Listen now (50 min) | After a month-long hiatus, I’m back with John McWhorter for our first new episode of 2023. John and I actually saw each other during our break, when we both spoke at the Equiano Project’s annual conference hosted at Emmanuel College and King’s College of Cambridge University. It was a fascinating event, full of speakers and attendees of every color who nevertheless question the prevailing orthodoxies on race. John was especially taken by the conference atmosphere, in which he didn’t feel he that he risked giving offense by speaking his mind on race matters.
I'm always struck by the difference between African and African American.
One example I talk about a lot is when I was working at a hospital that had a lot of African immigrant physicians. I was treating a patient for a sickle cell crisis, and I was loading her up with a ton of pain medication; not specifically for race-related reasons but simply because I got into this business to treat pain. My supervisor (an Ethiopian immigrant) was very aggressive about stepping down her medication and getting her out of the hospital.
I later learned that this patient was a relative (niece or something like that) of another doctor at my hospital, and they were both immigrants from somewhere in West Africa, and this doctor was furious with how the patient was being treated. Not just by me; like many sickle cell patients she came back to the hospital regularly. In this doctor's eye, this person had been fine in Africa where they don't have much in the way of opioids for sickle cell patients and most of them just get by with over the counter medications. He essentially thought the American healthcare system was turning his niece into a drug addict. He was trying to send her back to Africa.
Every piece of education I've ever received on sickle cell disease (including an NIH meeting on the subject) is that we're undertreating the pain because of racism, so it was surprising to see actual Africans so vehemently disagreeing with that perspective.
“How do you reach Donna?” Don’t use the word woke as a derogatory, for Donna woke means old school Black resistance, this should be respected. Point to obvious examples of “elect” stupidity that Donna would obviously agree are stupid. For me it was pointing to some schools banning Huckleberry Finn. Donna agrees that banning the book because of a word is ridiculous. She can also see it is not some racist boogeyman of the right that is pulling this stunt. If Donna likes a book, read that book, and have something to say about it. Reading Morrison or Baldwin with her loosens everybody up and shows that we’re above elect conversion tactics. Bringing up that this collective “we” hangs out here at this Substack comes across like those very conversion tactics to the untrained eye. Don’t keep your political affiliations secret, but don’t display them. Be as genuine and sincere as can be, but don’t wear Glenn on a T-shirt for the first date.
I have to say that the Equiano Conference was a singular experience for me. I have gone overseas to do business many times, but this is the first time my intellectual pursuits have landed me beyond American shores, and with such company. It does indeed feel like myths about race we have long endured are being exploded, not just by academic who are explaining the change, but by intelligent youth who are living the change. The extraordinary difference is that young folks from West Africa are leading this, not just the same Old School Americans. And yet JW and GL are remarkable in their actual evolution in bearing and content - never far from revealing knowledge we all need to hear. I'll be completing my reflections soon.
You were hanging out with my people (literally, these are friends I have known for 30 years) at that conference, and I can tell you that many of us came from the left. But we all agree that “left” and “right” are meaningless today, except insofar as it is a barrier to getting ourselves out of this terrible regressive situation we find ourselves in.
1) re: nigerians, many may be igbos and yoruba from the south who resent the de facto affirmative action demanded by the hausa muslims because the latter are numerically prominent and see themselves as natural leaders of the nation. the igbo are often what we'd call 'islamophobic' after the biafra genocide
2) glad you called out the race angle on hamline. it was obvious immediately. if it was some salafi student from turkey they wouldn't have reacted so quickly. but for black women identitarian deference is a massive weapon and they wielded it to good effect (from their perspective)
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Just a few thoughts on this week's episode. Firstly, Prof. Loury, I cannot wait to read your autobiography. Congrats on the momentous accomplishment. Secondly, in regards to victimization and racism comprising the majority of Black Studies Departments, I can only speak for my experience at the College of William and Mary in the late 90's. Since I was an American and Black Studies major, I recall that the majority of my courses in Black Studies did not focus on the victimization and racism narrative. Much of the coursework centered on the unique culture that evolved out of the diaspora, so in some instances (ie African American Material Culture) there was an emphasis on the differences between black Caribbeans and black Americans. However, I did have two instructors, in particular, who readily infused their syllabi with aspects of Critical Race Theory, which was just beginning to filter into the undergraduate curriculum. I remember I waited until my senior year to take my Introduction to Black Studies prerequisite for degree completion, and that instructor, a young black female who had just earned her PhD, was the most ardent in centering oppression as the core of black identity. In particular, there was one day in which she actually defended and even championed black people talking and calling out during a film in a movie theater. This, she explained, was a form of blackness that should be celebrated, regardless of others perceiving it as disruptive behavior. Somehow, it never crossed her mind that members of a certain group should on occasion set aside certain cultural habits when they do not conform with societal norms. In other words to frown on such behavior would be seen as a form of anti-Blackness. Finally, I am glad Prof. McWhorter that you are finally coming around to Kmele Foster's idea of race abolition. I, too, am an advocate of ridding our society of race. One way in which race has always confounded me is through my southern background. I have more in common culturally with many black Americans than I do with say white New Yorkers, and yet, Anti-Racism ideology brandishes me with this flimsy idea of Whiteness and denies me the cultural connection I have with black Southerners. I actually wrote about this on my Substack page in an article about muscadine wine. My Granny, a white woman from the Sandhills of North Carolina readily made muscadine wine. So did Emily Meggett, a black woman from the Lowcountry of South Carolina. This cultural connection between my Granny and Meggett is far more salient to me and who I am than race could ever be. (Not to mention a certain night in Greenville, North Carolina where my best friend and I got plastered on a jug of my Granny's muscadine wine and barely survived the next morning.) What is even more telling and ironical, is that neither Granny nor Ms. Meggett ever drank the wine they produced, strengthening this cultural bond even greater. I seriously doubt Kendi or NHJ can claim to have such a connection with Ms Emily Meggett, let alone even know what muscadine wine is, and yet, Anti-Racism orthodoxy dictates their shared black skin as the unquestionable de facto attribute of Blackness. This not only reinforces the antiquated perceptions of race that gave rise to White Supremacy but actively severs a sincere bond of two people's shared humanity. Ultimately, this is why I agree with Shelby Steele's assertion that race is fundamentally corrupt and can never be instrumental in anything positive. Hence, notions of black pride, even on a seemingly innocuous positive level like historically black universities and Black History Month, must always contend with questions of race difference and superiority. Ergo, the real "hard work" of combating racism is extracting race from American society, and in my mind, the best way forward is through adopting what many have called the omni-American (though I assume Albert Murray was maybe the first to coin the term.) As an American, I must be willing to take on all aspects of American history and culture. By that token, and this speaks to you Prof. Loury, as an American I should be able to claim aspects of what historically has been identified as black culture. Just as you are part of the Western tradition, I, too, am part of slavery, Jim Crow, the pride of Hampton University, the rhetoric of Stokely Carmichael, the love supreme of Coltrane, and dare I say, the anti-semitism of Kanye West. Ultimately, what this means is that as citizens, we are all in this together. While I am fervently anti-Woke, I do more damage to the collective spirit of this nation if I am actively trying to censor Kendi rather than engage with his views and express why I disagree with him (which is what you two gentlemen have done beautifully.) To put it bluntly, as Americans we need to grow up. The concept of race exists in lower order thinking or as Prof. McWhorter states on a "fourth grade" level. Weaning our nation from our addiction to race will be arduous, but in the long run, engender a much healthier and enigmatic society.
Excellent episode to begin our new year with our favorite commentators on race. A sense of entitlement comes to mind when they speak about the black mothers and fathers of yesterday who built Black America. They paid the price for their great grandchildren. Now this young generation chases money, power and status, through the grievance industry. It's equivalent to a wealthy child living in a mansion, but comparing his rough life of playing virtual video games with friends overseas, to his great grandparents who built his large home with their bare hands. Oh how burden we are!!
But like I have said before--It's part of black identity. The race and culture is seen through a different lens because of the many culture barons of politics, business, entertainment, academia and journalism. And so the war continues.
I welcome my fellow subscribers to challenge my opinion.
Very interesting... Congratulations Prof Loury on completing your memoir, can't wait to read it!
I'm always struck by the difference between African and African American.
One example I talk about a lot is when I was working at a hospital that had a lot of African immigrant physicians. I was treating a patient for a sickle cell crisis, and I was loading her up with a ton of pain medication; not specifically for race-related reasons but simply because I got into this business to treat pain. My supervisor (an Ethiopian immigrant) was very aggressive about stepping down her medication and getting her out of the hospital.
I later learned that this patient was a relative (niece or something like that) of another doctor at my hospital, and they were both immigrants from somewhere in West Africa, and this doctor was furious with how the patient was being treated. Not just by me; like many sickle cell patients she came back to the hospital regularly. In this doctor's eye, this person had been fine in Africa where they don't have much in the way of opioids for sickle cell patients and most of them just get by with over the counter medications. He essentially thought the American healthcare system was turning his niece into a drug addict. He was trying to send her back to Africa.
Every piece of education I've ever received on sickle cell disease (including an NIH meeting on the subject) is that we're undertreating the pain because of racism, so it was surprising to see actual Africans so vehemently disagreeing with that perspective.
And of Course a great one from Glenn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVw9qMxdMN8 I hope that all the complete sessions from the conference are uploaded.
Great Speech by John McWhorter from the conference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_mPqxJxJQ
But I have to add... from what I have seen from John....
would he be speaking this way in front of a less receptive audience?
“How do you reach Donna?” Don’t use the word woke as a derogatory, for Donna woke means old school Black resistance, this should be respected. Point to obvious examples of “elect” stupidity that Donna would obviously agree are stupid. For me it was pointing to some schools banning Huckleberry Finn. Donna agrees that banning the book because of a word is ridiculous. She can also see it is not some racist boogeyman of the right that is pulling this stunt. If Donna likes a book, read that book, and have something to say about it. Reading Morrison or Baldwin with her loosens everybody up and shows that we’re above elect conversion tactics. Bringing up that this collective “we” hangs out here at this Substack comes across like those very conversion tactics to the untrained eye. Don’t keep your political affiliations secret, but don’t display them. Be as genuine and sincere as can be, but don’t wear Glenn on a T-shirt for the first date.
What is the world coming to?
"Al Sharpton urges black lawmakers to crack down on serial criminals, assist prosecutors in cases"
https://nypost.com/2023/01/23/al-sharpton-urges-black-lawmakers-to-crack-down-on-serial-criminals/
Is it time to throw in the towel on progressive DAs and criminal justice reform?
I have to say that the Equiano Conference was a singular experience for me. I have gone overseas to do business many times, but this is the first time my intellectual pursuits have landed me beyond American shores, and with such company. It does indeed feel like myths about race we have long endured are being exploded, not just by academic who are explaining the change, but by intelligent youth who are living the change. The extraordinary difference is that young folks from West Africa are leading this, not just the same Old School Americans. And yet JW and GL are remarkable in their actual evolution in bearing and content - never far from revealing knowledge we all need to hear. I'll be completing my reflections soon.
This is an interesting take on the Hamline incident: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2023/01/a-tale-of-two-muslim-generations
Glad to have you both back. I believe that I could listen to the two of you discuss just about any topic. Looking forward to your book, Mr. Loury.
You were hanging out with my people (literally, these are friends I have known for 30 years) at that conference, and I can tell you that many of us came from the left. But we all agree that “left” and “right” are meaningless today, except insofar as it is a barrier to getting ourselves out of this terrible regressive situation we find ourselves in.
1) re: nigerians, many may be igbos and yoruba from the south who resent the de facto affirmative action demanded by the hausa muslims because the latter are numerically prominent and see themselves as natural leaders of the nation. the igbo are often what we'd call 'islamophobic' after the biafra genocide
2) glad you called out the race angle on hamline. it was obvious immediately. if it was some salafi student from turkey they wouldn't have reacted so quickly. but for black women identitarian deference is a massive weapon and they wielded it to good effect (from their perspective)
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Just a few thoughts on this week's episode. Firstly, Prof. Loury, I cannot wait to read your autobiography. Congrats on the momentous accomplishment. Secondly, in regards to victimization and racism comprising the majority of Black Studies Departments, I can only speak for my experience at the College of William and Mary in the late 90's. Since I was an American and Black Studies major, I recall that the majority of my courses in Black Studies did not focus on the victimization and racism narrative. Much of the coursework centered on the unique culture that evolved out of the diaspora, so in some instances (ie African American Material Culture) there was an emphasis on the differences between black Caribbeans and black Americans. However, I did have two instructors, in particular, who readily infused their syllabi with aspects of Critical Race Theory, which was just beginning to filter into the undergraduate curriculum. I remember I waited until my senior year to take my Introduction to Black Studies prerequisite for degree completion, and that instructor, a young black female who had just earned her PhD, was the most ardent in centering oppression as the core of black identity. In particular, there was one day in which she actually defended and even championed black people talking and calling out during a film in a movie theater. This, she explained, was a form of blackness that should be celebrated, regardless of others perceiving it as disruptive behavior. Somehow, it never crossed her mind that members of a certain group should on occasion set aside certain cultural habits when they do not conform with societal norms. In other words to frown on such behavior would be seen as a form of anti-Blackness. Finally, I am glad Prof. McWhorter that you are finally coming around to Kmele Foster's idea of race abolition. I, too, am an advocate of ridding our society of race. One way in which race has always confounded me is through my southern background. I have more in common culturally with many black Americans than I do with say white New Yorkers, and yet, Anti-Racism ideology brandishes me with this flimsy idea of Whiteness and denies me the cultural connection I have with black Southerners. I actually wrote about this on my Substack page in an article about muscadine wine. My Granny, a white woman from the Sandhills of North Carolina readily made muscadine wine. So did Emily Meggett, a black woman from the Lowcountry of South Carolina. This cultural connection between my Granny and Meggett is far more salient to me and who I am than race could ever be. (Not to mention a certain night in Greenville, North Carolina where my best friend and I got plastered on a jug of my Granny's muscadine wine and barely survived the next morning.) What is even more telling and ironical, is that neither Granny nor Ms. Meggett ever drank the wine they produced, strengthening this cultural bond even greater. I seriously doubt Kendi or NHJ can claim to have such a connection with Ms Emily Meggett, let alone even know what muscadine wine is, and yet, Anti-Racism orthodoxy dictates their shared black skin as the unquestionable de facto attribute of Blackness. This not only reinforces the antiquated perceptions of race that gave rise to White Supremacy but actively severs a sincere bond of two people's shared humanity. Ultimately, this is why I agree with Shelby Steele's assertion that race is fundamentally corrupt and can never be instrumental in anything positive. Hence, notions of black pride, even on a seemingly innocuous positive level like historically black universities and Black History Month, must always contend with questions of race difference and superiority. Ergo, the real "hard work" of combating racism is extracting race from American society, and in my mind, the best way forward is through adopting what many have called the omni-American (though I assume Albert Murray was maybe the first to coin the term.) As an American, I must be willing to take on all aspects of American history and culture. By that token, and this speaks to you Prof. Loury, as an American I should be able to claim aspects of what historically has been identified as black culture. Just as you are part of the Western tradition, I, too, am part of slavery, Jim Crow, the pride of Hampton University, the rhetoric of Stokely Carmichael, the love supreme of Coltrane, and dare I say, the anti-semitism of Kanye West. Ultimately, what this means is that as citizens, we are all in this together. While I am fervently anti-Woke, I do more damage to the collective spirit of this nation if I am actively trying to censor Kendi rather than engage with his views and express why I disagree with him (which is what you two gentlemen have done beautifully.) To put it bluntly, as Americans we need to grow up. The concept of race exists in lower order thinking or as Prof. McWhorter states on a "fourth grade" level. Weaning our nation from our addiction to race will be arduous, but in the long run, engender a much healthier and enigmatic society.
I think you need to have a session on the concept of “race”. I recently published a short piece on this in Peace Magazine, which refers to your own earlier podcast. https://web.ncf.ca/fs766/Collins_Race_PeaceMagazineJan2023.pdf
Excellent episode to begin our new year with our favorite commentators on race. A sense of entitlement comes to mind when they speak about the black mothers and fathers of yesterday who built Black America. They paid the price for their great grandchildren. Now this young generation chases money, power and status, through the grievance industry. It's equivalent to a wealthy child living in a mansion, but comparing his rough life of playing virtual video games with friends overseas, to his great grandparents who built his large home with their bare hands. Oh how burden we are!!
But like I have said before--It's part of black identity. The race and culture is seen through a different lens because of the many culture barons of politics, business, entertainment, academia and journalism. And so the war continues.
I welcome my fellow subscribers to challenge my opinion.