When you talk population averages and zoom out to 100.000 for …….The root cause of African American generational poverty as well as Asian and Ashkenazi Jewish generational wealth……the answer is the same..unfortunately it’s “nature” (Genes)
James Murphy I think you under estimate the role of culture. Socio-economic outcomes are heavily driven by broadly defined physical health, broadly defined mental health and broadly defined intelligence . . . all of which can be shifted by one's own actions, especially as a child.
I think if we can improve 8th grade standardized test scores (which itself is mostly a proxy of the above three), 80% of our economic problems would sort themselves out.
There are many examples of black 8th grade excellence. Can we agree to focus on these and expanding pockets of K-12 black excellence around the world?
Physical health, mental illness and intelligence are all examples of highly heredib!e traits (genes). Even something as seemingly random like political outlook (conservatives\provressive) has high here heretibility (twin studies)........can you teach people to fulfill their phenotypic max....yes and we should......in fact, we saw that with the black IQ increases of 30 years ago (Flynn effect)...however you cannot move past the phenotypic limit without sustained heavy lifting of natural selection.......this is why I propose eliminating all Governemnt welfare over time........this would GREATLY incentivize all poor women, not just blacks, to be MUCH more selective with men. over the generations This would cause an increase in IQ and positive personality and work traits .....as those with those Positive traits would be more successful passing on their genes than those without them.
Paradoxically to make Things better for.the poor.....you have to stop making it so comfortable.to be poor. natural selection will do the work to improve the genes over generations.
This is a good reason to study group differences. Hiding the truth about genes and group differences hurts the poor.
If women were taught the high heritability of intelligence, personality and mental illness, it would begin to change and at the very least inform their sexual choices.
James, I agree with much of what you say, but I doubt we could ever phase out the welfare system. Maybe just putting the word "shame" back in our lexicon, more requirements for financial literacy classes in the schools (instead of trying to rewrite history) and going back to teaching the 3 R's. Education leads to more opportunities which leads to interaction with more educated people and therefore a larger, smarter, more motivated gene pool. I just heard a podcast interview with Andrew Sullivan, who was found in a poor school with a very high test score and given an opportunity to go to a good private school. He said he though testing helps find these kids of all groups & help them get a better education. While teachers can recognize some, there are some that don't want to show their intelligence for fear of ridicule.
I think we could phase welfare out over 100 years. If we had the will to actually fix things rather than blame......my plan would simply keep all welfare programs frozen at the dollar amount they are today.
Its simple......over many years monetary inflation would very slowly eat away at the value of the benefit. Time for churches and private charities to rise again.
And if the USG wants to allow 250,000 aliens to enter the country each month then the government "managers" will have to get off their asses and manage the budget. If they Want to add 250,000 new welfare people......then you got to remove 250,000 people off the roles.
You must be smoking something if you think Americans & the USG can think 100 years in the future. They can look 100 seconds. Just look at the 3+ trillion "human infrastructure" package. CHARITIES & CHURCHES, so mid last century. People don't vote for charities and churches. How would that be fair. (read with a whine). That's like asking private industry to invent a way of communicating across the world digitally so we can all be closer and understand one another better. KUMBIYA. The only thing about immigrants is they come to work. I think a swap would change the narrative. If our dead-beat welfare recipients (yes, there are those who truly need) had to spend a few months in a failed Marxist, 3rd rate country... Is there racism in South & Central America?
While I think genetics may have something to do with "Asian and Ashkenazi Jewish wealth" I believe it to be more cultural. These groups tended in the past not to intermarry, have strong family bonds & stress education by necessity for survival.
Nancy; Although it doesn't explain 100%...."nature" (genes) accounts for more than we feel comfortable admitting. I will go a step further and say that to a large extent even "nurture" is also nature in as much as its the parent's/families genes express themselves in raising their children (environment is nature).
Back to your point of culture. I'm afraid, "culture" is also in large part "nature" as groups of like peoples express their propensities (genes) and natural selection makes its mark through time.
Now, I'm not saying there is NO free will and everything is 100% deterministic. I just believe there is a lot less then we have been sold, I mean told. So, I say let's relax and realize not everything is under our control to fix.... In short, Let's be kind to one another.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Asian countries were isolated for many centuries, then when able to emigrate (not just to the US) they remained unto themselves (Chinatowns, Little Tokyo's), married and had children within these tight communities therefore limiting the gene pool. Jews were discriminated against since the start of Christianity and also stayed within there own. Education for men was always stressed. When they were the only ones allowed to charge interest on money, use cadavers for study and provide other services not allowed to Christians, became adept and useful to power. The Islamic world that embraced ancient Greek & Roman knowledge was able to be shared unlike the Christian world. Remaining isolated within that world, the gene pool was also limited. Blacks in South America and the Caribbean intermingle with natives and some whites when freed. Here and in South America the black populations were from a variety of African lands so the gene pool was broader. Those cultures also did not have need or were in some cases forbidden education & strong sense of family (more tribal). I agree it's a nature/nurture discussion I would love to have the guys explore more. Thanks for responding.
Thanks for your response Chui, I think we agree on more than we disagree on; I did take care in my comment to state "of any race/ethnicity" for the very reason that intergenerational poverty is pan-racial. As with so many issues I have to defer to Thomas Sowell for gathering so much research and that the issues which created the culture of the south is pre-reconstruction, pre-American, and still afflicts the parts of the UK from which those regions were settled. Regarding our agreement on the problems regarding the Reagan/Clinton/Biden response to crime it should also be noted that President Obama did nothing to reform this during either term, nor did Bush but my expectations of Bush/Cheney are lower than low!!
When you talk population averages and zoom out to 100.000 for …….The root cause of African American generational poverty as well as Asian and Ashkenazi Jewish generational wealth……the answer is the same..unfortunately it’s “nature” (Genes)
James Murphy I think you under estimate the role of culture. Socio-economic outcomes are heavily driven by broadly defined physical health, broadly defined mental health and broadly defined intelligence . . . all of which can be shifted by one's own actions, especially as a child.
I think if we can improve 8th grade standardized test scores (which itself is mostly a proxy of the above three), 80% of our economic problems would sort themselves out.
There are many examples of black 8th grade excellence. Can we agree to focus on these and expanding pockets of K-12 black excellence around the world?
Physical health, mental illness and intelligence are all examples of highly heredib!e traits (genes). Even something as seemingly random like political outlook (conservatives\provressive) has high here heretibility (twin studies)........can you teach people to fulfill their phenotypic max....yes and we should......in fact, we saw that with the black IQ increases of 30 years ago (Flynn effect)...however you cannot move past the phenotypic limit without sustained heavy lifting of natural selection.......this is why I propose eliminating all Governemnt welfare over time........this would GREATLY incentivize all poor women, not just blacks, to be MUCH more selective with men. over the generations This would cause an increase in IQ and positive personality and work traits .....as those with those Positive traits would be more successful passing on their genes than those without them.
Paradoxically to make Things better for.the poor.....you have to stop making it so comfortable.to be poor. natural selection will do the work to improve the genes over generations.
This is a good reason to study group differences. Hiding the truth about genes and group differences hurts the poor.
If women were taught the high heritability of intelligence, personality and mental illness, it would begin to change and at the very least inform their sexual choices.
James, I agree with much of what you say, but I doubt we could ever phase out the welfare system. Maybe just putting the word "shame" back in our lexicon, more requirements for financial literacy classes in the schools (instead of trying to rewrite history) and going back to teaching the 3 R's. Education leads to more opportunities which leads to interaction with more educated people and therefore a larger, smarter, more motivated gene pool. I just heard a podcast interview with Andrew Sullivan, who was found in a poor school with a very high test score and given an opportunity to go to a good private school. He said he though testing helps find these kids of all groups & help them get a better education. While teachers can recognize some, there are some that don't want to show their intelligence for fear of ridicule.
I think we could phase welfare out over 100 years. If we had the will to actually fix things rather than blame......my plan would simply keep all welfare programs frozen at the dollar amount they are today.
Its simple......over many years monetary inflation would very slowly eat away at the value of the benefit. Time for churches and private charities to rise again.
And if the USG wants to allow 250,000 aliens to enter the country each month then the government "managers" will have to get off their asses and manage the budget. If they Want to add 250,000 new welfare people......then you got to remove 250,000 people off the roles.
You must be smoking something if you think Americans & the USG can think 100 years in the future. They can look 100 seconds. Just look at the 3+ trillion "human infrastructure" package. CHARITIES & CHURCHES, so mid last century. People don't vote for charities and churches. How would that be fair. (read with a whine). That's like asking private industry to invent a way of communicating across the world digitally so we can all be closer and understand one another better. KUMBIYA. The only thing about immigrants is they come to work. I think a swap would change the narrative. If our dead-beat welfare recipients (yes, there are those who truly need) had to spend a few months in a failed Marxist, 3rd rate country... Is there racism in South & Central America?
While I think genetics may have something to do with "Asian and Ashkenazi Jewish wealth" I believe it to be more cultural. These groups tended in the past not to intermarry, have strong family bonds & stress education by necessity for survival.
Nancy; Although it doesn't explain 100%...."nature" (genes) accounts for more than we feel comfortable admitting. I will go a step further and say that to a large extent even "nurture" is also nature in as much as its the parent's/families genes express themselves in raising their children (environment is nature).
Back to your point of culture. I'm afraid, "culture" is also in large part "nature" as groups of like peoples express their propensities (genes) and natural selection makes its mark through time.
Now, I'm not saying there is NO free will and everything is 100% deterministic. I just believe there is a lot less then we have been sold, I mean told. So, I say let's relax and realize not everything is under our control to fix.... In short, Let's be kind to one another.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Asian countries were isolated for many centuries, then when able to emigrate (not just to the US) they remained unto themselves (Chinatowns, Little Tokyo's), married and had children within these tight communities therefore limiting the gene pool. Jews were discriminated against since the start of Christianity and also stayed within there own. Education for men was always stressed. When they were the only ones allowed to charge interest on money, use cadavers for study and provide other services not allowed to Christians, became adept and useful to power. The Islamic world that embraced ancient Greek & Roman knowledge was able to be shared unlike the Christian world. Remaining isolated within that world, the gene pool was also limited. Blacks in South America and the Caribbean intermingle with natives and some whites when freed. Here and in South America the black populations were from a variety of African lands so the gene pool was broader. Those cultures also did not have need or were in some cases forbidden education & strong sense of family (more tribal). I agree it's a nature/nurture discussion I would love to have the guys explore more. Thanks for responding.
Thanks for your response Chui, I think we agree on more than we disagree on; I did take care in my comment to state "of any race/ethnicity" for the very reason that intergenerational poverty is pan-racial. As with so many issues I have to defer to Thomas Sowell for gathering so much research and that the issues which created the culture of the south is pre-reconstruction, pre-American, and still afflicts the parts of the UK from which those regions were settled. Regarding our agreement on the problems regarding the Reagan/Clinton/Biden response to crime it should also be noted that President Obama did nothing to reform this during either term, nor did Bush but my expectations of Bush/Cheney are lower than low!!