Norman Finkelstein – The "Triple Scam" of Wokeness
My guest this week is the political scientist and wildly prolific author Norman Finkelstein. If you know Norman’s work and history, you’ll know that some view him as a controversial figure. His criticisms of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the cultural legacy of the Holocaust, the Democratic Party, and any number of other hot-button topics have made him virtually persona non grata in mainstream circles. I’ve even received emails from viewers asking me not to post this conversation, despite the fact that, until now, no one except Norman, me, and my team knew what was said in it. Perhaps you think his ideas are so toxic that he should be silenced. Clearly, I don’t think he should be.
Trying to capture this expansive conversation in a neat summary is impossible. Norman doesn’t hold back, and we range from his public disputes with Alan Dershowitz, personal heroes of his like Paul Robeson and Noam Chomsky, the shallowness of progressive wokeness, and the comparative merits of past Democratic presidents. Norman identifies as a communist (with a small-C), and so I expected we would have some fairly sharp disagreements. No doubt we do when it comes to economic matters. But I was surprised how often I found myself nodding in agreement with his sharp-tongued critiques. What can it mean that this perhaps idiosyncratic but doubtlessly committed man of the left and I agree on so much?
I expect you’ll all have a lot to say about this one. I await your comments with bated breath!
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Featured Content from the Manhattan Institute
Carolyn Gorman on how to build a mental-health system that saves people like Jordan Neely.
0:00 Has Norman been shut out of mainstream political debates?
7:54 Norman’s conflict with Alan Dershowitz
16:50 Is Israel an apartheid state?
19:25 Identifying with Paul Robeson
33:08 Norman’s new book, I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It!
44:42 Norman: Wokeness is a “triple scam”
53:28 What’s become of Angela Davis?
1:00:05 Cornel West's chosen path
1:09:01 Obama’s self-proclaimed “neat trick”
1:24:38 The political intelligence of Carter, Clinton, and Obama
1:38:10 South Carolina 2020: a case study in identity politics
1:47:24 Would Bernie have won in 2016?
Recorded April 19, 2023
Links and Readings
Norman’s new book, I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It!: Heretical Thoughts on Identity Politics, Cancel Culture, and Academic Freedom
Norman’s book, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering
Norman’s book, Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History
Norman’s book, Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom
Norman’s book, A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth
Norman’s book, What Ghandi Says: On Nonviolence, Resistance, and Courage
Norman’s book, “This Time We Went Too Far”: Truth and Consequences on the Gaza Invasion
Norman’s book, Knowing Too Much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel is Coming to an End
Norman’s book, The Rise and Fall of Palestine: A Personal Account of the Intifada Years
Joan Peters’s book, From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine
Alan Dershowitz’s book, The Case for Israel
Alan Dershowitz and Norman’s debate on Democracy Now
Michael Barnett, Nathan Brown, Marc Lynch, and Shibley Telhami’s Foreign Affairs piece, “Israel’s One-State Reality”
Paul Robeson singing “The Four Insurgent Generals”
The Letters of Rosa Luxembourg
Mark Doss performing “Ol’ Man River”
Paul Robeson’s autobiography, Here I Stand
W.E.B. Du Bois’s book, The Philadelphia Negro
W.E.B. DuBois’s book, Black Reconstruction in America, 1860-1880
Tom Wolfe’s New York Magazine essay, “Radical Chic: That Party at Lenny’s”
Angela Davis’s 2022 appearance at the University of South Carolina
Barack Obama’s memoir, A Promised Land
Bill Clinton’s memoir, My Life
Jimmy Carter’s memoir, Keeping Faith
David Axelrod’s memoir, Believer: My Forty Years in Politics
Frederick Douglass’s third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass
Norman Finkelstein – The "Triple Scam" of Wokeness
A few points:
1.) I will give credit where it is due. I thought NF was open to Glenn's criticism (I wish Glenn would have given more of it!).
2.) To call Israel an apartheid state is asinine. Israeli-Arabs have rights. NON ISRAELI Arabs are allowed to work in Israel but are not treated the same way as Israeli Arabs (why would they - they are not Israeli citizens!) The non-Israeli Arabs art treated commensurate with their aggression against the Israeli citizenry.
3.) I understand Glenn relating to NF on being attacked from with in due to the criticisms of the communities to who they belong. However, I see two major differences between Glenn and NF on this ...
A.) Glenn is often right. NF is often foolish on his comments on Israel and the Holocaust. Candace Owens often gets hate for her critique of the black community from black people; in her case (like NF) she often deserves the response she gets for her bombastic approach.
B.) Glenn has a strong commitment to the black community; his criticisms come from a place of love. NF is ethnicity Jewish and has made vigorous conscientious efforts to distance himself from Jewish peoplehood (he despises the concept).
4.) You can tell a person according to whom they praise. NF worships at the feet of Noam Chomsky. It would be understandable if it were in the realm of linguistics. It is his (Chomsky 's) activism that FN styles himself in. To his credit NF opposes the woke. However, that moral bank account is still far in the red with his comments on Israel, the Holocaust, Charlie Hebdo, etc.
5.) When I was in youth group I remember a kid who was a anarchist/extreme leftist. He was howling about Jews focusing on the Holocaust so they gave him a platform to state his case and he mitigated it's (the Holocaust) relevance and importance because more people were killed in other genocides. NF reminds me of this kid. I would not classify him (NF) as a self-hating Jew. I would put him in the camp of the many other atheists of Jewish ethnicity who desire to be a "citizen of the world" and think that can only be achieved by vigorously separating themselves from Jews and specific concerns of the Jewish community (Israel and the Holocaust). You can see this approach peppered through out the conversation with Glenn where NF went through a lot of effort to point out how he was not specially interested in Jews or matters to Jewish interests.
6.) All this being said I don't necessarily disagree with NF on all counts of Israel and the Holocaust. I acknowledge that both subjects can be used to try to manipulate people into agreement based on the threat of being labeled antisemitic.
However, there is a difference between legitimately criticizing Israel and labeling it "satanic" and it's actions "a Holocaust" just as one could say disproportionately focusing on the Holocaust can be a disservice to acknowledging other tragedies and genocides inflicted on other cultures without calling it "the Holocaust industry." Play stupid games win stupid prizes. It's amazing how misguided intelligent people can say and believe in things so dumb.
I will also say that I have read most if not all of Alen Dershowitz's books on Israel. I found them worthwhile and often convincing, but I acknowledge that the academic rigor he is probably capable of was not reflected in the material in the books.
7.) I don't put the importance that some put on the Holocaust with regard to how it is unique in it's nature and implementation. However, I would make a couple observations which I think make it unique from other genocides (not that it diminishes the atrocity are importance of other genocides). I am not aware of citizens of THEIR OWN country being targeted for their ethnicity for genocide. I am also not aware of a country with such high standards for civility and culture (Germany) inflicting such barbarity on the world.
Welp add us to the august list of people who disagree in the comments.
I will only add that:
1 - there is a distinction between and idea and a moral judgment and in the later case the actions of the person passing judgment do matter.
2 - as much as I respect Glenn and enjoy his commentary, his opinion on how to run an business would mean far less to me than that of someone who has actually done it, and I suspect he would agree with this sentiment.