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Lhfry's avatar

This episode put me in mind of Myron Magnet’s book: the Dream and the Nightmare; the legacy of the 1960s to the underclass. Summary below from Amazon. If whites want to assume guilt for the current condition of the Omar’s, I would say this where it lies. It had effect on all disadvantaged groups. The children of the white upper class of the time had the resources to rely on when their rebellion caused them harm. Those without these advantages, no matter their race though it was worse for blacks, did not escape. McWhorter made this point.

Myron Magnet’s The Dream and the Nightmare argues that the radical transformation of American culture that took place in the 1960s brought today’s underclass–overwhelmingly urban, dismayingly minority–into existence. Lifestyle experimentation among the white middle class produced often catastrophic changes in attitudes toward marriage and parenting, the work ethic and dependency in those at the bottom of the social ladder, and closed down their exits to the middle class.

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Lhfry's avatar

Read the book

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Rhonda West's avatar

Tucker’s text and how it’s “taken,” is a reflection of each of our own personal perception. We read his text as WE think. Which is why texting can be tricky. There’s a reason that text was singled out, John stated the reason clearly. If one text determines a person’s character so help us all. What’s really sad, I am guessing John has never watched Tucker or he would have never said he’s racist; another so help us all. The guest before, said it best. A society who ignores factual information is a society which will fail. Black people fight different as do Hispanics. Grew up with them both. Unless you fight J. Sparks the skinny quiet white dude who never started a fight but week after week beat the brains of every hispanic upon return of school suspension, as they each had their go at him. No gang fighting there, they didn’t want any of J. This was in 1985 .. it was NO secret the styles of fighting for each group .. white, blacks and Hispanics all different. ITS FACT!! So here is what I heard from John .. stating facts about black violence is ok for black people to say, but hush it if you’re white, or you’re racist. Back ‘er on up John, you continually speak the same as those who you speak out against and you both do it re: Trump.

Tucker was NOT fired, he’s still under contract and will win a big ole lawsuit against Fox for releasing private text while still an employee which was his stipulation for giving the info to Fox in the Dominion case. Fox canceled his show, kept him on contract and released private video and text in an attempt to bait him to speak out first against his contract while they dragged his release negotiations out. They released info, kept him under contract to effectively keep him from defending the released info. Nope he wasn’t fired they had a plan and I hope they pay mightily for it.

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Thunderlips's avatar

The Tucker "racism" case sounds like an instance of guilty of being white. What he said so closely echoes what is spoken, usually by Glenn, but also sometimes John, during these biweekly conversations.

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Shehrose Mian's avatar

It struck me today that Omar's presumed fatherlessness may be exacerbated by the sheer size of the USA (which makes child abandonment all the more possible). Could indeed the USA be too large for especially politically liberal families (those seeking independent lives)? I would wager that grandparents who successfully raise an Omar would hold conservative religious views that keep them residing in one spot for the sake of family unity.

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Razib Khan's avatar

hope you guys know that omar is hated by the shia muslims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_view_of_Umar

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William Saalfeld's avatar

Great episode and conversation.

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Birtaud Abraham's avatar

My family comes from the Caribbean. I started out in private grade school until the fourth grade. Within that school were kids who came from working class homes and those families were mostly European and Latin descent. I was used to that type of culture, or environment.

Then I transferred to an innercity public school and struggled to make the adjustment to the new culture. I was surrounded by kids who looked like me, but I could not relate to them that much. I was not from their world.

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Amy's avatar

That makes sense. Maybe we have this in common: I found so many (white, in my case) subcultures that I have nothing in common with that is hard for me to understand some sort of universalized white racial identity. Thank you for clarifying for me. I appreciate it.

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Birtaud Abraham's avatar

Yes. It has cost me community. I don't relate to black culture that much because of how subjective it is. Being a nerd is not something that is celebrated with the culture. So I feel out place when I'm around certain people.

I spend much of my time alone, but I'm very selective with who I socialize with.

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Robert Redd's avatar

Just noted an error in my post. Obviously I meant Misty Copeland.

I was unaware of this young woman. I don’t watch that much TV. Victory Brinker was 9-years old at the time of the video. Apparently, she is developing quite an operatic career despite her tender age

https://youtu.be/vrRfBmMWpLY

Edit to add:

There is also a television show about Le Chevalier De Saint-Georges a classical composer

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12758486/

The Black Mozart: Le Chevalier De Saint-Georges, is a book about the Chevalier

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Black_Mozart.html

Black culture, to me, is so expansive that, again, so sorry that you feel somewhat isolated. I enjoy wine tastings and initially felt isolated, but quickly found other Black people who also enjoy learning aspects about the huge variety of different grapes. There is an organization that helps bring you into contact with Black winemakers. I met a large number of Black South African winemakers at an international event in January.

Here’s hoping you make some contacts. If you don’t, simply enjoy the friends who enjoy the same things you do. Do you.

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Amy's avatar

I am sorry to hear that. I wonder why that is. Even my most sexist uncle, who once chastised my dad for sending me to college because I’d just end up “barefoot and pregnant”, was proud that I went to good school and did well and studied engineering and made myself a comfortable life. (He did chastise me for “giving his daughter ideas” though. He raised four kids and none even thought of going to college).

Do you think your interests were being policed or just that you didn’t have much in common with your peers? Does that make sense? Because it seems that would be a significantly different experience.

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Robert Redd's avatar

This is interesting because I come into contact with people who enjoy Classical music, ballet etc. Missy Copeland, for example, encourages to pursue ballet. The great Grace Bumbry just recently passed. She also encouraged enjoyment of opera. The Smithsonian has a project reintroducing people to Blacks in Classical music.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/black-classical-music-composers-180976924/

I’m so sorry that you feel so isolated. Are you in a small town? There are generally groups that bring Blacks who love the classics together whether it be literature, music, or dance. “Black culture” covers a wide territory. Obviously, there is no need for you specifically find Blacks who share your interests, but it does seem that you feel you have lost community.

On a lighter note, I don’t get most rap.

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Amy's avatar

Glenn, I understand you have strong feelings about unchecked immigration. I was surprised at the assertion that borders are open under democrats, so I did a little internet search. Cato Institute, seems unlikely to give the democrats an unearned W, so here you go: https://www.cato.org/blog/deportation-rates-historical-perspective

Given that info, I’m unclear what the basis of your assertion is…?

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Marty Holloway's avatar

The number of deportations will naturally be higher when illegal immigration is higher. This year we are setting records for the number of border encounters; all evidence points to record numbers of illegal entrants. We are probably setting records for illegal entrants as well. Biden could deport half of them and set simultaneous records for most deportations and most illegal entrants.

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Amy's avatar

Of course! In the link, “Figure 1 Removals as a Percentage of the Estimated Illegal Immigrant Population” shows that percent is higher under democratic presidents. I think that contradicts the democrats have/support/want/like open borders. That’s all.

Given the turmoil and drought in many countries in central and South America it’s not really surprising that there is so much migration. I’m pretty sure the reason I live here is because my ancestors fled their own countries’ famine/war/oppression/poverty, etc. I have my own concerns about the impacts of mass immigration, but I’m pretty sure the party of the president is not the driver of the problem.

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Marty Holloway's avatar

Hi Amy-

Protecting the border is not a Biden administration priority in the least. Period. Here's a PBS article from June of 2021 with the following quote:

"“The administration is making Democrats look weak,” said Texas Democratic Rep. Henry Cuellar in an interview with The Associated Press. “I’ve heard, from Democrats and Republicans in my area, what the heck is going on with this administration?”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-live-harris-speaks-during-visit-to-u-s-mexico-border

Harris saying that she wants to address "root causes" is her fiddling while the border is already on fire.

A few weeks into his Presidency Biden was advocating a path to citizenship for eleven million illegal immigrants already here:

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/539336-biden-pushes-expanded-pathways-to-citizenship-as-immigration-bill/

That's one hell of an incentive for people to flow north.

Certainly the illegal immigrants and their advocates saw the shift. Here's a March 2021 article about immigrants wearing "Biden, Please let Us In" T-shirts.

https://www.businessinsider.com/migrants-wear-biden-let-us-in-shirts-us-mexico-border-2021-3

Sanctuary cities and states are almost if not exclusively run by Democrats.

Flash forward to today:

Senator Sinema of Arizona: “What’s frustrating for those of us who serve in Congress, and for those of us who represent border states, is [the Biden administration’s] failure to prepare for the end of Title 42,” she said. “A willful failure to prepare for the end of Title 42 means that my state bears the brunt of the crisis that is coming.”

"Willful" is the word she uses.

The Democratic mayor of El Paso is busing immigrants north. CA Governor Gavin Newsom just said he needs more support from the Federal government from the immigrant detention centers on his border. (Note that one motivating factor is that CA's deficit ballooned by $10 billion dollars.)

Observe the shift in the language:

"Illegal Alien" became "Illegal Immigrant" (replacing a legal term with a layman's term)

"Illegal Immigrant" became "Immigrant" (conflating legal and illegal immigration and putting people opposed to immigration on the defensive)

And then the big one:

"Immigrant" became "Migrant" Immigration occurs from outside a country. Migration occurs within a country or is temporary. The Okies were migrants. Calling people crossing our border and plan to live here forever "migrants" is a deliberate twisting of the English language.

"This time it's different" is often wrong, but this time it is different.

Finally, as to my position: I'm 100% for legal immigration in greater numbers, from unskilled to highly skilled. Immigration is an act of hope. But it can't be a chaotic process where the best odds of staying the US comprise of sneaking across the border and skipping your immigration hearing if you somehow get caught.

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Amy's avatar

So, not that it’s the most important point here, but I always learned a migrant is a person who leaves a place for a new place and an immigrant refers the person joining a new place. So new Americans would be immigrants, but Guatemalans fleeing Guatemala would be migrants, until they settle some place. In any event, that’s the way I use the word. Like refugees, in theory, migrants just want out of their bad situations. I share your frustration with the language changes. It does feel like that it done so no one knows what anyone else is talking about.

Sanctuary cities is a term like that. My understanding is that it means that an immigrant, regardless of legal standing, can report crimes committed and otherwise be a member of a community without police automatically reporting them to ICE. It was meant to be a pragmatic way for local governments to maintain law and order. I don’t think it was intended as an invitation. In fact it seems a lot of illegal immigrants work in rural areas doing low paid agricultural and factory (like meat processing) jobs- going where there is work not favorable policing.

Well, I have no reason to disagree with you on Biden’s priorities. I don’t live near a border, so it impacts me much less. Not that I don’t care, it just isn’t *my* priority either, if I’m being honest. And you are free to disagree with me, but I think people are in fact migrating because the deteriorating conditions of their home countries and *not* because of American politics. There are lots of jobs and low unemployment, I’d guess that is a bigger driver than border policy. Honestly, my main reason for thinking this is that I’m not sure I believe that poor undereducated people who don’t speak English or understand the workings of the American government (as indeed most Americans do not) are making their decisions based on the border policies of the moment. Now, I also realize that is not a solution and acknowledge it is an important issue. I just find rhetoric about blaming democrats to be profoundly unhelpful.

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Jon Hepworth's avatar

On what shaped Omar?: In psychology, Locus of Control (LOC) refers to your perception that your life is controlled by you or by a force external to you, (others, a system, etc.) Those who perceive a more inner location of control are able to see more opportunities for self-development. We in behavioral health were supposed to assist adolescent development at the societal level- but we were sleeping on the job.

I also want to blame the schools for grievance indoctrination. My sister’s child attended middle school in 2000 in conservative Central Florida. History instruction seemed to come from a “radical liberation front.”

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Jamal X's avatar

Yan, Uncle Tom was actually the hero. He covertly looked after his people. You need to closely read the following:

The Symbolic Betrayal of the Black Race: In his book, “Black Labor White Wealth”, Dr. Claude Anderson relates," the term Uncle Tom is not an appropriate label for an individual who is “white on the inside and black on the outside” and sells out his race by placing his personal gains with whites ahead of the rights and gains of his people. Contrary to popular usage of the label, the character Tom was not the culprit in Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Uncle Tom was a brave man with dignity who cared about his family and race. The real villain was another black slave named Sambo. He was totally committed to the white master and used every opportunity to undermine the other slaves.Sambo, in many respects, was like today’s black conservatives. Sambo always followed the white slave master, Simon Legree, and offered to show him how to “tree the coons.” It was black Sambo who beat Uncle to death for both refusing to whip a black female slave or sell out his people. Uncle Tom tried to empower his people by undermining and beating the social structure whenever he could. Uncle Tom felt it was important to get his people across the river to freedom. He risked his life to do so. The Sambo character personifies a very successful social control construct created by conservatives. He was such a successful phenomenon that the concept he personified became a greater danger to blacks than Uncle Tom. As blacks move towards structuring policies of racial accountability, it will be very important for them to know who helps and who hurts the race. Sambo was the black slave character in numerous novels and movies who was willing to pick up a weapon and defend his white master against the approaching Union army or hide the master’s silver from Northern carpetbaggers. What is the difference between the fictional Sambo characters and today’s real-life blacks who join the conservative movement to argue against affirmative action, black reparations, and set-asides? They declare that the world is now color blind and are opposed to any policies requiring whites to share the socioeconomic burden that centuries of slavery and second class citizenship have imposed on blacks. Isn’t espousing a color blind, race-neutral, melting pot society, a moderate way of hiding master’s silver? What are black conservatives conserving when black America is burdened by poverty, crime, unemployment, homelessness, and other social pathologies? Based upon historical treatment alone, there should be a general antagonism between blacks and conservatives. Though conservatives claim that they are not racist, for centuries, they have opposed programs and policies to help blacks. Andrew Hacker, a white writer, provided insight on this in his new book, Two Nations: Black and White, Separate, Hostile, and Unequal. Hacker asserted that: “There persists the belief that members of the black race represent an inferior strain of the human species…Of course, the belief is seldom voiced in public. Most whites who call themselves conservatives hold this view about blacks and proclaim it when they are sure of their company. Since white conservatives share their true feelings only in the privacy of other whites, there is a strong possibility that black conservatives do not know how white conservatives truly feel about them.”

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Paul Johnson's avatar

What Tucker said about the nature of way white people fight was not necessarily in contrast to only blacks, as John believes. He may have also had Middle Easterners in mind, too. It was probably a comment about those who embrace the values of the West, and those who do not. In any case, it was a private comment.

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Grow Some Labia's avatar

One thought on the plethora of jobs for black man John referenced toward the end - I hear the same complaints now from manufacturers, small business owners etc. (I'm a freelance sales agent working on a lot of sales campaigns so I talk to a lotta different people) who have jobs, but claim 'people don't want to work' anymore. The pay isn't high enough. The pay *does* look pretty shabby compared to the skyrocketing cost of living, and wages haven't kept pace with that for decades. (Whoever you are, however much you make, you're probably not making nearly as much as you might have). Might that have been the case in the '60s and '70s? Or do you think the folks today who can't find anyone are right, that no one 'wants to work' anymore?

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Dale Lipe's avatar

LETS GET OUR FACTS CORRECT PLEASE: Tucker Carlson did not say "that's not how white people fight" on television, he said it in a text to a close acquaintance, it was not a"public comment"

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Grow Some Labia's avatar

Tucker Carlson may be many things, but a witch he ain't. 'Witches' aren't guilty of what they're accused of. Carlson is a professional, demonstrable liar and the list of racist, misogynist, xenophobic, gynophobic, homophobic, arachnophobic, arachnohomophobic, Iraqarachnohomophobic, etc. things he's said could fill whole phone books. That was the only truly bizarre rant I've ever heard you utter, Glenn, and I've heard plenty. That was just....weird.

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Jamal X's avatar

What are the childhood traumas that correlate to you having negative feelings for Black people? Black boys beat you up and took your lunch money? Uncle Billy Bob got too intimate, which continues to have you irrationally acting out passive-aggressively.

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