My guest this week is my great friend Rajiv Sethi, economist at Barnard and Columbia University and proprietor of the newsletter Imperfect Information. Rajiv is an expert on prediction markets, among other things, so he’s been keeping a close eye on the bets people have been placing on next week’s(!) presidential election.
Speaking of FIRE (which Rajiv did at the beginning), good article in the Chronicle of Higher Education about free speech at Harvard (or the lack of it) that celebrates FIRE as one of the few organizations willing to stand by the principles of free speech regardless of politics:
It also read to me as a good reminder to commenters here that if we're committed to Glenn's community being a place of free inquiry, we need to do so regardless of whose ax is being gored.
I am more in line with subscribor, Chris, and quote him; "I disagree with Glenn about Coates as well, but I respect him and I'm interested in his point of view. I'd hate for Glenn to start thinking twice about sharing his thoughts on a topic for fear of losing subscribers." We should all want to hear the other fellow's opinion. We are Australian's who love and support the USA. Some of us DISAGREE with the US on its utilization of NATO in Ukraine, but we stand firm with the USA and Israel on the macro-international issues. We don't ever throw the baby out with the bath water. Glenn Loury is a brilliant man, he was at his best in the recent interview he had with Peter Robinson of Uncommon Knowledge.
Great episode Glenn. I hope we hear more from the guest in future episodes, really level headed and thoughtful discussion on a few very interesting topics. I'd love to hear you guys do a deeper dive into market mechanics on a future episode, or maybe have a 3-person conversation with John on the Israel/Palestine issue.
Rajiv: Thank you for joining Glenn and not only engaging with him in your area of expertise but also on Coates and The Messages. I also think it's awesome that you took the time to read the comments section here.
With regard to that, I agree with you that some of the criticism of Glenn in the comments section has been uncivil and was meant to shut down discussion of the book rather than encourage healthy discussion. I agree with you about that being wrong.
At the same time, I do think John was closer to the truth than Glenn in his reading of the message. And I say that as someone who thinks that Coates is essentially right in describing apartheid like conditions on the West Bank and who even believes that America should cut aid to Israel until it withdraws from most of the West Bank settlements: https://gordonstrause.substack.com/p/israel-and-the-palestinians
Nevertheless, I found The Message's deliberate refusal to even wrestle with the context for why those conditions exist make the book not only less powerful than it would otherwise be but actually counterproductive as well. I try to explain that more fully here:
I'd also encourage you to read this exchange I had with another Glenn reader about the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, which led to twice as many deaths of civilians and children than Israel has killed in its entire 100 year conflict with the Palestinians:
War and the destruction and loss of rights that come with it is undoubtedly horrible. But political leaders are sometimes confronted with having to choose between horrors. It's not "moral clarity' to ignore that rather than wrestling with it.
I guess that depends on if you value Glenn's voice as an honest thinker, or if you tune in to have your own views massaged. I disagree with Glenn about Coates as well, but I respect him and I'm interested in his point of view. I'd hate for Glenn to start thinking twice about sharing his thoughts on a topic for fear of losing subscribers. Audience capture is a serious issue in this realm of media.
Candidly I don’t think anyone cares whether or not you cancel your subscription. At least I know that I don’t. My guidance is that you have to do what you have to do. There’s way too much narcissism in the comments section here when it comes to this particular issue.
Since everyone seems to be just endlessly complaining these days in the comments section here, I'd also like to publicly air my grievances. I joined TGS thinking that this would be a genuine heterodox community. But surprise, surprise. Much of the so-called heterodox community is really only contrarian when it comes matters involving race and culture, regurgitating the same establishment talking points when it comes to geopolitical issues.
Even on race and culture, most people in the heterodox space are only clear minded when it comes to pointing out the obvious self-absorbed narcissism and victimhood complex of the people with three-word names, like Michael Eric Dyson and Nikole Hannah Jones. For some strange reason the topic of Israel seems to trigger large numbers of TGS readers to the point where seemingly half the comments here involve people complaining that Glenn offended their intersectional identity as a Jewish American and how they're grappling with the deep existential question of whether or not he deserves to be cancelled. Even a supposed stalwart of free speech like Amy Wax isn't immune to this mysterious power, having had to catch herself from falling into the same trap of naming calling against people whose ideas on Israel were contrary to her own during her recent conversation with Glenn. Racist! Terrorist! Anti-Semite! What's the difference? After all, anyone who disagrees with you is obviously a Bad Person.
Others are free to offer their advice on the matter, but personally I could care less whether or not you choose to remain a subscriber. The world will go on just fine either way. Your intersectional identity and your personal grievances are far less interesting to most other people than they are to you. For what it's worth, I no more care about someone's deeply felt self-identity as a Jew than I do about Nikole Hannah Jones' deeply felt self-identity as a Black woman.
The only reason the history of this apartheid is "complex" is because Zionists have been very effective at convoluting a simple injustice with relentless propaganda and lobbying. Zionists have been able to weave a fantastical mythology of the modern genocidal apartheid state of Israel that even exceeds the density of bullshit that the mythology of the Torah has about the ancient genocidal slaver state of Israel!!!
The only reason the history of this apartheid is "complex" is because Zionists have been very effective at convoluting a simple injustice with relentless propaganda and lobbying. Zionists have been able to weave a fantastical mythology of the modern genocidal apartheid state of Israel that even exceeds the density of bullshit that the mythology of the Torah has about the ancient genocidal slaver state of Israel!!!
Speaking of FIRE (which Rajiv did at the beginning), good article in the Chronicle of Higher Education about free speech at Harvard (or the lack of it) that celebrates FIRE as one of the few organizations willing to stand by the principles of free speech regardless of politics:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-free-speech-failed-at-harvard-and-how-to-rescue-it
It also read to me as a good reminder to commenters here that if we're committed to Glenn's community being a place of free inquiry, we need to do so regardless of whose ax is being gored.
A very stimulating conversation about fascinating subjects!
I am more in line with subscribor, Chris, and quote him; "I disagree with Glenn about Coates as well, but I respect him and I'm interested in his point of view. I'd hate for Glenn to start thinking twice about sharing his thoughts on a topic for fear of losing subscribers." We should all want to hear the other fellow's opinion. We are Australian's who love and support the USA. Some of us DISAGREE with the US on its utilization of NATO in Ukraine, but we stand firm with the USA and Israel on the macro-international issues. We don't ever throw the baby out with the bath water. Glenn Loury is a brilliant man, he was at his best in the recent interview he had with Peter Robinson of Uncommon Knowledge.
Great episode Glenn. I hope we hear more from the guest in future episodes, really level headed and thoughtful discussion on a few very interesting topics. I'd love to hear you guys do a deeper dive into market mechanics on a future episode, or maybe have a 3-person conversation with John on the Israel/Palestine issue.
Really enjoyed this Glenn, thank you for having me on!
Rajiv: Thank you for joining Glenn and not only engaging with him in your area of expertise but also on Coates and The Messages. I also think it's awesome that you took the time to read the comments section here.
With regard to that, I agree with you that some of the criticism of Glenn in the comments section has been uncivil and was meant to shut down discussion of the book rather than encourage healthy discussion. I agree with you about that being wrong.
At the same time, I do think John was closer to the truth than Glenn in his reading of the message. And I say that as someone who thinks that Coates is essentially right in describing apartheid like conditions on the West Bank and who even believes that America should cut aid to Israel until it withdraws from most of the West Bank settlements: https://gordonstrause.substack.com/p/israel-and-the-palestinians
Nevertheless, I found The Message's deliberate refusal to even wrestle with the context for why those conditions exist make the book not only less powerful than it would otherwise be but actually counterproductive as well. I try to explain that more fully here:
https://substack.com/@gordonst/note/c-73521795
I'd also encourage you to read this exchange I had with another Glenn reader about the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, which led to twice as many deaths of civilians and children than Israel has killed in its entire 100 year conflict with the Palestinians:
https://glennloury.substack.com/p/john-mcwhorter-glenn-and-john-throw/comment/74252890
War and the destruction and loss of rights that come with it is undoubtedly horrible. But political leaders are sometimes confronted with having to choose between horrors. It's not "moral clarity' to ignore that rather than wrestling with it.
Thank you for the references Gordon, I will take a look once I've read the chapter myself. Bit swamped until the election.
Thank you also for your tone, which I appreciate.
It was a great listen, thank you!
I guess that depends on if you value Glenn's voice as an honest thinker, or if you tune in to have your own views massaged. I disagree with Glenn about Coates as well, but I respect him and I'm interested in his point of view. I'd hate for Glenn to start thinking twice about sharing his thoughts on a topic for fear of losing subscribers. Audience capture is a serious issue in this realm of media.
Candidly I don’t think anyone cares whether or not you cancel your subscription. At least I know that I don’t. My guidance is that you have to do what you have to do. There’s way too much narcissism in the comments section here when it comes to this particular issue.
Since everyone seems to be just endlessly complaining these days in the comments section here, I'd also like to publicly air my grievances. I joined TGS thinking that this would be a genuine heterodox community. But surprise, surprise. Much of the so-called heterodox community is really only contrarian when it comes matters involving race and culture, regurgitating the same establishment talking points when it comes to geopolitical issues.
Even on race and culture, most people in the heterodox space are only clear minded when it comes to pointing out the obvious self-absorbed narcissism and victimhood complex of the people with three-word names, like Michael Eric Dyson and Nikole Hannah Jones. For some strange reason the topic of Israel seems to trigger large numbers of TGS readers to the point where seemingly half the comments here involve people complaining that Glenn offended their intersectional identity as a Jewish American and how they're grappling with the deep existential question of whether or not he deserves to be cancelled. Even a supposed stalwart of free speech like Amy Wax isn't immune to this mysterious power, having had to catch herself from falling into the same trap of naming calling against people whose ideas on Israel were contrary to her own during her recent conversation with Glenn. Racist! Terrorist! Anti-Semite! What's the difference? After all, anyone who disagrees with you is obviously a Bad Person.
Others are free to offer their advice on the matter, but personally I could care less whether or not you choose to remain a subscriber. The world will go on just fine either way. Your intersectional identity and your personal grievances are far less interesting to most other people than they are to you. For what it's worth, I no more care about someone's deeply felt self-identity as a Jew than I do about Nikole Hannah Jones' deeply felt self-identity as a Black woman.
I'm done with narcissists!
The only reason the history of this apartheid is "complex" is because Zionists have been very effective at convoluting a simple injustice with relentless propaganda and lobbying. Zionists have been able to weave a fantastical mythology of the modern genocidal apartheid state of Israel that even exceeds the density of bullshit that the mythology of the Torah has about the ancient genocidal slaver state of Israel!!!
Well said, Yan Shen!
The only reason the history of this apartheid is "complex" is because Zionists have been very effective at convoluting a simple injustice with relentless propaganda and lobbying. Zionists have been able to weave a fantastical mythology of the modern genocidal apartheid state of Israel that even exceeds the density of bullshit that the mythology of the Torah has about the ancient genocidal slaver state of Israel!!!