a democracy.
I'd say "we" erred on the side of idiocy and authoritarian overreach.
And the “we” should have attentively observed Florida and Sweden.
[Time 55]; I am Muslim and I condemn the sadistic murderous rampage of Hamas on Oct 7. Palestinians have rejected statehood proposal from Israel because they truly want river to sea- where Israel is erased.
[Time 51:00]; AG Ellison suggests red-light runners receive ticket by postal mail instead of police pursuit that becomes high-speed chase. (1): If the criminal suspect were cooperative, there would be no high-speed chase. (2): Civilians with outstanding warrants or involvement in criminality are more likely to flee so as to avoid arrest. (3): Military background is good training for police because interaction with criminals is conflict-ridden.
[Time 40:00]; Arson at 3rd Precinct Police Station: (1) If “police violence” a true concern, trespassers/arsonists would be afraid of experiencing police violence. The fire added fuel to nationwide outrage “fire”. I believe that was the DEI intent. Regardless- fire the incompetent mayor for allowing gov property to be stolen and destroyed. (2): I suspect that rioters/arsonists got permission from City Hall to proceed with trespass into 3rd Precinct. (3) I want 3rd Precinct trespassers/arsonists arrested. (4) Fire the mayor for treason.
Thank you professors GL/JM and Minnesota Attorney General for your discussion.
[Time 22:00]; (1): If I compare myself to Officer Chauvin, the most harmful thing I could possibly do at my job is to accidentally kill an innocent computer. (2): Years ago, I supervised friends’ 4-10 yr old nephews - who were uncooperative, and dangerous to themselves and others. I told the uncles - “never again”. Police do not have such luxuries as 1 and 2.
(3):Once an officer sees a criminal suspect, he is essentially “glued to” suspect until delivery at a jail cell, even if uncooperative. Expecting no injury when suspect is resisting or fighting police - is illogical.
(4): In “The Fall of Minneapolis”; I didn’t see the other three officers display disapproval or verbally criticize Chauvin at the crime scene. To me, that suggests that Chauvin’s actions were viewed as normal.
(5): Expert testimony on witness stand about proper restraint technique should not be treated as if a retroactive rule while corresponding text in police handbook is vague.
(6): In 2016-ish; Suspect Tony Timpa of Dallas had officer knee on shoulder/neck for 11 minutes and died. Police in different jurisdictions appear to believe such procedure is allowable. This suggests to me that top-down communication is at fault.
(7): Beginning Wednesday April 3, 2024; all police in 100 DEI cities should begin strike. Do not go to work until the DEI-allies (DEI directors, police chief, health chief and mayor) are fired and DEI abolished. You can quote me.
Ellison struck me as fundamentally dishonest, little more than a demagogue. While not a firehose of falsehoods, his firehose of facts, assertions, dodges into historic grievances, self-promoting stories, policy proposals, ad hominem attacks on opponents and free passes for those sympathetic to his views sounded like a stump speech. It did not come over as a good faith attempt to answer tough questions, most of which he dodged. Nor was it a coherent, well-constructed defense of the prosecution of Derek Chauvin. I listened most of the time, so missed many reaction shots, though at one point I caught John looking like someone caught at a dinner party listening to a complete bore of a guest who never shuts up. I appreciate this show in good part because Glenn and John ask tough questions of their guests. In this case they tried and maybe gave up. To be sure, it's tough to ask tough questions of someone who never stops talking, who strings together words in a logic and toward an end known only to himself, who continually overtalks and interrupts. But I was disappointed, and didn't buy the amity at the end. The Fall of Minneapolis may well not have proven the innocence of Derek Chauvin, but it significantly complicated the "racist white cop kills innocent black man" story, and it showed some of the cost of that story to the city of Minneapolis and, by extension, the country as a whole. What I took from Ellison's appearance was a sense that his taking over the Chauvin case may well have been driven by a deep animus. That doesn't mean that Chauvin and his colleagues were not responsible, in whole or in part, for Floyd's death. But it also does not reduce my sense of unease over the conduct of the trial.
Keith Ellison says Chauvin, et al are in part guilty for not starting medical treatment on George Floyd at the scene. Ellison doesn't mention that policy says when it is safe to do so. Ellison also doesn't mention that MFD EMTs didn't start to work on Floyd until they were a number of blocks away from the scene. A scene one witness from the neighborhood called a "hot corner".
Ellison also mentions that holding Floyd's legs contributed to his death. Ellison does not mention that when Chauvin, et al took Floyd out of the squad they put him in the side recovery position. In that position, Floyd delivers a ferocious kick to Lane causing Lane to swear. It is in response to Floyd's actions of resistance that he is moved from the side recovery position.
Did Ellison, before, during or after the interview mention why Dr. Martin Tobin lied on the witness stand?
(1): In “The Fall Of…”, I didn’t see Floyd show sign of respiratory distress.
(2): In March 2024; a judge in SF municipal criminal court awarded probation to a young latino man who viciously stabbed a 94-year old Asian woman (who survived). I guess the defendant followed procedure correctly in the “stabbing humans” handbook. He wore a police ankle-bracelet device at time of attack. Judge said she did not want him to go to prison. DA was pissed. Chauvin accidentally/unwillingly killed uncooperative civilian while doing assigned job - 22yrs prison. Knife Stabber was definitely trying to murder the 94-yr old (unless she were mugging him) and gets probation.
😅You never know who you're sharing a space with until you dive into the comments sections!
It speaks to the range of diversity in thought around here...I guess.
It's not a broad spectrum, but a spectrum nonetheless. We can look at each other's reads and see that. (Subscribers to The Bulwark is about as far left as it gets around here.)
I would love for Glenn and Sussman to do another informal survey (of paid subscribers in particular). i.e., who here self-describes as "right" and why? Who here self-describes as "left" and why? I assume the bird's eye view ratio is at least 4: 1 in favor of the right. But who knows?
And how does that break down? Passionate Trump supporters? Reluctant Trump supporters? NeverTrumpers? Lifelong Dems?
Any self-avowed White nationalists/sympathizers in here? (Not that long ago, there were at least a couple.) Are there any self-avowed Black nationalists?
While we're at it, how about some normal demographic info: age, sex, ethnicity?
You might want to try and logically assess the content of the comments. I suppose in today’s world, folks look for partisan perspective rather than judging if the comment has merit outside a left/right world view
"You might want to try and logically assess the content of the comments"
My suggested survey has nothing to do with whether or not I logically assess the content of the comments. Not sure what prompted your thoughts here.
Fwiw, I do. And did. Been a subscriber for several years, and a survey like the one I suggested would still be interesting.
Looks like you made a comment and it disappeared. Not sure if you took it back or what. But here is a brief answer nonetheless:
Surmising (not declaring) that the ratio of self-described rightists here outweigh others 4 to 1 (and desiring a survey to know for sure) does not mean I do not assess a group of comments logically. (Speaking of logic...)
As for "viewing things through a partisan lens", I never claimed to be pure or neutral, and I'm not sure who here does (Glenn and John included).
And I don't know why that would be a problem for anyone.
Good conversation, thank you Glenn and John.
Ellison's strongest point, to my mind, was about the rash of juvenile motor vehicle thefts. This can't be attributed to single parent homes or any such slow moving factors. School absenteeism does seem like the most important proximate cause, and as he pointed out, even if students are learning very little they are more likely to stay out of trouble.
I also think that he is right to say that people in different communities commit crimes for much the same reasons, though I would emphasize incentives (preemption, retaliation, lack of formal dispute resolution systems when engaged in prohibited transactions, etc) rather than his appeal to bad apples or your general appeal to culture.
On the passion question I think it was a bit unfair to say that he doesn't care much about civilian crime, and the case where he took charge of a prosecution for a particularly heinous offense was an effective rebuttal.
His appeals to the broad sweep of history (slavery, segregation) are surely relevant but these are presented as conversation stoppers rather than the first step in trying to figure out mechanisms and solutions. This was the most frustrating part of the conversation, especially regarding charter schools. He is dogmatic on these (and a few other) issues. But some of your commenters seem to think he has little of value to say about anything, and I think this is not correct.
The lovely tribute at the end where he pointed out that the two of you can converse productively with people who can't have useful conversations with each other was touching.
So, again, thank you.
I am not an economist. Cost is also a factor in youth auto-theft. 2020 “Defund” PR via mayors snd news media signaled to public that law enforcement would be reduced. A personal friend who rides a bike and knew about “Defund” news became more criminal because he knew enforcement rate was reduced. He became less compliant with traffic light signaling when on bike. I suggest the same for youth and car theft.
It's a factor Jon but in this case I don't think a major one compared to social media influence and absenteeism. Young men often underestimate these costs, which have generally been much lower than for adults in any case. If they are doing well in school and have bright prospects the opportunity costs are much greater, but that's not where absenteeism is concentrated. Also, the rash of thefts spans many jurisdictions with different admistrations and policies. But your claim is an empirical one and I don't have strong causal evidence either way.
The Institute for Family Studies issued a report in December that showed a link between crime and family structures:
https://ifstudies.org/reports/stronger-families-safer-streets/2023/executive-summary
They didn't specifically address carjacking and motor vehicle theft. Here's an excerpt:
Executive Summary
This Institute for Family Studies report finds that strong families are associated with less crime in cities across the United States, as well in neighborhoods across Chicago. Specifically, our analyses indicate that the total crime rate in cities with high levels of single parenthood are 48% higher than those with low levels of single parenthood. When it comes to violent crime and homicide, cities with high levels of single parenthood have 118% higher rates of violence and 255% higher rates of homicide. And in Chicago, our analysis of census tract data from the city shows that tracts with high levels of single-parent-headed households face 137% higher total crime rates, 226% higher violent crime rates, and 436% higher homicide rates, compared to tracts with low levels of single parenthood. We also find that poverty, education, and race are linked to city and census-tract level trends in crime. In general, in cities across America, and on the streets of Chicago, this report finds that public safety is greater in communities where the two-parent family is the dominant norm.
As for carjackings and motor vehicle thefts, there are no clear cut answers about what caused the spike. Here are links to a Chicago Tribune piece and a series from the NBC affiliate in St. Louis that touch on some of the possible causes:
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/carjacking-st-louis-chicago-kia-hyundai-court-ymca-dream-builders-equity/63-1644108b-36a0-4505-b13e-188a8d7a7b07
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2021/02/24/op-ed-what-50-young-african-american-men-told-me-about-the-carjacking-problem/
Social media, especially TikTok videos, seems to have catalyzed a fair amount of the spike:
https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/living/story/viral-tiktok-trend-sparks-dramatic-rise-car-thefts-88393419
Some say that criminal justice reforms that were enacted after George Floyd died may have contributed to the spike because the consequences for young carjackers are modest. Some of those reforms are being rolled back in places like Maryland and Washington, D.C.:
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/baltimore-city-faces-surge-in-juveniles-carjackings-as-lawmakers-debate-justice-reform/
https://www.axios.com/local/washington-dc/2024/03/06/crime-bill-passes-dc-council-public-safety
School absenteeism may be playing a role as well, but the AEI report referenced by the NY Times shows that the racial groups with the highest levels of households led by single parents also have the highest levels of absenteeism.
Here's a link for the NY Times article:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/29/us/chronic-absences.html
Here's a link for an AEI report that breaks absenteeism down along several dimensions:
https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/long-covid-for-public-schools-chronic-absenteeism-before-and-after-the-pandemic/
To make a long story short, Keith Ellison's take on carjackings and motor vehicle thefts was less than comprehensive.
Yes it was less than comprehensive, but at least we might be able to get absenteeism and motor vehicle theft to pre-pandemic levels so it's a productive conversation to have, even if we can't do much about family structure in the short run, and can't do anything about the history of segregation etc.
Remote schooling and hybrid schooling, during the covid-19 pandemic, seems to have been a catalyst for increased absenteeism, and it's not clear how long it will take to reverse this. It's often easier to create problems than to fix them. Prominent physicians, such as John Ioannidis and Vinay Prasad, warned that the school lockdowns were likely to create problems whose effects would exist for decades. Monica Gandhi indicates in her book Endemic that enough data were available by August 2020 to know that school lockdowns should not continue. Let's hope that government officials and the media pay more attention to science when the next pandemic arrives. Politicians who push identity politics the hardest were the first ones to throw Black and Hispanic kids under the bus.
https://mcpress.mayoclinic.org/product/endemic/
Yes I agree with this, and part of the problem was an absence of open debate, as discussed here:
https://open.substack.com/pub/rajivsethi/p/the-censorship-trap
The NY Times piece suggested that we may be at a "new normal" in terms of absenteeism. Let's hope that's not the case because the link between absenteeism and academic achievement is strong. Those with doubts should take a look at Figure 12.2 from this NCES analysis:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/raceindicators/indicator_rcc.asp
The public is demanding that something be done about young car thieves and carjackers. Elected officials in DC and Maryland have responded. Similar adjustments are taking place in communities around the country. We'll see soon enough if these policy shifts were helpful.
Absenteeism doesn't happen in a vacuum. Nor is it genetic or an act of Nature. It happens for the same family culture reasons. Family and family culture is the issue, whichever way you look at it.
Looked at another way, there is increasing absenteeism across socio-economic classes and US states (recent NYT piece). Yet, we are not seeing crime and car thefts and general mayhem anywhere else except inner cities.
Of course it doesn't happen in a vacuum, that's why I said *proximate* cause
My point is that we can try to do something about proximate causes, return to pre-pandemic levels of absenteeism and motor vehicle theft, even if we can't do much about family structure in the short run, and can't do anything at all to change our history of slavery and segregation, and this is a productive conversation to have.
Thank you for having Keith Ellison as a guest. A valuable perspective. Could you now have a rebuttal from a capable source? Roland Fryer, etc.?
I would like to see Fryer on the show anyway, but he doesn't seem open to a lot of interviews. (What is that about?) He did a great one with Bari Weiss a month or two ago, but I haven't seen him anywhere since.
I am not so sure Roland would rebut the verdict in the Chauvin case.
Agree. Perhaps Fryer could rebut Ellison's comments about crime and leave the Chauvin rebuttal to someone more familiar with it. After being disappointed by AG Ellison's description of crime in general, I began to doubt his trustworthiness on the specifics of the Chauvin case as well.
"leave the Chauvin rebuttal to someone more familiar with it"
My gut feeling is that Fryer *agrees* with the Chauvin verdict. But I'd love to know for sure.
I’m ready to cancel my $7 a month man. Pathetic. Glenn you didn’t have any qualms, never pushed back, and neither of you know anything about Ellison’s Farrakhan and Antifa ties. Ellison’s a lightweight hollering bland generalities and deflections. God damn I can’t believe you let him snow you. 100%. Oh, and for perspective, I'm a lifelong Dem.
Just remembered, I am anonymous on here, so let me correct that: I am Theodore Olson, author of Hotspvrre Substack, former career St. Paul special education teacher who took on the ruse, “School-to-Prison-Pipeline” of Michelle Alexander, and Black Lives Matter from 2016 through 2018. We talked, Glenn, at St. Olaf in 2018, about the faux-anti-racism industry, and I have told you guys both the millions of dollars of DEI contracts invested in these lies about kids who commit crimes, who kill us and each other while jacking cars. They are barely freshmen in high school. How you could let this Muslim Brotherhood Antifa clown and failed nominated head of the Democratic National Committee snow you is beyond me. That said, I’m done with my subscription. We cannot truck with the coddling of evildoers, and Ellison is Minnesota’s public enemy number one.
I feel this way about Amy Wax. But I never considered leaving this place because...well, life is not so simple.
Glenn and John are still serious thinkers. That hasn't changed. I couldn't disagree with you more. They didn't get "snowed". (In fact, they have come a lot closer to admitting they got snowed by The Fall of Minneapolis.)
Dialogue is fundamental, especially on these topics and in this environment.
I’m here till April 30, and followed them since 2017, Bloggingheads days. Yes they are still serious thinkers. I know the entire gamut of nuanced differences between the gentlemen, to the extent I know how Glenn will react to John and vice versa. I’ve talked with Glenn in person.
The Fall of Minneapolis is not unbiased (I didn’t like its lurid music), but it’s not propaganda, and scored points that mainstream media would not touch with a 10’ pole, for instance the original GF autopsy disappearing once Keith Ellison got at ME Andrew Baker, and the fact ambulance was called immediately and got the wrong address and sat parked half a mile away. Ellison is still thirsty to uphold the wrongful convictions of Lane, Kueng, and Thao.
There are many things Fall of Mpls got right. Glenn should not have turned 180* and refuted it. That’s weak.
Also, I live here and work with mentally ill patients on the street where GF went down. My bonafides’ roots go back to my own name trashed by psychotic local BLMers in 2016 which cost me my teaching career.
There’s much more I could tell you about the backstory to George Floyd.
Interesting.
I have followed McWhorter since he became a public figure. He and I are the same age. I was much more of a "Black conservative" in the 90s and early 2000s--proud of it actually. But now, because of the right's profound devolution, I am a little embarrassed by my past associations even though ironically, I still see myself as philosophically right-of-center. It's weird, but c'est la vie.
I knew about Glenn, even as far back as the 80s, but didn't follow him nearly as much as when he teamed up with John via Bloggingheads.TV. I was hooked fast. I felt like they were me in many ways. I might have their entire podcast collection on old hard drives dating back to pre-Obama'08.
In other words, I know them well, too. I never met them in person, but I know them. And they know me, too, sort of, as a sometimes/oftentimes Bulwarky voice in the comments. But enough about me.
I just cannot take TFOM seriously. No, I haven't seen it, and at this point? I feel like it would be a waste of my time. Chaix and Collin have major credibility issues. I sensed that BEFORE Balko, in my opinion, ripped them a new one, along with Coleman.
But fwiw, you sound like someone who could offer new perspective. I will be the first to admit that the overall state of the right colors my ability to listen to a Rumble or an Alpha News or any of those guys. And I don't see that as my fault. I have seen way too much bs ooze from that camp, especially since Trumpism took over. But as you say, that doesn't impugn everything that comes from that world. Maybe it takes someone like you to build a bridge? At this point, I really don't know, man. It's tough to have a serious dialogue in this environment.
I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I'm not clueless =)
It’s interesting. Thanks for your thoughtfulness, Charles, and not dismissing my POV. We are much more than a moment’s comment in a thread. You’ve been on what looks like quite the journey. Very humanizing. I think we would get along well. I had no clue about these guys prior to 2017. I’m older than John and you, 64. My dad administered the Mpls Health and Welfare Dept in the sixties. Never voted Republican. But like my dad grew jaded with the Panthers, I became jaded with BLM and Antifa. The Dem divisions are epic, and no place runs bluer than Minneapolis. Our guy Humphrey created the Civil Rights Act and Affirmative Action. The Right makes me shake my head at their stupidity. The Left terrifies me because they run everything except the Supreme Court, Silicon Valley, every boardroom and school district and the military. Liz Collin is interesting, former anchor of CBSLocal WCCO-4, a liberal station, driven from her post due to her husband Bob Kroll’s ex-police union leadership. To my understanding she agreed not to cover the police, but then they took her off completely. I was only bothered by her unwillingness to admit that BlackLivesMatter and an elected state rep hung an effigy of her and husband in their front yard and beat it to pieces. That needed saying, and she declined to say it, which weakened her journalistic integrity. But look past that, look past the lurid music, and dramatic lighting, and watch the episode for information you might not have heard before.
Here’s my rationale on leaving Glenn’s Substack: I have fought too long and too hard for the truth regarding unspoken narratives in America to allow myself to get an ulcer over yet another missed opportunity. I was devoted forever, and took this podcast seriously. But I am done being frustrated by Glenn and John’s blind spots. They can’t know about every bad-faith actor who comes on their show, but they did not do their diligence with Keith Ellison, and my chapter, my undying support, needs to end. I need to get over their frailties. They’ve never understood how public schools succumbed to Marxism, holed up as they are in their think tanks and ivory towers, the fertile ground that Black Lives Matter planted into, and how radical activism works with 14, 15, and 16-year-olds, young people who haven’t yet or are never going to enroll at Brown or Columbia. Thanks for engaging with me, Charles. I like your thinking, and I’m glad we’ve found common ground. Cheers, Theo Olson
"Thanks for engaging with me, Charles. I like your thinking, and I’m glad we’ve found common ground."
Likewise, brethren.