On this edition of TGS, John McWhorter is back for one of our twice-monthly conversations. We take a long, critical look at the concept of "systemic racism"—what it is, what it isn't, and why it's become so popular in progressive discourses about race in the US.
Potential Topic: The US economy and slavery. While this wouldn’t necessarily be something for you and John, it would be interesting to hear you discuss some of the issues related to the often-cited view that the US economy became prosperous based on unpaid labor from slavery. The conclusion makes sense and seems obvious. The writings of Edward Baptist (The Half Has Never Been Told) are often cited to defend this position. Yet, I have seen some reviews by Stanley Engerman and a set of scholars in Roundtable of Reviews, that question some of Baptist’s methods and conclusions. Deirdre McCloskey also objects to the view that slavery explains what she calls the 'great enrichment.' Part of the problem for those of us not trained in economics is the challenge of understanding the debate in terms of what the data can and cannot tell us. It may be that you know someone to bring on the Glenn Show to discuss these issues with.
While it underpins the liberal project, one can argue that it also undermines it. Individualistic tendencies on the right seem to manifest mostly in the form of economic libertarianism (hostility toward if not outright opposition to unions & social safety nets and support for deregulation) but also (at least in the US) extend to opposition to any form of gun control, and now, vaccine mandates. On the left, these tendencies manifest in the form of social libertarianism that deems one’s use of one’s own body as having no bearing on the collective or no impact on the broader culture. Some of the ways this plays out in the political sphere are as commitments to abortion-on-demand, legalization of prostitution and all drugs, a laissez-faire approach towards pornography, and now the assertion that one’s sexed body shouldn’t be the basis for determining whether one should be able to access single-sex facilities or single-sex public spaces. Concurrent with political commitments such as these is a cultural ethos (one that while perhaps no longer exclusive to the left, has its origins in left-leaning intellectual circles) that seems to hold that commitments or obligations to others should be subordinate to the pursuit of personal desire or fulfillment. It’s ironic that while the left is especially preoccupied with societal oppression, there is often an under-appreciation of if not outright obliviousness to (or denial of) how legalizing and/or normalizing various kinds of “sin” often exacerbates exploitation and oppression, especially among the most marginalized populations.
While many find it sappy, the film “It’s a Wonderful Life” seemed to offer a rebuke to the notion that living for oneself is what makes for a good life. I’m hard pressed to think of another massively popular film or cultural work made in the 70+ years since “It a Wonderful Life” that conveys a similar message, and I’d be curious to know if you think that is because our cultural elites have been unable or unwilling to produce similar fare or because they have tried to test the market and didn’t find enough buyers. What we’ve seen in that time since is messaging on the right along the lines of “If you’re so stupid as to make bad decisions that worsen your already sad life, that’s all on you, so don’t complain” and on the left, “Whatever bad decisions you’ve made aren’t really your fault because systemic problems (racism, sexism, etc) are why you’re not really responsible for anything.” In other words, the right grossly overestimates the power that any individual has in the face a larger societal pressures, and as a consequence often fails to acknowledge the necessity of proper social supports, while the left grossly underestimates individual agency and personal responsibility and seeks to widen the scope of governmental power, which, past a certain point, can undermine individual agency and create dependency.
Given that our media and political elites are incentivized to politicize and exacerbate these tendencies, how do we counter them and what institutions need to form (or be reformed) in order to stabilize society so that current trends don’t spiral out of control?
And what do you make of the proposition that, individualism, the genius of the liberal project, will be its undoing?
New topic suggestion: I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new race to conflate or even replace the concept of sex with gender identity. While elevating the rights and dignities of transgender individuals is commendable in its intent, the practice of privileging gender-identity over sex is playing out in a very concerning way in jails, prisons, domestic violence shelters, spas in which women traditionally have reserved the right (or perhaps expected the social norm) to exclude males. I work in a jail in a major city on the west coast and am seeing more and more men (with expected male presentation both in appearance and behavior) self-identifying right into the female units in accordance with a policy that allows no one, not even health professionals, to challenge their claims.
Please reference Georgia State University professor Callie Burt's paper published in Feminist Criminology:
Scrutinizing the Equality Act 2019: A Feminist Examination of Definitional Changes and Sociological Ramifications
John, what do you think of the bizarre move by the Biden Administration to replace the word "mother" in favor of the gender-neutral word "birthing people". When did motherhood become controversial, exclusive, and worth eliminating from our vernacular?
Glenn & John, suggestion for a topic of disagreement: Why was the 2020 Presidential Election even closer than 2016, electorally-speaking, given that we expierenced an impeachment, a deadly pandemic, a severe recession, and George Floyd, etc. during that election year, in which voter turnout was literally at a 120-year high? I suspect the independent/center right economist and the liberal Democratic linguist may interpret the results differently. Thanks!
Very sorry for your loss, Glenn. I am also the only one left of the five who lived together in the house in which I grew up. Nobody else knows, or can know, what it was to be THERE in that family, at that time. So many beautiful rooms in my soul are now uninhabited, gray and empty. My childhood memories feel now like the sound of one hand clapping. Etc. But it was my honor to know them like no one else ever did, and I have many valuable lessons and lovely memories for the experience. I hope that you can find some comfort, some treasure, in your own.
What do you think of the term “white supremacy”? I was in a discussion this week in which a nice lady introduced herself as someone who teaches about “white supremacy”. And I got to wondering about that term. I was thinking about Isabel Wilkerson’s book Caste. I do think there is something to caste, but the only reason I think there could be is that I’ve seen it go away in the context of living overseas as a teen, where we were suddenly just Americans — and very depressingly come back when we went home.
I also wondered if you have read Elisabeth Lasch Quinn’s The Race Experts? The reason I ask is because She writes about how the civil Rights movement was psychologized. Which I mention because it seem to me that both Caste and White Supremacy have become psychologized.
Glenn, something about you man--a beautiful soul. Glenn will speak in his Jolly way, and it really lights me up. There's a lot of heart in him. Condolences to you Glenn, and best wishes to you John, whatever it might be that's riding on you. - a long time student and fan
"Systemic Racism" is the luminiferous aether of the social "science" world. Ill-defined, unfalsifiable, invoked when all acceptable alternatives are exhausted. "Scholars" in the fields where this term is used will rightly never be taken seriously as their more rigorous counterparts in academia until they expunge primitive theorizing like this from their "research".
Of course a couple of guys like you are going to get sick of talking about the same things happening month after month--maybe even if more of the events were positive.
I love the idea of your regularly talking about your real work, at least for part of the show.
I'd also like to hear both of your opinions on your own experiences with Christianity, and the best and worst things about its role in history. Why not?
Idea for topics and guests (some of these our on race topics, but not systematic racism)
Topics:
1. War on Drugs including the legalization of hard drugs
2. Book club: Glenn and John talk once every two months about a book they both read and debate it.
3. Talk about their academic careers: Both Glenn and John talk about the major topics they studied during their academic careers and the other asks questions as a non-expert in the field. So many of us found the Glenn show because we looked him up on Youtube after hearing him talk about linguistics.
4. The state of media
5. Education Reform
Guest Ideas (and of course most of the person I suggest would likely be very difficult to get, but they would theoretically be interesting)
1. I second the Michael Shellenberger suggestion as a guest for the show. I read his most recent book and he is a contrarian environmentalist.
2. Krystal Ball--Glenn and John mentioned a few episodes ago that the progressive left doesn't push back harder. Krystal Ball is the co-host, of what is most weeks the number one political podcast in the country and she is progressive and anti-woke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxgUQ4ZVlUA&t=3s
3. Chimmanda Ngozi Adichie (I probably flubbed her name)--One of my top two or three favorite fiction writers. Have read three of our novels and each was really impressive. Her novel Americanah was one of the most thoughtful novels on race in America I read. Maybe this could be an episode where Glenn and John both talk to her about novels (they would have to read them first--the last episode with Lara Bazelon showed how interesting those conversations can get.
4. David Simon--Not going to happen, but would be a good discussion. As John is a big fan of David Simon he would have to be involved in the episode.
6. Jemele Hill: Former Sportscenter anchor who has a reputation for being woke, but who impressed me with her thoughtfulness on a podcast about The Wire.
7. Sage Steele: Current Sportscenter anchor, and notable for being fairly conservative at the fairly woke ESPN. Had her feelings hurt when the other black people at ESPN did not want her to join a project to produce a special on race in America. Her father was a colonel in the U.S. Army and one of the first black football players at Army. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkuunfXiDIM
8. Bill Bryson: An author of a lot of interesting books. Like John McWhorter he has wrote so many books, that a good percentage of the audience will have read at least one.
9. Stephen Brill: Wrote a lot of very informative books on policy issues like education reform (Class Warfare), healthcare (America's Bitter Pill), the advantages class bestows in a world governed by meritocracy (Tailspin). He also has older books on interesting subjects like the Teamsters and all the corruption and mob connections they had and things like who killed Jimmy Hoffa.
10. Monty Williams: Not going to happen as he is probably really in demand as the Head Coach of a NBA team that made the finals, but his speech at the funeral of his wife who was killed by a white woman high on meth (Monty also had three children in the car though they all survived) was one of the more inspiring speeches I have seen with its humility and concern for the woman who was the driver of the other car (she died too)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVtUB-bUFMg
A topic I would like to hear you talk about is the impact of migration.
I think there are two different aspects.
1. How did low skill migration the prospects of working class Americans (of all types).
2. What do you think of the impact of high skill migration. I live near Silicon Valley in California and you can't help but notice that over 70% of the workers are south or east Asian on H1B visas (or eventually green cards). I wonder if the fact that the work force here comes from all over explains the indifference of the tech tycoons to reforming California's horrible schools since they don't expect to get their workers from here anyway.
In response to a comment someone mentioned that Ghana is a reasonably successful country in Africa. I think a good guest would be someone who could discuss Black African economics and cultural issues and successes. I understand there are some very impoverished countries that are badly managed and have little resources since we see them frequently on TV, but there must be others. I should be better educated about Africa on my own.
I join the others in sending my sympathy to Glenn, and I wish John better days as well.
There have been some very good suggestions made by other commenters for discussion topics other than racism. But the topic I thought of where you two might disagree was this counterfactual: Would Trump have won in 2020 if it weren't for his handling of covid, and would American democracy have survived four more years of him as president?
It would be interesting to hear you you guys discuss religion
3:00 Ah yes the Kafka trap. You admit it's true and your complicit or you deny it and you complicit.
Potential Topic: The US economy and slavery. While this wouldn’t necessarily be something for you and John, it would be interesting to hear you discuss some of the issues related to the often-cited view that the US economy became prosperous based on unpaid labor from slavery. The conclusion makes sense and seems obvious. The writings of Edward Baptist (The Half Has Never Been Told) are often cited to defend this position. Yet, I have seen some reviews by Stanley Engerman and a set of scholars in Roundtable of Reviews, that question some of Baptist’s methods and conclusions. Deirdre McCloskey also objects to the view that slavery explains what she calls the 'great enrichment.' Part of the problem for those of us not trained in economics is the challenge of understanding the debate in terms of what the data can and cannot tell us. It may be that you know someone to bring on the Glenn Show to discuss these issues with.
Topic for discussion: Individualism.
While it underpins the liberal project, one can argue that it also undermines it. Individualistic tendencies on the right seem to manifest mostly in the form of economic libertarianism (hostility toward if not outright opposition to unions & social safety nets and support for deregulation) but also (at least in the US) extend to opposition to any form of gun control, and now, vaccine mandates. On the left, these tendencies manifest in the form of social libertarianism that deems one’s use of one’s own body as having no bearing on the collective or no impact on the broader culture. Some of the ways this plays out in the political sphere are as commitments to abortion-on-demand, legalization of prostitution and all drugs, a laissez-faire approach towards pornography, and now the assertion that one’s sexed body shouldn’t be the basis for determining whether one should be able to access single-sex facilities or single-sex public spaces. Concurrent with political commitments such as these is a cultural ethos (one that while perhaps no longer exclusive to the left, has its origins in left-leaning intellectual circles) that seems to hold that commitments or obligations to others should be subordinate to the pursuit of personal desire or fulfillment. It’s ironic that while the left is especially preoccupied with societal oppression, there is often an under-appreciation of if not outright obliviousness to (or denial of) how legalizing and/or normalizing various kinds of “sin” often exacerbates exploitation and oppression, especially among the most marginalized populations.
While many find it sappy, the film “It’s a Wonderful Life” seemed to offer a rebuke to the notion that living for oneself is what makes for a good life. I’m hard pressed to think of another massively popular film or cultural work made in the 70+ years since “It a Wonderful Life” that conveys a similar message, and I’d be curious to know if you think that is because our cultural elites have been unable or unwilling to produce similar fare or because they have tried to test the market and didn’t find enough buyers. What we’ve seen in that time since is messaging on the right along the lines of “If you’re so stupid as to make bad decisions that worsen your already sad life, that’s all on you, so don’t complain” and on the left, “Whatever bad decisions you’ve made aren’t really your fault because systemic problems (racism, sexism, etc) are why you’re not really responsible for anything.” In other words, the right grossly overestimates the power that any individual has in the face a larger societal pressures, and as a consequence often fails to acknowledge the necessity of proper social supports, while the left grossly underestimates individual agency and personal responsibility and seeks to widen the scope of governmental power, which, past a certain point, can undermine individual agency and create dependency.
Given that our media and political elites are incentivized to politicize and exacerbate these tendencies, how do we counter them and what institutions need to form (or be reformed) in order to stabilize society so that current trends don’t spiral out of control?
And what do you make of the proposition that, individualism, the genius of the liberal project, will be its undoing?
New topic suggestion: I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new race to conflate or even replace the concept of sex with gender identity. While elevating the rights and dignities of transgender individuals is commendable in its intent, the practice of privileging gender-identity over sex is playing out in a very concerning way in jails, prisons, domestic violence shelters, spas in which women traditionally have reserved the right (or perhaps expected the social norm) to exclude males. I work in a jail in a major city on the west coast and am seeing more and more men (with expected male presentation both in appearance and behavior) self-identifying right into the female units in accordance with a policy that allows no one, not even health professionals, to challenge their claims.
Please reference Georgia State University professor Callie Burt's paper published in Feminist Criminology:
Scrutinizing the Equality Act 2019: A Feminist Examination of Definitional Changes and Sociological Ramifications
John, what do you think of the bizarre move by the Biden Administration to replace the word "mother" in favor of the gender-neutral word "birthing people". When did motherhood become controversial, exclusive, and worth eliminating from our vernacular?
https://www.newsweek.com/biden-admin-replaces-mothers-birthing-people-maternal-health-guidance-1598343
As always, thank you both for your thoughtful and candid discourse on the big issues of our time.
Glenn & John, suggestion for a topic of disagreement: Why was the 2020 Presidential Election even closer than 2016, electorally-speaking, given that we expierenced an impeachment, a deadly pandemic, a severe recession, and George Floyd, etc. during that election year, in which voter turnout was literally at a 120-year high? I suspect the independent/center right economist and the liberal Democratic linguist may interpret the results differently. Thanks!
Very sorry for your loss, Glenn. I am also the only one left of the five who lived together in the house in which I grew up. Nobody else knows, or can know, what it was to be THERE in that family, at that time. So many beautiful rooms in my soul are now uninhabited, gray and empty. My childhood memories feel now like the sound of one hand clapping. Etc. But it was my honor to know them like no one else ever did, and I have many valuable lessons and lovely memories for the experience. I hope that you can find some comfort, some treasure, in your own.
What do you think of the term “white supremacy”? I was in a discussion this week in which a nice lady introduced herself as someone who teaches about “white supremacy”. And I got to wondering about that term. I was thinking about Isabel Wilkerson’s book Caste. I do think there is something to caste, but the only reason I think there could be is that I’ve seen it go away in the context of living overseas as a teen, where we were suddenly just Americans — and very depressingly come back when we went home.
I also wondered if you have read Elisabeth Lasch Quinn’s The Race Experts? The reason I ask is because She writes about how the civil Rights movement was psychologized. Which I mention because it seem to me that both Caste and White Supremacy have become psychologized.
Would love to know you views on Davos 2021, the Global Reset, social credit system, stakeholder capitalism, etc.
Glenn, something about you man--a beautiful soul. Glenn will speak in his Jolly way, and it really lights me up. There's a lot of heart in him. Condolences to you Glenn, and best wishes to you John, whatever it might be that's riding on you. - a long time student and fan
"Systemic Racism" is the luminiferous aether of the social "science" world. Ill-defined, unfalsifiable, invoked when all acceptable alternatives are exhausted. "Scholars" in the fields where this term is used will rightly never be taken seriously as their more rigorous counterparts in academia until they expunge primitive theorizing like this from their "research".
Of course a couple of guys like you are going to get sick of talking about the same things happening month after month--maybe even if more of the events were positive.
I love the idea of your regularly talking about your real work, at least for part of the show.
I'd also like to hear both of your opinions on your own experiences with Christianity, and the best and worst things about its role in history. Why not?
Idea for topics and guests (some of these our on race topics, but not systematic racism)
Topics:
1. War on Drugs including the legalization of hard drugs
2. Book club: Glenn and John talk once every two months about a book they both read and debate it.
3. Talk about their academic careers: Both Glenn and John talk about the major topics they studied during their academic careers and the other asks questions as a non-expert in the field. So many of us found the Glenn show because we looked him up on Youtube after hearing him talk about linguistics.
4. The state of media
5. Education Reform
Guest Ideas (and of course most of the person I suggest would likely be very difficult to get, but they would theoretically be interesting)
1. I second the Michael Shellenberger suggestion as a guest for the show. I read his most recent book and he is a contrarian environmentalist.
2. Krystal Ball--Glenn and John mentioned a few episodes ago that the progressive left doesn't push back harder. Krystal Ball is the co-host, of what is most weeks the number one political podcast in the country and she is progressive and anti-woke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxgUQ4ZVlUA&t=3s
3. Chimmanda Ngozi Adichie (I probably flubbed her name)--One of my top two or three favorite fiction writers. Have read three of our novels and each was really impressive. Her novel Americanah was one of the most thoughtful novels on race in America I read. Maybe this could be an episode where Glenn and John both talk to her about novels (they would have to read them first--the last episode with Lara Bazelon showed how interesting those conversations can get.
4. David Simon--Not going to happen, but would be a good discussion. As John is a big fan of David Simon he would have to be involved in the episode.
5. Bertrand Cooper: Wrote an article about how the black middle class controls black popular culture despite very often using the experiences of poor blacks in their themes. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/who-actually-gets-to-create-black-pop-culture
6. Jemele Hill: Former Sportscenter anchor who has a reputation for being woke, but who impressed me with her thoughtfulness on a podcast about The Wire.
7. Sage Steele: Current Sportscenter anchor, and notable for being fairly conservative at the fairly woke ESPN. Had her feelings hurt when the other black people at ESPN did not want her to join a project to produce a special on race in America. Her father was a colonel in the U.S. Army and one of the first black football players at Army. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkuunfXiDIM
8. Bill Bryson: An author of a lot of interesting books. Like John McWhorter he has wrote so many books, that a good percentage of the audience will have read at least one.
9. Stephen Brill: Wrote a lot of very informative books on policy issues like education reform (Class Warfare), healthcare (America's Bitter Pill), the advantages class bestows in a world governed by meritocracy (Tailspin). He also has older books on interesting subjects like the Teamsters and all the corruption and mob connections they had and things like who killed Jimmy Hoffa.
10. Monty Williams: Not going to happen as he is probably really in demand as the Head Coach of a NBA team that made the finals, but his speech at the funeral of his wife who was killed by a white woman high on meth (Monty also had three children in the car though they all survived) was one of the more inspiring speeches I have seen with its humility and concern for the woman who was the driver of the other car (she died too)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVtUB-bUFMg
A topic I would like to hear you talk about is the impact of migration.
I think there are two different aspects.
1. How did low skill migration the prospects of working class Americans (of all types).
2. What do you think of the impact of high skill migration. I live near Silicon Valley in California and you can't help but notice that over 70% of the workers are south or east Asian on H1B visas (or eventually green cards). I wonder if the fact that the work force here comes from all over explains the indifference of the tech tycoons to reforming California's horrible schools since they don't expect to get their workers from here anyway.
In response to a comment someone mentioned that Ghana is a reasonably successful country in Africa. I think a good guest would be someone who could discuss Black African economics and cultural issues and successes. I understand there are some very impoverished countries that are badly managed and have little resources since we see them frequently on TV, but there must be others. I should be better educated about Africa on my own.
I join the others in sending my sympathy to Glenn, and I wish John better days as well.
There have been some very good suggestions made by other commenters for discussion topics other than racism. But the topic I thought of where you two might disagree was this counterfactual: Would Trump have won in 2020 if it weren't for his handling of covid, and would American democracy have survived four more years of him as president?