This week, my guest is Robert Wright, journalist, author of many books, and proprietor of the Nonzero Newsletter and its podcast. Bob’s always been ahead of the curve. He wrote a seminal popular book about evolutionary psychology, he was producing online video conversations before most people had heard of “podcasts,” and he had the foresight to offer me my first online show, the original incarnation of The Glenn Show.
Interesting that Robert totally ignores the question "Are there any good reasons for Hegseth"
Ugh. Lots to disagree with from Robert (none of the quotes are direct, I'm paraphrasing)
"Muslims mad at US because 'we're killing Muslims *somewhere*'". Now do Jews. Or Christians. Where did all the Jews and Christians in the Mideast go? Does the entire world really divide into warring tribes based on religion? Sounds like a massive world war (jihad?) with 2.4 billion Christians (and 14 million Jews) against 2.0 billion Muslims. Of course, the Christians have all the nukes, so it's a lopsided war. For that matter, where's the terrorist attacks on China for the Uyghurs? Sorry, I can't take that argument seriously.
"Within 36 hours after Oct. 7, Israel was secure again". So what? Would you say "3 hours after Jan 6, the Capitol was secure"? And therefore, "move along, nothing to see here"? That's an extraordinarily silly statement. "How long does the lesson need to go on?" How about: Until Hamas surrenders and frees the hostages? Seems like a reasonable end point to me.
"Gaza has lost about 2% of it's population, therefore terrorism will continue." I note that Japan lost about 4% of it's population in WW-II -- and a significant number via deliberate targeting of civilian population centers. And for the last 75 years has been a staunch US ally. Where's the Japanese terrorist?
"There's war crimes in Gaza [presumably by Israel]". Of course there's war crimes in Gaza. Taking of hostages? Keeping military assets in hospitals, mosques, and schools. But wait, those are Hamas.
"Israel doesn't care if people like them". Agreed. And given Robert's attacks on Israel, I agree with them 100%. Some people are just going to dislike Israel; there's no point in trying to build bridges to people who aren't acting in good faith. And then there's groups like Iran and their clients; there's no point trying to get on their good side.
Seriously, Robert is about as biased as it's possible to be. I'm glad you pushed back, but really.... I'd argue Robert is much worse than Amy Wax in terms of biased arguments.
Glenn, you keep saying things about Trump's victory on 5-Nov-2024 such as, "wide margin" and "landslide".
I thought I had already provided enough data to stop such talk:
A few thoughts (and facts) on Trump's "landslide" and "mandate"
(Current) 118th Congress: 222 Republicans and 213 Democrats in the House
49 Republicans and 51 Democrats in the Senate
Prospective 119th Congress: 220 Republicans and 215 Democrats in the House
53 Republicans and 47 Democrats in the Senate
The Republicans will have a *smaller* majority in the US House than they did in the current (118th) congress. And several of their seats will be decided in special elections, assuming certain Trump picks for cabinet offices are confirmed: The majority could shrink further.
Republicans gained four Senate seats in Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia (Joe Manchin retired). With the seats up for election (33 Class 1 seats and one Class 2 seat) as follows: 20 Democrats, 4 independents who caucus with the Senate Democrats, and 10 Republicans. With a 10-24 advantage for Republicans, two razor-close seats (Tester in Montana and Brown in Ohio) held by Democrats, and the retirement of Democrat Joe Manchin in West Virgina, the results are hardly surprising. Does this represent a mandate?
Hardly.
And the Presidential election results. Although Trump won a clear victory (1.5% on the popular vote; 312 to 226 in the Electoral College) this was no landslide by any measure.
You could only call it a landslide if you considered every election since 1924, except the closest 6 elections, to be landslides, which is obviously absurd. It was the fourth closest margin in the popular vote since 1924 (26 presidential elections; only 1960, 1968, and 2000 were closer).
So: No landslide. And no mandate as far as I can see. Politics as usual except for the personal character of the new POTUS. We shall see.
I worry quite a bit about the competence of the people being chosen for appointment to high office (RFK Jr. and Dr. Oz (FFS) spring to mind). The emphasis seems to be on loyalty to Trump rather than competence or cv. We shall see.
Robert Wright bloviating on getting a deal with a weakened Iran...........and if he's wrong well he's wrong. What a putz! Oh man I missed the discussion between Friedman and Wright. That must have been fascinating.
I don't know where Glenn gets his "news" but the debate he's looking for is out there every day. Yeah it gets emotional and mean spirited at times and it takes a strong stomach to try to listen to some of others views, but make no mistake it is there.
No discussion here of the rapes and baby burning and open objective of Hamas to kill all Jews. How does one "over-react" to that.
"Forced relocation" becomes warning people to move out to avoid the consequences of planned military actions.
Sinwar clearly wanted to kill all the Jews.........what's Wright talking about?
For everyone in Israel who wants to kill all Palestinians there are thousands of Islamists who want to kill all the Jews.
Yes, Israel believes that "people" are going to hate them no matter what they do. Is there really any doubt about that given what's come to the fore since 10/7. Think Australia, Netherlands, Ireland, France, Canada, The UK, Norway........
Trump tried to see Putin's POV in his first term and he was lambasted as Putin's puppet.
All I can say at this point is thank goodness Bibi didn't listen to Biden or the UN or the French, English, Irish, and the Robert Wrights of this world. Bibi will go down in history as the Churchill of our times.
Merry Christmas, Happy Chanuka and Happy New Year to all.
The enemies of Israel (the only liberal democracy in the middle east; the rest are dictatorships, medieval theocracies, and failed states: Whoo-hoo, those are the models I want for all the people of the middle east (because I *love* them!) /sarcasm) have only negotiated in good faith when they have been handed a proper, thorough-going defeat by the IDF. See: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and now, finally, Hamas (sort of in good faith) and Hezbollah (we can hope that the Houthis (you know, those guys that are executing gays and brought back chattel slavery) will soon follow).
No other country would stand for Hamas and Hezbollah on their border. No other country would be *expected* to do so.
Hamas has vowed to do 7-Oct-2023 over and over again for as long as they are capable of doing it. Why would Israel leave them capable of it?
Wright's minimization of 7-Oct-2024, the worse act of genocide against Jews since WWII, is despicable and throws the rest of anything he says about the conflict into very deep suspicion.
Same old tired Zionist bullshit, incapable of taking a critical look at yourself. The whole world has got it wrong, they all "hate" you simply because you are Jewish. Supremacism, entitlement, impunity, Zionism's defining characteristics! Israel represents the worst of humanity, the malignant marriage of perpetual victimhood with systemic hate and uncontrolled violence
Robert Wright's views on AI are under-cooked, even immature. His comments about China are uncertain assumptions and underestimations. He does not discuss the history behind the Ukraine war, why not? Ukraine is being horribly defeated, let me provide a hint why. Young Ukrainian men are in short supply, ask why? The Europeans don't want their 'boots on the ground' and neither do the USA. Moving to contemporary US politics, and Wright is still wanting. His assessment of Pete Hegseth is woefully dishonest and defamatory, he underestimates DJT. Robert Wrights infantile and limited geo-political philosophy would be ruinous to Isreal and the Middle East. The best thing the Wright could do is retire. I note that Glenn Loury welcomes Wright as a friend and disses Amy Wax. I wouldn't.
A great episode! Conflicts like Gaza and Ukraine are difficult and complex to discuss. The world is increasingly unstable. Despotic governments falling left, right and centre, nuclear hostilities becoming more likely, even the threat by Bill Gates et al of the next global pandemic starting next year in Brazil (SEERS, a polio-like disease that will affect children)... I wish you all a blessed Christmas and fruitful 2025.
Glenn says: “People say the following, and it befuddles me. They say, if Israel wanted to kill them all, they would already been dead because it has the capacity to do so, so it can't be genocide. How's that an argument? You didn't kill them all and therefore you didn't cross a line?”
Glenn, I am befuddled by your befuddlement. When the IDF warns civilian populations to move out before bombing a location, how can that possibly represent genocidal intent?
If genocide was the intent, they could’ve gotten it done in the first few weeks, tops. They did not. There’s nothing to be befuddled by.
Notice Glenn doesn't say this is genocide. Rather he suggests that arguments it is not because Israel could easily kill more civilians do not partake of a standard more useful than that giving rise to the accusations. His tone is more exasperated than befuddled.
Ironically, I think it is quite possible that Israel is doing the right thing in Gaza and the wrong thing in the west bank. I don't think that is precisely what Jacob Seigal says but close-starting at 55:30 of this Fifth Column episode (how is it that platforms built around long form podcasts–substack included–don't give a convenient facility for creqating timestamped links. To resort to my own extreme metaphor–that seems like a crime against humanity to me.)
I think Robert Wright is a decent foil against pat foreign policy narratives–albeit he spins some of his own. Whether continuing scorched earth in Gaza is good, even for Israel, and the problems posed by metaphorical apartheid and settlements in the West Bank are reasonable issues. However, if Glenn wants to engage someone who has actual arguments for the approach Israel is taking in Gaza, and who is equally skeptical of the American/Israeli relationship in precisely the opposite way as Robert Wright then he should get Jacob Seigal on the show!
Genocides can happen with gas chambers. Or machetes. Or they can be carried out with 2,000lb bombs and aid blockades. New reports by Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and Medecins Sans Frontieres all agree that a genocide is taking place in Gaza. But for our media the genocide has become just another routine news item, buried on the inside pages.
the credibility of those organizations is non-existant. I bet the southern poverty law center thinks its genocide too.
in any event, the argument Glenn contends with is not the means, but the opportunity. Israel has the opportunity to have killed far more and the results instead indicate brutal urban warfare with irregulars and not genocide. Glenn is right that not having killed everyone does not insulate Israel's conduct from condemnation, but he carefully, perhaps conveniently, doesn't speculate on what the actual low bound might be.
Wright's point that enough have been killed and wounded to inspire another generation of terrorists is reasoned. But the Troubles ended not because the cycle of retribution ended first, but when the possibility of economic success independent of religious nationalism became clear.
But the one thing you need for genocide is to significantly decrease the population (that's kinda in the definition). It's not clear that the population of Gaza has decreased significantly. Their growth rate (pre October 7) was over 2%. So, it's a really ineffective genocide. And we're back to capability -- could Israel kill more Gazans if that was their intent? Seems obvious that the answer is YES.
Am I supposed to believe the Zionist filth that you spew … or my lying eyes. Do you believe the Zionist filth, spin, that you spew? Do you read, watch, listen to anything, anyone, other than the likes of Netanyahu, Smotrich, Gvir and the rest of the zionist far right media? They could not have been more explicit in their genocidal and ethnic cleansing intent. How many do you think remain uncounted under the rubble?
In case you haven't come across this clown before, he's a self hating jew who likes to hear himself talk. Glenn (and John) tore him a new a--hole in a Q&A several months ago for some of his blatant antisemitic babble.
Interesting that Robert totally ignores the question "Are there any good reasons for Hegseth"
Ugh. Lots to disagree with from Robert (none of the quotes are direct, I'm paraphrasing)
"Muslims mad at US because 'we're killing Muslims *somewhere*'". Now do Jews. Or Christians. Where did all the Jews and Christians in the Mideast go? Does the entire world really divide into warring tribes based on religion? Sounds like a massive world war (jihad?) with 2.4 billion Christians (and 14 million Jews) against 2.0 billion Muslims. Of course, the Christians have all the nukes, so it's a lopsided war. For that matter, where's the terrorist attacks on China for the Uyghurs? Sorry, I can't take that argument seriously.
"Within 36 hours after Oct. 7, Israel was secure again". So what? Would you say "3 hours after Jan 6, the Capitol was secure"? And therefore, "move along, nothing to see here"? That's an extraordinarily silly statement. "How long does the lesson need to go on?" How about: Until Hamas surrenders and frees the hostages? Seems like a reasonable end point to me.
"Gaza has lost about 2% of it's population, therefore terrorism will continue." I note that Japan lost about 4% of it's population in WW-II -- and a significant number via deliberate targeting of civilian population centers. And for the last 75 years has been a staunch US ally. Where's the Japanese terrorist?
"There's war crimes in Gaza [presumably by Israel]". Of course there's war crimes in Gaza. Taking of hostages? Keeping military assets in hospitals, mosques, and schools. But wait, those are Hamas.
"Israel doesn't care if people like them". Agreed. And given Robert's attacks on Israel, I agree with them 100%. Some people are just going to dislike Israel; there's no point in trying to build bridges to people who aren't acting in good faith. And then there's groups like Iran and their clients; there's no point trying to get on their good side.
Seriously, Robert is about as biased as it's possible to be. I'm glad you pushed back, but really.... I'd argue Robert is much worse than Amy Wax in terms of biased arguments.
Glenn, you keep saying things about Trump's victory on 5-Nov-2024 such as, "wide margin" and "landslide".
I thought I had already provided enough data to stop such talk:
A few thoughts (and facts) on Trump's "landslide" and "mandate"
(Current) 118th Congress: 222 Republicans and 213 Democrats in the House
49 Republicans and 51 Democrats in the Senate
Prospective 119th Congress: 220 Republicans and 215 Democrats in the House
53 Republicans and 47 Democrats in the Senate
The Republicans will have a *smaller* majority in the US House than they did in the current (118th) congress. And several of their seats will be decided in special elections, assuming certain Trump picks for cabinet offices are confirmed: The majority could shrink further.
Republicans gained four Senate seats in Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia (Joe Manchin retired). With the seats up for election (33 Class 1 seats and one Class 2 seat) as follows: 20 Democrats, 4 independents who caucus with the Senate Democrats, and 10 Republicans. With a 10-24 advantage for Republicans, two razor-close seats (Tester in Montana and Brown in Ohio) held by Democrats, and the retirement of Democrat Joe Manchin in West Virgina, the results are hardly surprising. Does this represent a mandate?
Hardly.
And the Presidential election results. Although Trump won a clear victory (1.5% on the popular vote; 312 to 226 in the Electoral College) this was no landslide by any measure.
You could only call it a landslide if you considered every election since 1924, except the closest 6 elections, to be landslides, which is obviously absurd. It was the fourth closest margin in the popular vote since 1924 (26 presidential elections; only 1960, 1968, and 2000 were closer).
So: No landslide. And no mandate as far as I can see. Politics as usual except for the personal character of the new POTUS. We shall see.
I worry quite a bit about the competence of the people being chosen for appointment to high office (RFK Jr. and Dr. Oz (FFS) spring to mind). The emphasis seems to be on loyalty to Trump rather than competence or cv. We shall see.
Robert Wright bloviating on getting a deal with a weakened Iran...........and if he's wrong well he's wrong. What a putz! Oh man I missed the discussion between Friedman and Wright. That must have been fascinating.
I don't know where Glenn gets his "news" but the debate he's looking for is out there every day. Yeah it gets emotional and mean spirited at times and it takes a strong stomach to try to listen to some of others views, but make no mistake it is there.
No discussion here of the rapes and baby burning and open objective of Hamas to kill all Jews. How does one "over-react" to that.
"Forced relocation" becomes warning people to move out to avoid the consequences of planned military actions.
Sinwar clearly wanted to kill all the Jews.........what's Wright talking about?
For everyone in Israel who wants to kill all Palestinians there are thousands of Islamists who want to kill all the Jews.
Yes, Israel believes that "people" are going to hate them no matter what they do. Is there really any doubt about that given what's come to the fore since 10/7. Think Australia, Netherlands, Ireland, France, Canada, The UK, Norway........
Trump tried to see Putin's POV in his first term and he was lambasted as Putin's puppet.
All I can say at this point is thank goodness Bibi didn't listen to Biden or the UN or the French, English, Irish, and the Robert Wrights of this world. Bibi will go down in history as the Churchill of our times.
Merry Christmas, Happy Chanuka and Happy New Year to all.
The enemies of Israel (the only liberal democracy in the middle east; the rest are dictatorships, medieval theocracies, and failed states: Whoo-hoo, those are the models I want for all the people of the middle east (because I *love* them!) /sarcasm) have only negotiated in good faith when they have been handed a proper, thorough-going defeat by the IDF. See: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and now, finally, Hamas (sort of in good faith) and Hezbollah (we can hope that the Houthis (you know, those guys that are executing gays and brought back chattel slavery) will soon follow).
No other country would stand for Hamas and Hezbollah on their border. No other country would be *expected* to do so.
Hamas has vowed to do 7-Oct-2023 over and over again for as long as they are capable of doing it. Why would Israel leave them capable of it?
Wright's minimization of 7-Oct-2024, the worse act of genocide against Jews since WWII, is despicable and throws the rest of anything he says about the conflict into very deep suspicion.
Same old tired Zionist bullshit, incapable of taking a critical look at yourself. The whole world has got it wrong, they all "hate" you simply because you are Jewish. Supremacism, entitlement, impunity, Zionism's defining characteristics! Israel represents the worst of humanity, the malignant marriage of perpetual victimhood with systemic hate and uncontrolled violence
He's baaack! Please crawl back into your hole and stay there.
Robert Wright's views on AI are under-cooked, even immature. His comments about China are uncertain assumptions and underestimations. He does not discuss the history behind the Ukraine war, why not? Ukraine is being horribly defeated, let me provide a hint why. Young Ukrainian men are in short supply, ask why? The Europeans don't want their 'boots on the ground' and neither do the USA. Moving to contemporary US politics, and Wright is still wanting. His assessment of Pete Hegseth is woefully dishonest and defamatory, he underestimates DJT. Robert Wrights infantile and limited geo-political philosophy would be ruinous to Isreal and the Middle East. The best thing the Wright could do is retire. I note that Glenn Loury welcomes Wright as a friend and disses Amy Wax. I wouldn't.
A great episode! Conflicts like Gaza and Ukraine are difficult and complex to discuss. The world is increasingly unstable. Despotic governments falling left, right and centre, nuclear hostilities becoming more likely, even the threat by Bill Gates et al of the next global pandemic starting next year in Brazil (SEERS, a polio-like disease that will affect children)... I wish you all a blessed Christmas and fruitful 2025.
Glenn says: “People say the following, and it befuddles me. They say, if Israel wanted to kill them all, they would already been dead because it has the capacity to do so, so it can't be genocide. How's that an argument? You didn't kill them all and therefore you didn't cross a line?”
Glenn, I am befuddled by your befuddlement. When the IDF warns civilian populations to move out before bombing a location, how can that possibly represent genocidal intent?
If genocide was the intent, they could’ve gotten it done in the first few weeks, tops. They did not. There’s nothing to be befuddled by.
Notice Glenn doesn't say this is genocide. Rather he suggests that arguments it is not because Israel could easily kill more civilians do not partake of a standard more useful than that giving rise to the accusations. His tone is more exasperated than befuddled.
Ironically, I think it is quite possible that Israel is doing the right thing in Gaza and the wrong thing in the west bank. I don't think that is precisely what Jacob Seigal says but close-starting at 55:30 of this Fifth Column episode (how is it that platforms built around long form podcasts–substack included–don't give a convenient facility for creqating timestamped links. To resort to my own extreme metaphor–that seems like a crime against humanity to me.)
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5yF4fWvrMxEgOAJZ4TMAkU?si=JVGy5Yb4RWWukh3OvM1xXA&nd=1&dlsi=1204135210e84040
I think Robert Wright is a decent foil against pat foreign policy narratives–albeit he spins some of his own. Whether continuing scorched earth in Gaza is good, even for Israel, and the problems posed by metaphorical apartheid and settlements in the West Bank are reasonable issues. However, if Glenn wants to engage someone who has actual arguments for the approach Israel is taking in Gaza, and who is equally skeptical of the American/Israeli relationship in precisely the opposite way as Robert Wright then he should get Jacob Seigal on the show!
Genocides can happen with gas chambers. Or machetes. Or they can be carried out with 2,000lb bombs and aid blockades. New reports by Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and Medecins Sans Frontieres all agree that a genocide is taking place in Gaza. But for our media the genocide has become just another routine news item, buried on the inside pages.
https://substack.com/@jonathancook/note/c-82989131
the credibility of those organizations is non-existant. I bet the southern poverty law center thinks its genocide too.
in any event, the argument Glenn contends with is not the means, but the opportunity. Israel has the opportunity to have killed far more and the results instead indicate brutal urban warfare with irregulars and not genocide. Glenn is right that not having killed everyone does not insulate Israel's conduct from condemnation, but he carefully, perhaps conveniently, doesn't speculate on what the actual low bound might be.
Wright's point that enough have been killed and wounded to inspire another generation of terrorists is reasoned. But the Troubles ended not because the cycle of retribution ended first, but when the possibility of economic success independent of religious nationalism became clear.
But the one thing you need for genocide is to significantly decrease the population (that's kinda in the definition). It's not clear that the population of Gaza has decreased significantly. Their growth rate (pre October 7) was over 2%. So, it's a really ineffective genocide. And we're back to capability -- could Israel kill more Gazans if that was their intent? Seems obvious that the answer is YES.
Am I supposed to believe the Zionist filth that you spew … or my lying eyes. Do you believe the Zionist filth, spin, that you spew? Do you read, watch, listen to anything, anyone, other than the likes of Netanyahu, Smotrich, Gvir and the rest of the zionist far right media? They could not have been more explicit in their genocidal and ethnic cleansing intent. How many do you think remain uncounted under the rubble?
Not sure why you replied to my message, as you didn’t come remotely close to addressing my point, lol.
If you want to talk to yourself, you could just post your own standalone message.
In case you haven't come across this clown before, he's a self hating jew who likes to hear himself talk. Glenn (and John) tore him a new a--hole in a Q&A several months ago for some of his blatant antisemitic babble.
Unfortunately, it appears you are correct.....
Ha, I’ll have to go back and hear that, thanks.