John and I are back again for one of our twice-monthly tête-à-têtes, our final conversation before the semester begins and we’re once again immersed in campus life. John is soaking up the last of the summer in his Catskills bungalow, and I’m here in Providence. I hope you’re all enjoying the long Labor Day weekend, spending some time with friends and family, and, of course, carving out an hour to dig into this TGS episode.
Super, super late but a) the email is in a state of disrepair from which it may never recover and b) today I finished John Ernest's "Liberation Historiography". The Colored Conventions Project is excused for having recommended this book since he took their subject very seriously but the actual texts he has to work with may not quite reach up to his ideas. A chapter discussed autobiography/slave narrative as history. Part of the reason that no one took slave narratives seriously as history until the 1970s is that the content of these narratives quickly devolved into conventional lists of what the white antislavery audience wanted to see and some of them are literally "as told to" a white person. (Twelve Years A Slave is an "as told to".) Garrison wrote an introduction to Frederick Douglass's first Narrative (1845) in which the text is treated as mostly a gloss on Garrison's ideas and Douglass could not talk about his resentment at performing for Garrison until My Bondage and My Freedom 10 years later. So a Black person can tell a Black person's story but the Black person may need to use some cleverness for that story to transcend the packaging necessary for a white gatekeeper to be interested in it and be meaningful in the Black public sphere. The issue may not be a sanitized Harriet Tubman as we have seen many sanitized MLKs over the years but whether the meaning in the statue is all on the surface.
Let’s put this flat out. President Trump supported states would have actually fought tooth and nail up to the Supreme Court showing evidence of fraud and any evidence they found.
It didn’t happen though!
So we are left with two scenarios then. Either the election wasn’t stolen in such a way to have hard evidence. Or if it was and even the 100% controlled by Republican Government States didn’t do their jobs to bring it to light.
If the latter is true, and you wholeheartedly believe that. The fact you are not in the streets taking your country back by any means necessary marks you as a coward, and not a true American.
Around 45 minutes, I was disappointed with John's response to Glenn's foray into the criminal prosecution of Trump. At least as I perceived it, Glenn wasn't asking "was the election stolen?", rather "Should Trump be prosecuted for his actions?". You don't have to defend Trump to question the criminal prosecution.
Going back to Comey's re-definition of mishandling of classified material in 2016, it seems the precedent has been "be careful about criminal charges that may influence an election".
I have liberal friends who quite literally wish bad things for Trump. Given the history of the "resistance starts now", even they are concerned about the apparent weaponization of the DOJ (and state and local) in going after Trump (while slow-walking Biden investigations). I think that's the serious question to discuss.
Beautiful statue. If it was okay for an Italian film director to make westerns, Miles Davis to use Spanish classical music as the basis for his Sketches of Spain, a black composer to write music for a film NOT about black people, Shakespeare to write about emperors or young lovers in Italy then it really doesn't matter. as human being no aspect of humanity should be foreign to us. If we were to embrace this racial nonsense then forget employing anyone of a different race on a project that does not "concern" them.
Hi Glenn, John, I admire you both more than I can describe in a few short words. I agree with both of you on almost every issue, and on almost every detail on every issues (of course naturally some minor differences), but I have to ask: why would it be unreasonable for well-informed and intelligent people to believe the 2020 election was suspect? Not that you have to (or anyone has to) agree of course, but that people beyond Fox News viewers (I am not), "right wing activists" (I am not), but middle-of-the-road mostly non-partisans who just got an "icky" feeling after watching what happened several years ago, and dug into literature (on both sides) and came to the conclusion something was wrong?
I will stipulate for a moment that there was no fraud (I personally believe there was, and that there always is some, but that it was bigger and more organized than usual in 2020). Forget for a moment - ballots materializing from under tables, on film, in GA after the polling office was closed; forget about universal mail in ballots in NV where several precincts had more votes than voters; forget about illegal drop boxes In Milwaukee and Madison WI, or that the WI state-run election committees and poll offices were replaced by privately funded left-leaning partisan organizations; forget that counting stopped almost simultaneously in 6 states (where Trump was ahead in each); forget that the next morning those 6 states Trump was behind in each, even though counting had stopped; forget that mathematically, for Trump to have lost his lead in PA overnight (52/48 with 95% votes counted) that 90% of the remaining 5% would have had to be for Biden (even the denominator expanding would have required at least 78% Biden); I will stipulate again, that reasonable individuals can still believe that either none of that occurred, or that it wasn't enough to tilt the election if it did occur.
In PA, however, the state broke the law and violated its own constitution. PA does not allow for early voting or for ballot harvesting (you can carry the ballot for a disabled person as POA, but cannot deliver ballots, en masse, to polling places or drop boxes, which are also illegal in PA). During the 2020 election, the Democrat Secretary of State allowed these things to occur, and when the RNC and State Legislature sued to stop it, the partisan (I believe 5-2 Dem to Rep) State Supreme Court threw out the case and allowed the illegal voting to proceed. Actually to be accurate, the state legislature passed an unconstitutional law that enabled some of this in 2019 (early voting I think), and then reversed course in 2020. TX sued PA and the US Supreme Court refused to hear the case, although anonymized notes indicate that three of the justices wanted to hear the case, and 6 opposed. Regardless of the US Supreme Court action, PA did in fact violate its own laws and constitution, which can be extrapolated to allowing any election law anywhere to be changed on short notice on the fly. Elections cannot be fair under those circumstances.
Bottom line, whether one believes that the reports or appearances of fraud were all false or would not have changed the election, it is indisputable PA violated its own election laws and constitution. Perhaps a case can be made that this was an emergency that demanded emergency action, and that overriding those laws in a non-standard way was justified, but I think reasonable and well-informed people could disagree with that.
As you are aware, Molly Ball (Time Magazine) documented much of this from the "Left" (sort of bragging that this was all done to ensure Trump could not win), and Molly Hemmingway documented this from the "Right". Both agree on many of the details; however, not on whether these and other activities were justified.
I will also note, in terms of fraud I find it curious that the mainstream press has never shown even a tiny bit of curiosity on any of these issues. Where has it been reported (outside of Federalist, or Breitbart, etc.) what actually caused the counting to stop in 6 states roughly at the same time? Was there a water leak in Atlanta that caused counting to stop in every other precinct in GA? What was in those boxes in Atlanta that were pulled out from under the table after the poll was closed and only two Democrat clerks remained? How could more people have voted in certain precincts in NV than were registered? Not only is the mainstream press largely silent on these questions and others, but people have lost their social media accounts and in some cases their jobs for even asking. If you ask about these things on Facebook (Meta), why is your account locked and why are you warned? If anything - this sort of stuff makes people MORE suspicious, not less. It erodes integrity when people cannot address their concerns without a risk of their lives being turned upside down. If someone (again, educated and informed) says: "It makes sense to have an organized process around elections and to ensure votes cast are cast by eligible voters, so we don't have a repeat of 2020", and that person loses their Meta account, the friends, their job, I suggest that is a bad outcome for all of us.
Last, while I do not condone Trump's actions or the Jan 6 people in any way, I can empathize with their position - that something fishy seemed to have occurred (in some minds, including my own), and that any cry for help was punished with loss of friends, family, social media, and in some cases jobs. Not only didn't these people get an ounce of support from the mainstream or the "powers that be", in some cases they were shunned and punished for their misgivings. Something I don't think has ever really occurred before in in recent times in the US.
The fact that John is ignorant to Oliver Anthony, and the sensation that was Rich Men North of Richmond perfectly segues into his shock about the comments from Carol Swain. You just don’t get it because you are not paying enough attention to the world beyond the Hudson River.
This is for Glenn, not John: have you ever studied the principles of Six Sigma quality processes? I’m assuming you have. What Sigma do you think the 2020 election would measure at, when you consider the early voting, mail-in ballots, routine ballot harvesting, suppression to real news (Hunter laptop), and opinion (just look at the Twitter files from Taibbi, et al. It is hardly surprising that Carol takes the view she did. The institutions DSB talks about above have completely failed us and the results of voting are deeply in question. This will but change until we have some more sigmas added into the voting process.
A critical thinking person can wrap their mind around any argument. A critical thinker can wrap their mind around any position on any issue even positions they don't agree with.. John McWhorter is not a critical thinker. Glenn Loury is a critical thinker.
Seems I confused “Sweet Disposition” by The Temper Trap with “Riptide” by Vance Joy. Swift has covered “Riptide” but references “Sweet Disposition” in “All Too Well.” The line about getting the words wrong (ironically appropriate here) is from “Riptide.”
The last 5 minutes of your discussion left me disappointed. It sounded like a wish for karma to have the person in question become ill, and idle speculation about attempts to harm the individual you dislike left me with an unpleasant feeling. Having you, Glenn, join in on this speculation was also shameful.
But when democrats lose.. the elections were stolen. The hypocrisy. “How could any one believe this?” Hilary, Obama, Carter, Bill and every Congress person. Bring on the mail in ballots .. it’ll turn and we will hear these same people complaining the election was stolen.
I enjoy often enjoy the comments to John and Glenn’s conversations as much as the conversations themselves. Sure, some are snarky, but generally speaking, the audience here is smart.
Well, OK. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, except on the topic of the election, of course. That issue is settled. “It’s in the Bible. I believe in the Bible. That’s good enough for me.” “The Warren Commission did an outstanding job. JFK was shot by a lone gunman. Case closed!” I just would have liked John to present three or four pieces of factual evidence. Yet the very existence of the wide availability of the evidence, which constitutes a body of work more magnificent and lofty than any mountain in Kansas, must be tantamount to an expression of its irrefutably. And, frankly, my lingering doubt is not really about possible ballot shenanigans. I just can’t grasp the fact that Joe Biden received 81 million votes, more than any previous President. Joe Biden. His old boss doesn’t even think that highly of him. Joe. Biden. Sounds wrong somehow. Seems wrong somehow.
As for the discussion about an ad hominem attack, which is really the focus here, the rhetorical “by any means” and “quite the opposite” are not sufficient to deflect me from my argument. Out of the blue, John brings up the subject and goes on the attack. He won’t even use the person’s name. He spends no time praising her credentials. What about anything he says makes this unnamed person seem remotely “credible” in John’s mind. She’s an Election Denier. She’s a Christian. She’s MAGA, which now seems to have morphed into an adjective. Everyone who listens to “The Glenn Show” knows the identity of John’s target, but it’s up to Glenn to speak her name. John’s tirade is not even tempered with a “Well, I know Carol a little bit, and I’ve read some of her work, but I disagree with her on this issue, and here are three or four solid reasons (from ‘the mountain’) why,” or “I don’t know Carol, and I’m not really familiar with her scholarship, but I have to tell you why I strongly disagree with her, and I will plant my flag of righteousness atop that mountain.” No, she is simply a person with no name, offering no credentials worth mentioning and nothing to make her believable in any other context. And that would appear to be an attack. If it doesn’t fall under “ad hominem,” it is something well short of “quite the opposite.”
The reason people on the left are shocked to hear that people believe the rigged/stolen election narrative is because they simply do not listen to or read anything from right leaning news sources.
It always confused me why my left leaning friends/relatives and right leaning friends/relatives were NEVER talking about the same issues, until I got out of my echo chamber and purposely listened to and read people on the other side. (It doesn’t count to just listen to your own side telling you what the other side is saying.)
The old Steven Covey rule says it best “Seek to understand first, before making yourself understood”.
Do this and you won’t be so shocked in the future.
Black folks should never forget Katrina, racist whites fatally shot black folks trying to escape over a bridge in New Orleans for safety. After the election of Donald Trump, blacks disaportionately purchased firearms for defensive purposes and especially during the pandemic, wherein there were shortages of essentials.
Glenn Loury relates that he is concerned about a civil war, whether Donald Trump is elected to president. I share the same concern. If a civil war broke out, blacks would be the most vulnerable. They have become increasingly dependent on whites and other groups for necessities to sustain life. There used to be one million black farmers, which has been reduced to forty thousand. Where is your "holy cow" expression, Charles?
This country is moving towards Neo-fascism. I'm not a deer in the headlight.
I think Glenn and John are trapped in a bubble. They believe “Woke” is dead. They are oblivious to the fight going on to regain abortion rights, fight voter suppression, and challenge the Conservative assault on education. They need to expand their horizon from feeling comfortable platforming Charles Murray and Carol Swain. Having one episode with Cornel West does not create a balance. Ignoring the authoritarian push by the Right leaves the impression the site is biased.
Super, super late but a) the email is in a state of disrepair from which it may never recover and b) today I finished John Ernest's "Liberation Historiography". The Colored Conventions Project is excused for having recommended this book since he took their subject very seriously but the actual texts he has to work with may not quite reach up to his ideas. A chapter discussed autobiography/slave narrative as history. Part of the reason that no one took slave narratives seriously as history until the 1970s is that the content of these narratives quickly devolved into conventional lists of what the white antislavery audience wanted to see and some of them are literally "as told to" a white person. (Twelve Years A Slave is an "as told to".) Garrison wrote an introduction to Frederick Douglass's first Narrative (1845) in which the text is treated as mostly a gloss on Garrison's ideas and Douglass could not talk about his resentment at performing for Garrison until My Bondage and My Freedom 10 years later. So a Black person can tell a Black person's story but the Black person may need to use some cleverness for that story to transcend the packaging necessary for a white gatekeeper to be interested in it and be meaningful in the Black public sphere. The issue may not be a sanitized Harriet Tubman as we have seen many sanitized MLKs over the years but whether the meaning in the statue is all on the surface.
Let’s put this flat out. President Trump supported states would have actually fought tooth and nail up to the Supreme Court showing evidence of fraud and any evidence they found.
It didn’t happen though!
So we are left with two scenarios then. Either the election wasn’t stolen in such a way to have hard evidence. Or if it was and even the 100% controlled by Republican Government States didn’t do their jobs to bring it to light.
If the latter is true, and you wholeheartedly believe that. The fact you are not in the streets taking your country back by any means necessary marks you as a coward, and not a true American.
Around 45 minutes, I was disappointed with John's response to Glenn's foray into the criminal prosecution of Trump. At least as I perceived it, Glenn wasn't asking "was the election stolen?", rather "Should Trump be prosecuted for his actions?". You don't have to defend Trump to question the criminal prosecution.
Going back to Comey's re-definition of mishandling of classified material in 2016, it seems the precedent has been "be careful about criminal charges that may influence an election".
I have liberal friends who quite literally wish bad things for Trump. Given the history of the "resistance starts now", even they are concerned about the apparent weaponization of the DOJ (and state and local) in going after Trump (while slow-walking Biden investigations). I think that's the serious question to discuss.
Great discussion!
Beautiful statue. If it was okay for an Italian film director to make westerns, Miles Davis to use Spanish classical music as the basis for his Sketches of Spain, a black composer to write music for a film NOT about black people, Shakespeare to write about emperors or young lovers in Italy then it really doesn't matter. as human being no aspect of humanity should be foreign to us. If we were to embrace this racial nonsense then forget employing anyone of a different race on a project that does not "concern" them.
Hi Glenn, John, I admire you both more than I can describe in a few short words. I agree with both of you on almost every issue, and on almost every detail on every issues (of course naturally some minor differences), but I have to ask: why would it be unreasonable for well-informed and intelligent people to believe the 2020 election was suspect? Not that you have to (or anyone has to) agree of course, but that people beyond Fox News viewers (I am not), "right wing activists" (I am not), but middle-of-the-road mostly non-partisans who just got an "icky" feeling after watching what happened several years ago, and dug into literature (on both sides) and came to the conclusion something was wrong?
I will stipulate for a moment that there was no fraud (I personally believe there was, and that there always is some, but that it was bigger and more organized than usual in 2020). Forget for a moment - ballots materializing from under tables, on film, in GA after the polling office was closed; forget about universal mail in ballots in NV where several precincts had more votes than voters; forget about illegal drop boxes In Milwaukee and Madison WI, or that the WI state-run election committees and poll offices were replaced by privately funded left-leaning partisan organizations; forget that counting stopped almost simultaneously in 6 states (where Trump was ahead in each); forget that the next morning those 6 states Trump was behind in each, even though counting had stopped; forget that mathematically, for Trump to have lost his lead in PA overnight (52/48 with 95% votes counted) that 90% of the remaining 5% would have had to be for Biden (even the denominator expanding would have required at least 78% Biden); I will stipulate again, that reasonable individuals can still believe that either none of that occurred, or that it wasn't enough to tilt the election if it did occur.
In PA, however, the state broke the law and violated its own constitution. PA does not allow for early voting or for ballot harvesting (you can carry the ballot for a disabled person as POA, but cannot deliver ballots, en masse, to polling places or drop boxes, which are also illegal in PA). During the 2020 election, the Democrat Secretary of State allowed these things to occur, and when the RNC and State Legislature sued to stop it, the partisan (I believe 5-2 Dem to Rep) State Supreme Court threw out the case and allowed the illegal voting to proceed. Actually to be accurate, the state legislature passed an unconstitutional law that enabled some of this in 2019 (early voting I think), and then reversed course in 2020. TX sued PA and the US Supreme Court refused to hear the case, although anonymized notes indicate that three of the justices wanted to hear the case, and 6 opposed. Regardless of the US Supreme Court action, PA did in fact violate its own laws and constitution, which can be extrapolated to allowing any election law anywhere to be changed on short notice on the fly. Elections cannot be fair under those circumstances.
Bottom line, whether one believes that the reports or appearances of fraud were all false or would not have changed the election, it is indisputable PA violated its own election laws and constitution. Perhaps a case can be made that this was an emergency that demanded emergency action, and that overriding those laws in a non-standard way was justified, but I think reasonable and well-informed people could disagree with that.
As you are aware, Molly Ball (Time Magazine) documented much of this from the "Left" (sort of bragging that this was all done to ensure Trump could not win), and Molly Hemmingway documented this from the "Right". Both agree on many of the details; however, not on whether these and other activities were justified.
I will also note, in terms of fraud I find it curious that the mainstream press has never shown even a tiny bit of curiosity on any of these issues. Where has it been reported (outside of Federalist, or Breitbart, etc.) what actually caused the counting to stop in 6 states roughly at the same time? Was there a water leak in Atlanta that caused counting to stop in every other precinct in GA? What was in those boxes in Atlanta that were pulled out from under the table after the poll was closed and only two Democrat clerks remained? How could more people have voted in certain precincts in NV than were registered? Not only is the mainstream press largely silent on these questions and others, but people have lost their social media accounts and in some cases their jobs for even asking. If you ask about these things on Facebook (Meta), why is your account locked and why are you warned? If anything - this sort of stuff makes people MORE suspicious, not less. It erodes integrity when people cannot address their concerns without a risk of their lives being turned upside down. If someone (again, educated and informed) says: "It makes sense to have an organized process around elections and to ensure votes cast are cast by eligible voters, so we don't have a repeat of 2020", and that person loses their Meta account, the friends, their job, I suggest that is a bad outcome for all of us.
Last, while I do not condone Trump's actions or the Jan 6 people in any way, I can empathize with their position - that something fishy seemed to have occurred (in some minds, including my own), and that any cry for help was punished with loss of friends, family, social media, and in some cases jobs. Not only didn't these people get an ounce of support from the mainstream or the "powers that be", in some cases they were shunned and punished for their misgivings. Something I don't think has ever really occurred before in in recent times in the US.
The fact that John is ignorant to Oliver Anthony, and the sensation that was Rich Men North of Richmond perfectly segues into his shock about the comments from Carol Swain. You just don’t get it because you are not paying enough attention to the world beyond the Hudson River.
This is for Glenn, not John: have you ever studied the principles of Six Sigma quality processes? I’m assuming you have. What Sigma do you think the 2020 election would measure at, when you consider the early voting, mail-in ballots, routine ballot harvesting, suppression to real news (Hunter laptop), and opinion (just look at the Twitter files from Taibbi, et al. It is hardly surprising that Carol takes the view she did. The institutions DSB talks about above have completely failed us and the results of voting are deeply in question. This will but change until we have some more sigmas added into the voting process.
A critical thinking person can wrap their mind around any argument. A critical thinker can wrap their mind around any position on any issue even positions they don't agree with.. John McWhorter is not a critical thinker. Glenn Loury is a critical thinker.
Seems I confused “Sweet Disposition” by The Temper Trap with “Riptide” by Vance Joy. Swift has covered “Riptide” but references “Sweet Disposition” in “All Too Well.” The line about getting the words wrong (ironically appropriate here) is from “Riptide.”
The last 5 minutes of your discussion left me disappointed. It sounded like a wish for karma to have the person in question become ill, and idle speculation about attempts to harm the individual you dislike left me with an unpleasant feeling. Having you, Glenn, join in on this speculation was also shameful.
But when democrats lose.. the elections were stolen. The hypocrisy. “How could any one believe this?” Hilary, Obama, Carter, Bill and every Congress person. Bring on the mail in ballots .. it’ll turn and we will hear these same people complaining the election was stolen.
I enjoy often enjoy the comments to John and Glenn’s conversations as much as the conversations themselves. Sure, some are snarky, but generally speaking, the audience here is smart.
Well, OK. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, except on the topic of the election, of course. That issue is settled. “It’s in the Bible. I believe in the Bible. That’s good enough for me.” “The Warren Commission did an outstanding job. JFK was shot by a lone gunman. Case closed!” I just would have liked John to present three or four pieces of factual evidence. Yet the very existence of the wide availability of the evidence, which constitutes a body of work more magnificent and lofty than any mountain in Kansas, must be tantamount to an expression of its irrefutably. And, frankly, my lingering doubt is not really about possible ballot shenanigans. I just can’t grasp the fact that Joe Biden received 81 million votes, more than any previous President. Joe Biden. His old boss doesn’t even think that highly of him. Joe. Biden. Sounds wrong somehow. Seems wrong somehow.
As for the discussion about an ad hominem attack, which is really the focus here, the rhetorical “by any means” and “quite the opposite” are not sufficient to deflect me from my argument. Out of the blue, John brings up the subject and goes on the attack. He won’t even use the person’s name. He spends no time praising her credentials. What about anything he says makes this unnamed person seem remotely “credible” in John’s mind. She’s an Election Denier. She’s a Christian. She’s MAGA, which now seems to have morphed into an adjective. Everyone who listens to “The Glenn Show” knows the identity of John’s target, but it’s up to Glenn to speak her name. John’s tirade is not even tempered with a “Well, I know Carol a little bit, and I’ve read some of her work, but I disagree with her on this issue, and here are three or four solid reasons (from ‘the mountain’) why,” or “I don’t know Carol, and I’m not really familiar with her scholarship, but I have to tell you why I strongly disagree with her, and I will plant my flag of righteousness atop that mountain.” No, she is simply a person with no name, offering no credentials worth mentioning and nothing to make her believable in any other context. And that would appear to be an attack. If it doesn’t fall under “ad hominem,” it is something well short of “quite the opposite.”
The reason people on the left are shocked to hear that people believe the rigged/stolen election narrative is because they simply do not listen to or read anything from right leaning news sources.
It always confused me why my left leaning friends/relatives and right leaning friends/relatives were NEVER talking about the same issues, until I got out of my echo chamber and purposely listened to and read people on the other side. (It doesn’t count to just listen to your own side telling you what the other side is saying.)
The old Steven Covey rule says it best “Seek to understand first, before making yourself understood”.
Do this and you won’t be so shocked in the future.
Black folks should never forget Katrina, racist whites fatally shot black folks trying to escape over a bridge in New Orleans for safety. After the election of Donald Trump, blacks disaportionately purchased firearms for defensive purposes and especially during the pandemic, wherein there were shortages of essentials.
Glenn Loury relates that he is concerned about a civil war, whether Donald Trump is elected to president. I share the same concern. If a civil war broke out, blacks would be the most vulnerable. They have become increasingly dependent on whites and other groups for necessities to sustain life. There used to be one million black farmers, which has been reduced to forty thousand. Where is your "holy cow" expression, Charles?
This country is moving towards Neo-fascism. I'm not a deer in the headlight.
I think Glenn and John are trapped in a bubble. They believe “Woke” is dead. They are oblivious to the fight going on to regain abortion rights, fight voter suppression, and challenge the Conservative assault on education. They need to expand their horizon from feeling comfortable platforming Charles Murray and Carol Swain. Having one episode with Cornel West does not create a balance. Ignoring the authoritarian push by the Right leaves the impression the site is biased.