John McWhorter is back, just like you knew he would be. This week we’re talking about the future of affirmative action. We begin by discussing Steven Spielberg and Tony Kushner’s new film adaptation of the classic musical West Side Story. John argues that people who dismiss the musical as just
To the extent that there is elitism going on here, it’s in that your discussions so often revolve around who makes it to the very top of the field, rather than who makes up the field as a whole. Academia has a distorted (relative to outside academia) view of the value of publication and reputation. For the rest of us, success comes from being merely competent and playing well with others.
I love you guys, but you're wrong on this one. You don't sound like right-wingers, you sound like academics. If you want to win this argument, step out of the sandbox.
I appreciate that you both are brilliant scholars at the top of your field with many citations and fond memories of the rarified experiences of being in graduate school. But this isn't 19th century Germany, elite education in the United States is not primarily about preparing people for PhDs. Some of these students stay in academia, 99% do not. Elite university education is primarily the mechanism through which elite hierarchies are established and reinforced, social capital is preserved or gained, leadership skills and credentials are accumulated. The universities are looking for people who will be of high impact on the world in positions across society, not just academic research. Certainly these will and should include many people of color.
Most professors don't think of themselves primarily as gatekeepers to elite access to all levels of society - after all, nearly everyone there took the same exact off-ramp to graduate school because they love their field. But if you look around at the buildings, these Universities resemble nothing so much as vast European aristocratic estates and castles. Would Princeton be Princeton without the gothic architecture and manicured grass? The British are comfortable with the role that Oxford and Cambridge play in their society; they don't pretend it's all about the research. With this broader utility in mind, one might be more open to policies which actively uplift people who don't already come from elite background.
Finally, these universities have always let in a certain double digit percentage of their students for reasons other than sheer academic achievement (legacies, almost entirely white) - because, again, it's always been about more than sheer academic achievement at these places. Hamilton Cabot Thayer III doesn't mind that he got in with a little help, he's happy to be there because these are tickets to the world, not just graduate school. I think that makes the case for affirmative action, through the lens of social capital development, defensible. If we wait on the entire primary school system to catch up, we're waiting too long.
Perhaps John McWhorter's children could go and study at a European university instead? If there is a crisis in American higher education, then why not go abroad? America is not the world and it sounds like they would get a better education elsewhere.
Please, please, please make the transcripts of your conversations available online! Or in book form. Your conversations—in this episode especially the last half—need scarcely any editing. As someone who’s rather plodding and tongue-tied when it comes to public speaking, it always amazes me that human beings can be so eloquent on the fly. Both Glenn’s and John’s closing remarks were so good I had to go back and write down what was said little by little so I could get it right.
A note about excellence. Not everybody can be the best of the best, and that's ok. I got my BA in business economics, then my CPA, and MBA. I didn't go on further with economics because the math was too hard for me.
My sister likewise dropped out of the PHD economics program with a masters pass. We've both went on to plenty of success. I'm head of finance at a mid sized company, she's at a similar level doing research.
If you don't get into Ivy League, who cares. You're life will still be just fine. Just do your best. Don't lower standards because some can't make it.
There is a grown beginning to emanate from the soul of America and one day if we all can figure out how to yell in unison it will be too deafening to be ignored...
Yes there are plenty of people in the art world who say, “this is too white.” They come from art schools, and not the for profit kind that most of the black kids go to either. It’s a pose, these people are saying hail Victoria really badly in the middle of WWI after the queen has been dead for almost 20 years. You can read them, or you can read my poem The Five Stages and weep. We’re onto something new.
Gents, the weather induced "blues" that you are both suffering can be resolved by getting the heck out of the northeast during January and February. I could recommend Scottsdale Az, perfect weather lots of birds and wildlife, excellent wifi and plenty of activities to keep you busy.
As far as your depression concerning losing on AA, all I can say is elections have consequences. Maybe you should consider rethinking your voting criteria.
I would suggest that you have a conversation with Bryan Stevenson on your show. He was just on Jon Stewart, and the places you have common ground and differences of opinion are actually really fertile ground for a really good conversation.
I agree with Dr. McWhorter's view that the "meme" that equates whiteness with education, learning, academic success might have originated in the 70s when schools were desegregated, sometimes by busing, and black students were not exactly welcomed by many white students/teachers, and often treated badly. He posits that as a result of this bad experience, black students got completely alienated from school and so-called "white" success. I was a white student at such schools in the late 60s and early 70s. It was indeed a pretty awful scene, and I doubt anyone who lived through it will ever forget it. At the time I didn't think about how such poor treatment might turn someone very sour on school and "white" endorsed academic achievement. But it makes sense. And yes, that was a very unfortunate "lesson," that persists. Dr. McWhorter's insight might explain an exchange with a fellow student (black woman) at our local junior college a few years later. We were chatting amiably after class one day, and I asked her something like, how did you get interested in nursing (or teaching or whatever it was she was studying). Suddenly she just kinda turned on me, and said something like "YOU people want me to go to college, you're giving me the money, but I don't care about it," and she laughed. I was taken aback, and I had no idea what to say. She seemed so scornful. I never forgot it.
Another great conversation, despite the atmosphere of sadness and resignation. Take heart, gentlemen: Good signs are in the air as well - even in this godforsaken month of February. Consider, for example, San Francisco's recent recall of three school board members. Even in the most liberal parts of the country, there is a point at which people will say, overwhelmingly, "enough is enough".
On the other hand, the "end run around affirmative action" is even worse than Glenn indicated. It's not merely that colleges are ceasing to require the SAT. Some - including the entire University of California system - are no longer even *accepting* SAT scores.
Still, Spring is coming. While waiting for it, I'll read Steven Rhoades's book, a copy of which I ordered last night. (Thanks for the tip, Glenn. I enjoyed that episode, too.)
I’m certainly not the most scholarly which I’m sure is obvious in my comments..however, I was a damn good D1 athlete. If an athlete on the field wasn’t on the field because they were THE best at their position they would be “punished” by teammates. IE Michael Jordan did this perfectly on the court and towards his teammates. This is in every social agency in our country. Testing and try outs are part of life..education and sports.
I was deeply moved by your words and demeanor. Please continue your important work together and know that there are many of us who are supporting you in this vital undertaking.
So, uhhh... any theories on the mysterious unnamed professor to which John is referring?
To the extent that there is elitism going on here, it’s in that your discussions so often revolve around who makes it to the very top of the field, rather than who makes up the field as a whole. Academia has a distorted (relative to outside academia) view of the value of publication and reputation. For the rest of us, success comes from being merely competent and playing well with others.
I love you guys, but you're wrong on this one. You don't sound like right-wingers, you sound like academics. If you want to win this argument, step out of the sandbox.
I appreciate that you both are brilliant scholars at the top of your field with many citations and fond memories of the rarified experiences of being in graduate school. But this isn't 19th century Germany, elite education in the United States is not primarily about preparing people for PhDs. Some of these students stay in academia, 99% do not. Elite university education is primarily the mechanism through which elite hierarchies are established and reinforced, social capital is preserved or gained, leadership skills and credentials are accumulated. The universities are looking for people who will be of high impact on the world in positions across society, not just academic research. Certainly these will and should include many people of color.
Most professors don't think of themselves primarily as gatekeepers to elite access to all levels of society - after all, nearly everyone there took the same exact off-ramp to graduate school because they love their field. But if you look around at the buildings, these Universities resemble nothing so much as vast European aristocratic estates and castles. Would Princeton be Princeton without the gothic architecture and manicured grass? The British are comfortable with the role that Oxford and Cambridge play in their society; they don't pretend it's all about the research. With this broader utility in mind, one might be more open to policies which actively uplift people who don't already come from elite background.
Finally, these universities have always let in a certain double digit percentage of their students for reasons other than sheer academic achievement (legacies, almost entirely white) - because, again, it's always been about more than sheer academic achievement at these places. Hamilton Cabot Thayer III doesn't mind that he got in with a little help, he's happy to be there because these are tickets to the world, not just graduate school. I think that makes the case for affirmative action, through the lens of social capital development, defensible. If we wait on the entire primary school system to catch up, we're waiting too long.
Perhaps John McWhorter's children could go and study at a European university instead? If there is a crisis in American higher education, then why not go abroad? America is not the world and it sounds like they would get a better education elsewhere.
Please, please, please make the transcripts of your conversations available online! Or in book form. Your conversations—in this episode especially the last half—need scarcely any editing. As someone who’s rather plodding and tongue-tied when it comes to public speaking, it always amazes me that human beings can be so eloquent on the fly. Both Glenn’s and John’s closing remarks were so good I had to go back and write down what was said little by little so I could get it right.
Excellent podcast.
A note about excellence. Not everybody can be the best of the best, and that's ok. I got my BA in business economics, then my CPA, and MBA. I didn't go on further with economics because the math was too hard for me.
My sister likewise dropped out of the PHD economics program with a masters pass. We've both went on to plenty of success. I'm head of finance at a mid sized company, she's at a similar level doing research.
If you don't get into Ivy League, who cares. You're life will still be just fine. Just do your best. Don't lower standards because some can't make it.
Side note, you might end up making more money...
Word.
Down with affirmative action and its descendants: diversity, equity and inclusion!
The DEI movement will disintegrate eventually, the only question is how much damage will they do before this happens.
Thank you Glenn and John.
There is a grown beginning to emanate from the soul of America and one day if we all can figure out how to yell in unison it will be too deafening to be ignored...
Yes there are plenty of people in the art world who say, “this is too white.” They come from art schools, and not the for profit kind that most of the black kids go to either. It’s a pose, these people are saying hail Victoria really badly in the middle of WWI after the queen has been dead for almost 20 years. You can read them, or you can read my poem The Five Stages and weep. We’re onto something new.
Gents, the weather induced "blues" that you are both suffering can be resolved by getting the heck out of the northeast during January and February. I could recommend Scottsdale Az, perfect weather lots of birds and wildlife, excellent wifi and plenty of activities to keep you busy.
As far as your depression concerning losing on AA, all I can say is elections have consequences. Maybe you should consider rethinking your voting criteria.
I would suggest that you have a conversation with Bryan Stevenson on your show. He was just on Jon Stewart, and the places you have common ground and differences of opinion are actually really fertile ground for a really good conversation.
I agree with Dr. McWhorter's view that the "meme" that equates whiteness with education, learning, academic success might have originated in the 70s when schools were desegregated, sometimes by busing, and black students were not exactly welcomed by many white students/teachers, and often treated badly. He posits that as a result of this bad experience, black students got completely alienated from school and so-called "white" success. I was a white student at such schools in the late 60s and early 70s. It was indeed a pretty awful scene, and I doubt anyone who lived through it will ever forget it. At the time I didn't think about how such poor treatment might turn someone very sour on school and "white" endorsed academic achievement. But it makes sense. And yes, that was a very unfortunate "lesson," that persists. Dr. McWhorter's insight might explain an exchange with a fellow student (black woman) at our local junior college a few years later. We were chatting amiably after class one day, and I asked her something like, how did you get interested in nursing (or teaching or whatever it was she was studying). Suddenly she just kinda turned on me, and said something like "YOU people want me to go to college, you're giving me the money, but I don't care about it," and she laughed. I was taken aback, and I had no idea what to say. She seemed so scornful. I never forgot it.
Another great conversation, despite the atmosphere of sadness and resignation. Take heart, gentlemen: Good signs are in the air as well - even in this godforsaken month of February. Consider, for example, San Francisco's recent recall of three school board members. Even in the most liberal parts of the country, there is a point at which people will say, overwhelmingly, "enough is enough".
On the other hand, the "end run around affirmative action" is even worse than Glenn indicated. It's not merely that colleges are ceasing to require the SAT. Some - including the entire University of California system - are no longer even *accepting* SAT scores.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/us/SAT-scores-uc-university-of-california.html
Still, Spring is coming. While waiting for it, I'll read Steven Rhoades's book, a copy of which I ordered last night. (Thanks for the tip, Glenn. I enjoyed that episode, too.)
I’m certainly not the most scholarly which I’m sure is obvious in my comments..however, I was a damn good D1 athlete. If an athlete on the field wasn’t on the field because they were THE best at their position they would be “punished” by teammates. IE Michael Jordan did this perfectly on the court and towards his teammates. This is in every social agency in our country. Testing and try outs are part of life..education and sports.
Competition is healthy.
I was deeply moved by your words and demeanor. Please continue your important work together and know that there are many of us who are supporting you in this vital undertaking.