Excellent conversation, and many good points made. If I may offer an observation... George W. Bush went to Yale when a better student without the funds and influence could have or should have been able to go in his place. That said, IMHO ivy-league universities are over-rated and may teach snobbery as much as the good things they teach. I've experienced this first-hand years ago, when spending time around students from upper-class families who were attending Harvard, Brown, Yale, et. al. Smug, mediocre, selfish young people, sorry to say, not all, but most. Of course, no offense to Glenn and John's ivy-league university posts -- but they'd have exceptional minds and personalities wherever they taught.
Good conversation. The one drop rule is subjective. There are people who take it seriously, and others who don't. It also complicates things for people who are mulatto or biracial. They can end up having an identity crises, because they want to feel connected to black culture. They want to feel connected to the group. John mentioned Michelle Obama and Justice Jackson. They identify with racist incidents or issues. That seems to be the best way to connect with a certain group of blacks these days.
I am not sure if Glenn will see this, but he mentioned an interest in history. Particularly the French Revolution if I recall correctly. Since he is retiring, I highly recommend learning about something in history and then physically visiting that location. While I have a good career in banking, this has become my main passion and what I think about everyday.
I haven't studied the French Revolution closely, but below were topics I really enjoyed and explored further:
Eastern Roman (or Byzantine) History
I was curious about history right after the Roman Empire collapse, or what I learned to be the Western Roman Empire Collapse. I stumbled across the book, Lost to the West: The Forgotten Byzantine Empire that Rescued Western Civilization by Lars Brownworth. This led me to watch online lectures by Professor Freedman at Yale through Youtube and then Kenneth Harl at Tulane through The Great Courses. I got so much into the history of Antiquity and Medieval period that I booked a cruise through Oceania cruise lines and did a tour of the Mediterranean from Barcelona to Istanbul (visiting many locations along with way). My favorite thing to tour was the Hagia Sophia. Because of all my research ahead of time, I ended up answering questions the tour guides didn't know and physically saw many of the locations I read about over the course of several years.
Kenneth Harl also covered the Ottoman period and touched on Napoleon's invasion of Egypt. That prompted me to visit the British Museum in London and see the Rosetta Stone in person.
American Civil War
Growing up on the border between WV and VA prompted me to learn more about the American Civil War. I'd say that and many of the political issues in this nation. So, I ended up listening to lectures from Gary Gallagher from UVA. I also started doing deep dives in Virginia Tech archives regarding the region where I grew up. Now living in Florida, I booked a flight to DC and toured many of the battle locations in the surrounding areas (Manassas, Gettysburg, etc.). I also toured Ft. Sumter in South Carolina and Ft. Pulaski in Georgia. My favorite was Harpers Ferry, WV. It was the site of John Brown's raid and was highly contested during the Civil War. It is also the location of Storer College, a historically Black college established shortly after the Civil War. The college closed in the 1950s, but the town has a gift shop where you can purchase Storer College attire as if it was still operating. Nearby Charles Town (founded by the brother of George Washington) has a brewery known as Abolitionist Ale Works, themed after John Brown (but also references an armed revolt by Coal Miners at Blair Mountain in WV).
All of this is to say that reading about history is one thing, but learning it and then visiting those locations brings everything to a whole new level!
Just because of simple demographics, way more white students aren’t selected at the “elites”. Do their lives go to hell?
Do we have enough data with only the first post-POTUS enrollment report to know the cause? Is this a blip or a permanent trend? What could we study and write about with a larger database and some inferential statistics?
I’m curious about the perception that Blacks perceive racism when it does not exist. JD Vance said that since Haitian immigrants arrived in Springfield, Ohio residents had their pets abducted and eaten by Haitians. Is that racist or normal political banter?
Many years ago I took an interest in Glenn Loury and then discovered John McWhorter. I started out despising John and just tolerating Glenn. The qualia of my experience of life, I was born and bred in central Africa, as was my father, and sentiments 180% different from modern African-American mentality. I engaged in listening to these men and I seethed in frustration, disappointment and scorn. Over time, my mentality turned into acceptence and then respect and admiration. John's TDS and irresponsibile utterances almost turned me off entirely, however, he apologised to this audience. I admired Glenn's loyality to his friend and this influenced my attitude towards John. I don't think we could ever be friends, they are trapped by their qualia and me by mine. Having said that, it is almost impossible not to like, respect and admire Glenn Loury and John McWhorter as men. Gee, I've come a long way.
You are awesome Glenn. You don't know me, but I'm a paying subscriber, long time Chicagoan, non-native of Chicago, though I moved to Houston 4 years ago. I think of you as a friend and mentor, which is what great professors are to their students. That won't change an iota with your pending retirement. You are awesome now, and will remain equally awesome in your next phase.
I might say I found "joy" in how Glenn and John worked the one-drop rule. Whether it makes sense or perhaps how it makes and also doesn't make sense these days. But it wasn't so much about joy as it was "about time." Several years ago, I pushed a parallel conversation by "interrogating" myself (I and the Other). So much normality when one leaves the blinders off.
Glenn and John are obviously free to express their opinions regarding race. That does not negate the multiple studies that point out racial bias in fields like medicine. Despite equal economic status and insurance, Blacks ften receive a lower level of state of the art medical care.
People who do observe the bias are changing guidelines that resulted in Blcks having less access to renal transplants, for example.
Glenn and John’s experience are their valid experiences. It does not mean that they are not obvious to certain situations.
I have a question about this one-drop rule. It has been my understanding that in Thomas Jefferson’s Virginia a mixed race person was consider ed white if they were less than 1/8 black. Hence the children of Sally Hemings were legally white, though they were also legally slaves since their mother was a slave. So am I wrong about the law in Virginia at that time? And if I am right, when did the one drop rule begin at least in Virginia?
On a related note, there is a movie based on a novel about misogyny (I think by Robert Penn Warren) in which a woman who thought she was white crossed the Ohio river into Kentucky where she was taken and sold into slavery ending up in New Orleans. Clark Gable played the man who bought her and a young Sidney Poitier played a slave whom the Gable character had rescued as a baby in Africa and brought up as his son.
Affirmative action for all might work at places like Harvard and Yale. By that I mean student bodies that reflect the shares of all races, ethnicities, and regional origins of the American population as a whole. Would pass the Supreme Court, I think, as a way to created an elite class that reflects the racial, ethnic, and regional diversity of America. Isn't it only when you have affirmative action for some that the problem of equality under the law arises?
Glenn looks like the weight loss regime is working............looking good.
Glenn don't procrastinate too long on what you want to do in retirement. None of us are guaranteed good health forever.
Poor Claudine Grey...............gimme a break John.
Glenn after a lifetime of working with high achievers in high achieving environments volunteer work can drive you batshit crazy.
Chris Rufo has done a lot more than expose a few serial plagiarizers.
Maybe there's a gender factor involved with Senna, Brown and Obama kvetching about discrimination vs the experience of John and Thomas Chatterton Williams.
1:08:05 So he's a dude playin' a dude disguised as another dude? https://youtu.be/Eu0Vucn7xww?si=WpQJkWmp6PXogt5g
BTW, the Revolutions podcast is also an excellent way to learn about several revolutions, including those in France. https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/
Excellent conversation, and many good points made. If I may offer an observation... George W. Bush went to Yale when a better student without the funds and influence could have or should have been able to go in his place. That said, IMHO ivy-league universities are over-rated and may teach snobbery as much as the good things they teach. I've experienced this first-hand years ago, when spending time around students from upper-class families who were attending Harvard, Brown, Yale, et. al. Smug, mediocre, selfish young people, sorry to say, not all, but most. Of course, no offense to Glenn and John's ivy-league university posts -- but they'd have exceptional minds and personalities wherever they taught.
Good conversation. The one drop rule is subjective. There are people who take it seriously, and others who don't. It also complicates things for people who are mulatto or biracial. They can end up having an identity crises, because they want to feel connected to black culture. They want to feel connected to the group. John mentioned Michelle Obama and Justice Jackson. They identify with racist incidents or issues. That seems to be the best way to connect with a certain group of blacks these days.
Anyone agree or disagree??
my kids, age 12, 10, 7 say the same things re race that john's daughter did.
I am not sure if Glenn will see this, but he mentioned an interest in history. Particularly the French Revolution if I recall correctly. Since he is retiring, I highly recommend learning about something in history and then physically visiting that location. While I have a good career in banking, this has become my main passion and what I think about everyday.
I haven't studied the French Revolution closely, but below were topics I really enjoyed and explored further:
Eastern Roman (or Byzantine) History
I was curious about history right after the Roman Empire collapse, or what I learned to be the Western Roman Empire Collapse. I stumbled across the book, Lost to the West: The Forgotten Byzantine Empire that Rescued Western Civilization by Lars Brownworth. This led me to watch online lectures by Professor Freedman at Yale through Youtube and then Kenneth Harl at Tulane through The Great Courses. I got so much into the history of Antiquity and Medieval period that I booked a cruise through Oceania cruise lines and did a tour of the Mediterranean from Barcelona to Istanbul (visiting many locations along with way). My favorite thing to tour was the Hagia Sophia. Because of all my research ahead of time, I ended up answering questions the tour guides didn't know and physically saw many of the locations I read about over the course of several years.
Kenneth Harl also covered the Ottoman period and touched on Napoleon's invasion of Egypt. That prompted me to visit the British Museum in London and see the Rosetta Stone in person.
American Civil War
Growing up on the border between WV and VA prompted me to learn more about the American Civil War. I'd say that and many of the political issues in this nation. So, I ended up listening to lectures from Gary Gallagher from UVA. I also started doing deep dives in Virginia Tech archives regarding the region where I grew up. Now living in Florida, I booked a flight to DC and toured many of the battle locations in the surrounding areas (Manassas, Gettysburg, etc.). I also toured Ft. Sumter in South Carolina and Ft. Pulaski in Georgia. My favorite was Harpers Ferry, WV. It was the site of John Brown's raid and was highly contested during the Civil War. It is also the location of Storer College, a historically Black college established shortly after the Civil War. The college closed in the 1950s, but the town has a gift shop where you can purchase Storer College attire as if it was still operating. Nearby Charles Town (founded by the brother of George Washington) has a brewery known as Abolitionist Ale Works, themed after John Brown (but also references an armed revolt by Coal Miners at Blair Mountain in WV).
All of this is to say that reading about history is one thing, but learning it and then visiting those locations brings everything to a whole new level!
Just because of simple demographics, way more white students aren’t selected at the “elites”. Do their lives go to hell?
Do we have enough data with only the first post-POTUS enrollment report to know the cause? Is this a blip or a permanent trend? What could we study and write about with a larger database and some inferential statistics?
I’m curious about the perception that Blacks perceive racism when it does not exist. JD Vance said that since Haitian immigrants arrived in Springfield, Ohio residents had their pets abducted and eaten by Haitians. Is that racist or normal political banter?
https://apple.news/A0_QTZUiTTm6qrVupMzOQtA
If nothing else, it is weird.
Many years ago I took an interest in Glenn Loury and then discovered John McWhorter. I started out despising John and just tolerating Glenn. The qualia of my experience of life, I was born and bred in central Africa, as was my father, and sentiments 180% different from modern African-American mentality. I engaged in listening to these men and I seethed in frustration, disappointment and scorn. Over time, my mentality turned into acceptence and then respect and admiration. John's TDS and irresponsibile utterances almost turned me off entirely, however, he apologised to this audience. I admired Glenn's loyality to his friend and this influenced my attitude towards John. I don't think we could ever be friends, they are trapped by their qualia and me by mine. Having said that, it is almost impossible not to like, respect and admire Glenn Loury and John McWhorter as men. Gee, I've come a long way.
You are awesome Glenn. You don't know me, but I'm a paying subscriber, long time Chicagoan, non-native of Chicago, though I moved to Houston 4 years ago. I think of you as a friend and mentor, which is what great professors are to their students. That won't change an iota with your pending retirement. You are awesome now, and will remain equally awesome in your next phase.
I might say I found "joy" in how Glenn and John worked the one-drop rule. Whether it makes sense or perhaps how it makes and also doesn't make sense these days. But it wasn't so much about joy as it was "about time." Several years ago, I pushed a parallel conversation by "interrogating" myself (I and the Other). So much normality when one leaves the blinders off.
Glenn and John are obviously free to express their opinions regarding race. That does not negate the multiple studies that point out racial bias in fields like medicine. Despite equal economic status and insurance, Blacks ften receive a lower level of state of the art medical care.
People who do observe the bias are changing guidelines that resulted in Blcks having less access to renal transplants, for example.
Glenn and John’s experience are their valid experiences. It does not mean that they are not obvious to certain situations.
Implicit bias has been noted in multiple studies.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2201180
Medical guidelines are under review because of findings of racial bias.
https://apple.news/AbFJCF8d6TPOLH2lF7TGvZQ
A Black professor of emergency medicine notes her experience at NYU.
https://www.aamc.org/news/racism-medicine-and-one-doctor-s-quest-combat-it
Individual experience is one thing. Taking a broader view can help expose the bigger picture
I have a question about this one-drop rule. It has been my understanding that in Thomas Jefferson’s Virginia a mixed race person was consider ed white if they were less than 1/8 black. Hence the children of Sally Hemings were legally white, though they were also legally slaves since their mother was a slave. So am I wrong about the law in Virginia at that time? And if I am right, when did the one drop rule begin at least in Virginia?
On a related note, there is a movie based on a novel about misogyny (I think by Robert Penn Warren) in which a woman who thought she was white crossed the Ohio river into Kentucky where she was taken and sold into slavery ending up in New Orleans. Clark Gable played the man who bought her and a young Sidney Poitier played a slave whom the Gable character had rescued as a baby in Africa and brought up as his son.
Affirmative action for all might work at places like Harvard and Yale. By that I mean student bodies that reflect the shares of all races, ethnicities, and regional origins of the American population as a whole. Would pass the Supreme Court, I think, as a way to created an elite class that reflects the racial, ethnic, and regional diversity of America. Isn't it only when you have affirmative action for some that the problem of equality under the law arises?
Good discussion.
Glenn looks like the weight loss regime is working............looking good.
Glenn don't procrastinate too long on what you want to do in retirement. None of us are guaranteed good health forever.
Poor Claudine Grey...............gimme a break John.
Glenn after a lifetime of working with high achievers in high achieving environments volunteer work can drive you batshit crazy.
Chris Rufo has done a lot more than expose a few serial plagiarizers.
Maybe there's a gender factor involved with Senna, Brown and Obama kvetching about discrimination vs the experience of John and Thomas Chatterton Williams.
I hope you both will be going to see the Am I Racist? film and I look forward to hearing your reactions.