On this bonus episode of The Glenn Show, I’m joined by Noam Dworman, host of the Live from the Table podcast and owner of the Comedy Cellar, a legendary comedy club in New York City. Noam and I began corresponding years ago, and those email exchanges have developed into a real friendship. He’s an extremely thoughtful guy who, like many of my friends, disagrees with some of the things I’ve been saying about the Gaza War and Israel-Palestine. Noam decided he wanted to persuade me to think about the issue from a different perspective. To that end, a little while ago, Noam and his wife made the long drive from New York to Providence, accompanied by Coleman Hughes, Coleman’s fiancee, and a hefty bag of books about Israel. Over a long, sumptuous dinner, all of us, including my lovely wife LaJuan, talked about the issues, and much else.
I really appreciated the respectful conversation between Glenn and Noam. In the stack of reading material that Noam shared with Glenn I’m not sure if Dr. Einat Wilf’s book was included she provides a very different perspective on the conflict. Firstly, she dates the beginning of the Israeli -Arab conflict not to 1948, but to the fall and disposition of the Ottoman Empire.
Here is a link of a podcast she did with Dan Senor—it’s must listen.
I would fly out from Australia to be at that dinner with Glenn, Noam, Coleman and their partners. Imagine the conversation! Recently someone asked me “Which three people would I like to have dinner with?” and I responded (kind of jokingly) “Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad, all around the same table.” I actually think Glenn, Noam and Coleman might trump that!
Why do we not talk about the word "terror/terrorist"? To me any group of any stripe that threatens or threatens to threaten, calls for physical and/or mental harms to others are terrorists, or do I have the definition wrong, & should be dealt with. Leaders of such groups should be arrested, tried as terrorists & either jailed or deported to countries that share their views.
Maybe a little Toby Keith is called for. I will miss his music! (not always his politics)
Good stuff, gentlemen. I hate I took so long to get to this one. In a small way, it reminds me of the times my best friend and I would argue--extremely passionately--about affirmative action.
True friends trust each other, even when we don't understand each other.
Brutal honesty (in most cases) can't break a true friendship. Deep disagreement (in most cases) will never destroy a true friendship.
But in private moments, we will always be wondering, tacitly, "Where did he get this s*** from????"
I really enjoyed this conversation and appreciate your openness, self introspection, and willingness to engage with the pile of books!
I knew it was a matter of time before you had a pro Israel guest. I'm patiently awaiting and looking forward!
A few (more) thoughts:
1.) Regarding Israel having higher standards as a western country:
As Rabbi Mannis Friedman pointed out: the only time the terrorists use the human shield tactic is with Israel. They do this because they know it will make Israel more restrained. They don't bother using this tactic in fighting Arab countries because they know their opponents will not be restrained - so why bother.
2. On a related note: this will not be popular but I believe it to be true ... the crime Israel is guilty of (and her allies for pushing her towards this) is not doing the hard work to eliminate the terrorists completely to begin with. The tolerance of indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza due to the effectiveness of the iron dome convinced Israel they could live with it and it convinced the terrorists that as long as they stay in it for the long fight victory is possible in the long term. For YEARS Israel has accepted what no other nation in the world would accept and the result was thousands of dead innocent citizens of both Israel and the Palestinians. I firmly believe squashing the terrorists and convincing them the tactics would not work in the long term would have been ugly but ultimately saved lives for everyone and given everyone a potential better future.
3. I'm surprised you were surprised your Jewish followers were surprised that you were not instinctively supportive of Israel (thought I thought/think you are supportive of Israel) because of the Brown letter. I agree loyalty tests are inappropriate and disgusting. On the other hand, many of your Jewish conservative followers appreciate you not only because you are fiercely an independent-nuanced thinker ... but also because your conservative world view. It is not a chiddush (novel idea) that a conservative signing on to a pro Palestinian letter citing Hamas statistics would raise eyebrows.
That being said, while I don't care for some of the guests on the topic I am thankful and appreciative of the attention you have given the topic. Keep up the good work!
Glenn - Thanks for getting a speaker "from the other side"!
I wanna push back on "A single state solution won't work", not because I think it would, but because of what the claim shows about our assumptions. The US has -- at least since Reconstruction -- been stumbling towards a multi-ethnic single state solution. Why can't that work in Israel/Palestine? They just won't get along? An Arab majority state would not respect Jewish minority rights? Because -- based on the US experience -- multi-ethnic states don't work (hope not!!!!)? Or because the Arabs can't be trusted to not oppress a Jewish minority? I think the latter (as evidence, consider Arab expulsion of Jews from Arab countries since 1948), but I wanna bring that assumption into the light.
RE: We expect more of Israel because we're part of the same civilization. OK. Question: Can we favor Israel because we're part of the same civilization? Is that OK? I suspect, for many people (not Glenn, but many on the left), the answer is NO -- that's "tribalism". (What would Amy Wax say?)
I think some in the West have a problem with double standards here. We're perfectly fine with holding Western countries to a higher standard, but we're loath to play favorites merely because they're Western countries. Don't they go hand-in-hand? If we feel it's reasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard, shouldn't whatever there is about Israel that makes us feel that way also mean that we should lean towards favoring Israel? If I expect my friends to behave better, shouldn't I stand by my friends? Again, this isn't a Glenn problem, but there seems to be a segment of the populace who want to judge Israel differently but not treat them differently.
I agree with Noam: You can't get a 2-state solution until Palestinian leadership accepts there is no 1-state solution. Question: Could the pivot (under Trump) in US diplomacy from "we can't settle the mideast without the Palestinians" to "we can make progress without them" help get the Palestinian leadership to abandon a 1-state solution? Does freezing the Palestinians out of the negotiations ("we don't need you") help bring them to the table?
On the early cease-fire letter. The Babylon Bee lampooned this with a headline "Emperor Hirohito Calls For Ceasefire After Bombing Of Pearl Harbor". While I understand Glenn's honorable goals, it did seem wildly premature. And the Pacific theater drug on for over 3 1/2 years and utterly devastated Japan. Our strategic bombing campaign did intentionally kill as many of them as we could, including women and children -- and that might have killed fewer than a land invasion. Was there a better solution?
I firmly believe Glenn bleeds "black blood", the same black blood as Thomas Sowell & Clarence Thomas. Is it the same black blood as Ibram Kendi or Ta-Nehisi Coates?
The pleas from the cultured caring professoriate for a cease fire so that they don't have to watch more slaughter of women and children (innocent or not) while admitting that they have no idea of how to prevent another 10/7 from happening again seems rather ill considered from the point of view of one facing repeated 10/7's until they are totally wiped out as a nation.
War is terrible and sometimes barbaric. Hamas started this war with the assistance of Iran and they set the tone for its barbarism. They exploit their own people and intentionally put them in harms way. Israel will finish this war while doing everything reasonably possible to avoid the barbarity. The civilized world is depending on Israel to destroy Hamas and win this war, whether the leaders say so out loud or not.
As a white Australian (ex Rhodesian) I despise the way Perfidious Albion behaved in Africa, especially its treatment of white Rhodesians. My experience has inforned me and the Israeli dilemma is easy for me to understand. To Glenn I ask, would he buy a residential property in the South side of Chicago or any average black neighbourhood? To Noam Dworman I ask much the same question?
Great conversation and indeed a thoughtful man. My only confusion is how someone so intelligent and thoughtful can not only support Biden but in fact praise him at all. Biden is a disaster on every front, but even in this situation where he may be taking a decent position, let’s not credit the man. He goes whatever way the wind is blowing. That’s me being kind
If it is true that peace is within Hamas’s power - they could return the Israeli hostages and lay down their arms, and the IDF offensive would stop - then is the blood of Palestinians not on Hamas’s hands, rather than the IDF’s?
So. If the two of you were confronted by armed killers hiding behind innocents you would have no problem gunning down the whole lot? Is this your idea of protecting Western Civilization?
Glenn’s comment that Biden’s support for Israel may cost him the election due to anger on the Left is confusing - who are the Left going to vote for, if not Biden?
Listening to Norman Finkelstein on Gaza provides an excellent example of how letting someone speak their mind allows them to hang themselves on their own rope. Finkelstein speaks the same Leftist platitudes you would expect, and argues from authority as the offspring of Holocaust survivors, while coming across as removed from reality.
I really appreciated the respectful conversation between Glenn and Noam. In the stack of reading material that Noam shared with Glenn I’m not sure if Dr. Einat Wilf’s book was included she provides a very different perspective on the conflict. Firstly, she dates the beginning of the Israeli -Arab conflict not to 1948, but to the fall and disposition of the Ottoman Empire.
Here is a link of a podcast she did with Dan Senor—it’s must listen.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000644584403
I would fly out from Australia to be at that dinner with Glenn, Noam, Coleman and their partners. Imagine the conversation! Recently someone asked me “Which three people would I like to have dinner with?” and I responded (kind of jokingly) “Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad, all around the same table.” I actually think Glenn, Noam and Coleman might trump that!
Why do we not talk about the word "terror/terrorist"? To me any group of any stripe that threatens or threatens to threaten, calls for physical and/or mental harms to others are terrorists, or do I have the definition wrong, & should be dealt with. Leaders of such groups should be arrested, tried as terrorists & either jailed or deported to countries that share their views.
Maybe a little Toby Keith is called for. I will miss his music! (not always his politics)
Good stuff, gentlemen. I hate I took so long to get to this one. In a small way, it reminds me of the times my best friend and I would argue--extremely passionately--about affirmative action.
True friends trust each other, even when we don't understand each other.
Brutal honesty (in most cases) can't break a true friendship. Deep disagreement (in most cases) will never destroy a true friendship.
But in private moments, we will always be wondering, tacitly, "Where did he get this s*** from????"
Dr. Loury,
I really enjoyed this conversation and appreciate your openness, self introspection, and willingness to engage with the pile of books!
I knew it was a matter of time before you had a pro Israel guest. I'm patiently awaiting and looking forward!
A few (more) thoughts:
1.) Regarding Israel having higher standards as a western country:
As Rabbi Mannis Friedman pointed out: the only time the terrorists use the human shield tactic is with Israel. They do this because they know it will make Israel more restrained. They don't bother using this tactic in fighting Arab countries because they know their opponents will not be restrained - so why bother.
2. On a related note: this will not be popular but I believe it to be true ... the crime Israel is guilty of (and her allies for pushing her towards this) is not doing the hard work to eliminate the terrorists completely to begin with. The tolerance of indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza due to the effectiveness of the iron dome convinced Israel they could live with it and it convinced the terrorists that as long as they stay in it for the long fight victory is possible in the long term. For YEARS Israel has accepted what no other nation in the world would accept and the result was thousands of dead innocent citizens of both Israel and the Palestinians. I firmly believe squashing the terrorists and convincing them the tactics would not work in the long term would have been ugly but ultimately saved lives for everyone and given everyone a potential better future.
3. I'm surprised you were surprised your Jewish followers were surprised that you were not instinctively supportive of Israel (thought I thought/think you are supportive of Israel) because of the Brown letter. I agree loyalty tests are inappropriate and disgusting. On the other hand, many of your Jewish conservative followers appreciate you not only because you are fiercely an independent-nuanced thinker ... but also because your conservative world view. It is not a chiddush (novel idea) that a conservative signing on to a pro Palestinian letter citing Hamas statistics would raise eyebrows.
That being said, while I don't care for some of the guests on the topic I am thankful and appreciative of the attention you have given the topic. Keep up the good work!
Glenn - Thanks for getting a speaker "from the other side"!
I wanna push back on "A single state solution won't work", not because I think it would, but because of what the claim shows about our assumptions. The US has -- at least since Reconstruction -- been stumbling towards a multi-ethnic single state solution. Why can't that work in Israel/Palestine? They just won't get along? An Arab majority state would not respect Jewish minority rights? Because -- based on the US experience -- multi-ethnic states don't work (hope not!!!!)? Or because the Arabs can't be trusted to not oppress a Jewish minority? I think the latter (as evidence, consider Arab expulsion of Jews from Arab countries since 1948), but I wanna bring that assumption into the light.
RE: We expect more of Israel because we're part of the same civilization. OK. Question: Can we favor Israel because we're part of the same civilization? Is that OK? I suspect, for many people (not Glenn, but many on the left), the answer is NO -- that's "tribalism". (What would Amy Wax say?)
I think some in the West have a problem with double standards here. We're perfectly fine with holding Western countries to a higher standard, but we're loath to play favorites merely because they're Western countries. Don't they go hand-in-hand? If we feel it's reasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard, shouldn't whatever there is about Israel that makes us feel that way also mean that we should lean towards favoring Israel? If I expect my friends to behave better, shouldn't I stand by my friends? Again, this isn't a Glenn problem, but there seems to be a segment of the populace who want to judge Israel differently but not treat them differently.
I agree with Noam: You can't get a 2-state solution until Palestinian leadership accepts there is no 1-state solution. Question: Could the pivot (under Trump) in US diplomacy from "we can't settle the mideast without the Palestinians" to "we can make progress without them" help get the Palestinian leadership to abandon a 1-state solution? Does freezing the Palestinians out of the negotiations ("we don't need you") help bring them to the table?
On the early cease-fire letter. The Babylon Bee lampooned this with a headline "Emperor Hirohito Calls For Ceasefire After Bombing Of Pearl Harbor". While I understand Glenn's honorable goals, it did seem wildly premature. And the Pacific theater drug on for over 3 1/2 years and utterly devastated Japan. Our strategic bombing campaign did intentionally kill as many of them as we could, including women and children -- and that might have killed fewer than a land invasion. Was there a better solution?
I firmly believe Glenn bleeds "black blood", the same black blood as Thomas Sowell & Clarence Thomas. Is it the same black blood as Ibram Kendi or Ta-Nehisi Coates?
I'd love to know what were the titles in the bag of books Noam gave to Glenn.
The pleas from the cultured caring professoriate for a cease fire so that they don't have to watch more slaughter of women and children (innocent or not) while admitting that they have no idea of how to prevent another 10/7 from happening again seems rather ill considered from the point of view of one facing repeated 10/7's until they are totally wiped out as a nation.
War is terrible and sometimes barbaric. Hamas started this war with the assistance of Iran and they set the tone for its barbarism. They exploit their own people and intentionally put them in harms way. Israel will finish this war while doing everything reasonably possible to avoid the barbarity. The civilized world is depending on Israel to destroy Hamas and win this war, whether the leaders say so out loud or not.
As a white Australian (ex Rhodesian) I despise the way Perfidious Albion behaved in Africa, especially its treatment of white Rhodesians. My experience has inforned me and the Israeli dilemma is easy for me to understand. To Glenn I ask, would he buy a residential property in the South side of Chicago or any average black neighbourhood? To Noam Dworman I ask much the same question?
Great conversation and indeed a thoughtful man. My only confusion is how someone so intelligent and thoughtful can not only support Biden but in fact praise him at all. Biden is a disaster on every front, but even in this situation where he may be taking a decent position, let’s not credit the man. He goes whatever way the wind is blowing. That’s me being kind
I really enjoyed the conversation. It was a thoughtful and respectful discussion.
If it is true that peace is within Hamas’s power - they could return the Israeli hostages and lay down their arms, and the IDF offensive would stop - then is the blood of Palestinians not on Hamas’s hands, rather than the IDF’s?
So. If the two of you were confronted by armed killers hiding behind innocents you would have no problem gunning down the whole lot? Is this your idea of protecting Western Civilization?
Glenn’s comment that Biden’s support for Israel may cost him the election due to anger on the Left is confusing - who are the Left going to vote for, if not Biden?
Listening to Norman Finkelstein on Gaza provides an excellent example of how letting someone speak their mind allows them to hang themselves on their own rope. Finkelstein speaks the same Leftist platitudes you would expect, and argues from authority as the offspring of Holocaust survivors, while coming across as removed from reality.
Happy news that Coleman is engaged. Congratulations!