I enjoyed this episode and definitely think you're on to something. Comedy, like the arts more broadly, has value on its own merits, but it can also be used to provide insights and/or open minds that might otherwise remain closed. While that is mostly theory when it comes to some of the statements you made in your opening remarks, I think there is a lengthy track record of comedians (stand-up, late night, actors) and other artists using their respective crafts to make political points, even when the viewpoints in question weren't as dominant as they appear to be now. I am happy to see some comedians (e.g. Dave Chapelle, Bill Maher) poke fun at the new orthodoxy, just as, for example, "The Babylon Bee" does in print and Tom MacDonald does with rap. I hope and expect that such countercultural artistic expressions will eventually end up proving your theory correct.
That was weird and a lot of fun. My jaw dropped as Dr. Loury went through his opening list. I'm not sure why, as I think those things are important to talk about. I guess it was the setting. The conversation ultimately drifted in other directions, but I think the opening served to make certain it wasn't a routine night of comedy.
I went back and rewatched Chappelle's "The Closer" before writing, as my comment has to do with the trans matter. When people say "truth to power," is power the rank-and-file Americans who "oppress" the trans agenda, or is power the Ivy League telling its 200 female swimmers they are not to complain about Lia Thomas?
I would have liked someone to ask the trans comedian if jokes at the expense of Lia Thomas would be out of bounds. If Lia Thomas is the culmination of the gay rights movement that began way back when, I think they overshot the target. Lia Thomas would be fair game, as I see it.
Like others, I felt the woman on the far right was a bit much, and still clinging to woke in a way fewer and fewer people seem willing to do. The man on the far left made the most comments that resonated with me.
A weird, interesting experiment, and I think Glenn, Coleman, and Roland pulled it off. (Though I noticed you dodged the Ivy League question!)
Classic TGS! I learned a great deal about how comedians perceive their role, the way in which they interact with audiences to "find the line," and how this requires sticking their necks out to cross it much of the time. There were great insights on how audiences have changed over time and the role of social media in creating a new form of mob that's everywhere, all the time. There were a few people who kept interrupting the other speakers and monopolizing air time (Judy), and that was distracting, but otherwise this was a perfect show!
The biggest contradiction I heard all night was from the super funny black lesbian comic. She made an argument to the effect that the reason why the white male comic didn't view comedy as a vehicle for social change (he just wanted to make people laugh) was because of his white privilege, i.e. he benefits from society as it is so there's no reason to use comedy to change it. I feel like her calling out his white privilege had a chilling effect on the conversation. Same thing when Judy couldn't help rant about Trump. In those instances, the women in the group showed that there was a belief system they expected others to conform to (white men are privileged, Trump is bad) and essentially threatened the male comics with social sanction if they didn't agree with this. Notably, no one pushed back against the commentary about white men having privilege, which in comedy is demonstrably true. But they were talking more broadly, which is up for debate, and they did not debate it! I think this speaks volumes to the current climate. Even these comics who like and can joke with each other were afraid to offend the black lesbian, since among them she sits the highest on the social disadvantage hierarchy.
Did anyone else pick up on this?
Then, I appreciated the trans woman's perspective on how jokes about trans people are a potential vehicle for normalization. The problem with trans people being off limits as a group is it treats them like they are too fragile to participate in a mainstream activity like comedy. However, I think it's fair to draw the line at jokes that deny people's gender identity as faking or mental illness, because that's mean spirited. I just think most comics aren't at the point of being able to tell effective jokes about trans people because no one knows where that line is. This is exacerbated because comics are threatened with cancellation for any joke about a trans person, mean-spirited or not.
Just listened. This worked amazingly well on every level. I hope a lot of people see it. I have a post scheduled for Saturday where I will strongly recommend it.
I think this was a lot of fun, but it’s a shame they couldn’t take on any of the issues that Glenn suggested, seemed like they were too scared? A lot of real lefties on here talking about white privilege and things like that.
Richard Pryor is the greatest comedian of all time in my opinion, but his views weren’t grounded in fact, they were based on life experience and he grew up in a brothel where his mom was a hooker. Read his biography, it’s a tragic dark life and comedy was a means of coping and escape.
The problem with discussing the topics that Glenn suggested is it would be harder to make the truth funny. The only way I could see the war on cops being funny would be a black comedian talking to the audience like they know the truth but it’s convenient for them to play the race card. You know, making fun of BLM or white privilege like they know they’re not real but boy is is useful. Something like they messed up at work and we’re gonna be fired but they play the race card to get out of it. I’m no comedy writer but I’m sure it could be done.
Contrast that though with how easy it is to tell jokes about the cops having it in for black kids, like Pryor would do. It’s such an easy target and comedians don’t really care about stats they just care about being funny.
Another thing is there aren’t likely to be that many conservative comedians, since I imagine that artistic endeavor probably attracts more left leaning “fight the power” types.
Just some thoughts and I’d love to get other opinions on this.
All that said, this was an enjoyable thing to watch
"Another thing is there aren’t likely to be that many conservative comedians, since I imagine that artistic endeavor probably attracts more left leaning “fight the power” types."
Thanks to all the craziness coming from the left these past few years, there's actually a lot of funny material coming from more conservative outlets. And conservatives feeling like they're under attack from the broader culture & big tech has put them in a "fight the power" crouch from which they feel well positioned to ridicule the powers that be.
I noted that both the women were talented comics who considered themselves spokespersons for groups previously w/o a voice. I felt that someone should of have told both of them that they shouldn't make up centuries of neglect one this one occasion.
Stellar idea - cancel culture is killing commercial comedy, but nothing can shut the mouth of a true comedian. Just ask anyone who ever taught school...
I loved seeing Glenn out of his office and away from Zoom and would really enjoy seeing more.
If Glenn could manage it, I think he could put together a few great "Glenn Shows" by visiting The Southside of Chicago and hanging out with Reverend Cory Brooks and some of his accolytes.
I know he wasn't on this panel, but it's useful to use John McWhorter's assertion of anti-racism as a religion here. And I'm going to take the liberty of broadening it to progressivism in general, because the idea that comedy is a tool to discuss uncomfortable topics stems from a very religion-like place. It makes me think of 16th century Europe. Painters? Oh yeah, we love painters! Assuming, of course, that their paintings showcase the glory of God and Christianity!
This idea that comedy should be a tool for fighting power differentials, that comics need to "speak truth to power" or "avoid punching down" comes from that same moral imperative. Everything must advance the prevailing dogma. And there's space for that kind of comedy, just like there's space for religious paintings or Christian rock or fiction books that seek to fight the power structure, but when people try to narrow the space to JUST that kind of art, that's a fucking problem. There's space for beautiful paintings that don't have a political message. There's space for jokes that don't promote an agenda. Andrew Schulz nailed that one at 22:05. With much love to Glenn, viewing comedy as a way to talk about uncomfortable issues is just... I mean, you can look at it as fighting fire with fire, but really, it's just reinforcing that idea that comedy must have a purpose beyond escapism. That view is fundamentally wrong. Athletes don't need to be role models, celebrities don't need to be the voice of science and comedians don't need to be social crusaders. I think society is better off if we nix the idea that having society's attention comes with a responsibility to fix things.
Comedy can't avoid clashing with existing power dynamics and intellectual paradigms, though. Too much of comedy is about noticing the strange, awkward, ridiculous, hypocritical, or contradictory elements of life. That almost by necessity means mocking the peccadilloes of those in power, highlighting the weirdnesses and/or inadequacies of day-to-day affairs which those in power are at least theoretically responsible for overseeing, and being irreverent about things held up as sacred. To do otherwise is to degenerate into "clapter."
Great point. In any event it seemed clear that the comedians involved here had no interest in solving social, racial or political issues. To them it's all about getting a laugh and how many times they can say "fuck" and be cool.
I thought it was great to see Glenn out of his office and engaging with the. peeps. He framed the topic well but the comedians totally ignored his framing and went wherever they wanted to.
I agree. It was an idea worth exploring but the comedians used it as an opportunity to show off. Unfortunately, Roland Fryer who originated the idea hid behind his own shadow and should have offered more commentary regarding the subject matter.
Appropos of the discussion at appx. 49:00 about the ability of "forty people tweeting" to create a tidal wave of cancellation, I'm surprised that fewer people have learned the lesson of the October Revolution in Russia - social power doesn't come from appealing to the tolerance of broad , lazy, disorganized masses, but rather to the prejudices of highly-organized and disciplined small minorities who are extremely motivated to act on their particular intolerances.
I enjoyed this episode and definitely think you're on to something. Comedy, like the arts more broadly, has value on its own merits, but it can also be used to provide insights and/or open minds that might otherwise remain closed. While that is mostly theory when it comes to some of the statements you made in your opening remarks, I think there is a lengthy track record of comedians (stand-up, late night, actors) and other artists using their respective crafts to make political points, even when the viewpoints in question weren't as dominant as they appear to be now. I am happy to see some comedians (e.g. Dave Chapelle, Bill Maher) poke fun at the new orthodoxy, just as, for example, "The Babylon Bee" does in print and Tom MacDonald does with rap. I hope and expect that such countercultural artistic expressions will eventually end up proving your theory correct.
this would have been an interesting topic to chew on: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/05/arts/television/louis-ck-grammy-backlash.html
That was weird and a lot of fun. My jaw dropped as Dr. Loury went through his opening list. I'm not sure why, as I think those things are important to talk about. I guess it was the setting. The conversation ultimately drifted in other directions, but I think the opening served to make certain it wasn't a routine night of comedy.
I went back and rewatched Chappelle's "The Closer" before writing, as my comment has to do with the trans matter. When people say "truth to power," is power the rank-and-file Americans who "oppress" the trans agenda, or is power the Ivy League telling its 200 female swimmers they are not to complain about Lia Thomas?
I would have liked someone to ask the trans comedian if jokes at the expense of Lia Thomas would be out of bounds. If Lia Thomas is the culmination of the gay rights movement that began way back when, I think they overshot the target. Lia Thomas would be fair game, as I see it.
Like others, I felt the woman on the far right was a bit much, and still clinging to woke in a way fewer and fewer people seem willing to do. The man on the far left made the most comments that resonated with me.
A weird, interesting experiment, and I think Glenn, Coleman, and Roland pulled it off. (Though I noticed you dodged the Ivy League question!)
very nice, cosy, entertaining; only that lady is really annoying/ way too dominant
Classic TGS! I learned a great deal about how comedians perceive their role, the way in which they interact with audiences to "find the line," and how this requires sticking their necks out to cross it much of the time. There were great insights on how audiences have changed over time and the role of social media in creating a new form of mob that's everywhere, all the time. There were a few people who kept interrupting the other speakers and monopolizing air time (Judy), and that was distracting, but otherwise this was a perfect show!
The biggest contradiction I heard all night was from the super funny black lesbian comic. She made an argument to the effect that the reason why the white male comic didn't view comedy as a vehicle for social change (he just wanted to make people laugh) was because of his white privilege, i.e. he benefits from society as it is so there's no reason to use comedy to change it. I feel like her calling out his white privilege had a chilling effect on the conversation. Same thing when Judy couldn't help rant about Trump. In those instances, the women in the group showed that there was a belief system they expected others to conform to (white men are privileged, Trump is bad) and essentially threatened the male comics with social sanction if they didn't agree with this. Notably, no one pushed back against the commentary about white men having privilege, which in comedy is demonstrably true. But they were talking more broadly, which is up for debate, and they did not debate it! I think this speaks volumes to the current climate. Even these comics who like and can joke with each other were afraid to offend the black lesbian, since among them she sits the highest on the social disadvantage hierarchy.
Did anyone else pick up on this?
Then, I appreciated the trans woman's perspective on how jokes about trans people are a potential vehicle for normalization. The problem with trans people being off limits as a group is it treats them like they are too fragile to participate in a mainstream activity like comedy. However, I think it's fair to draw the line at jokes that deny people's gender identity as faking or mental illness, because that's mean spirited. I just think most comics aren't at the point of being able to tell effective jokes about trans people because no one knows where that line is. This is exacerbated because comics are threatened with cancellation for any joke about a trans person, mean-spirited or not.
Just listened. This worked amazingly well on every level. I hope a lot of people see it. I have a post scheduled for Saturday where I will strongly recommend it.
Who would have thought that our subscription would come with this really funny routine? My subscription just keeps on giving!
I think this was a lot of fun, but it’s a shame they couldn’t take on any of the issues that Glenn suggested, seemed like they were too scared? A lot of real lefties on here talking about white privilege and things like that.
Richard Pryor is the greatest comedian of all time in my opinion, but his views weren’t grounded in fact, they were based on life experience and he grew up in a brothel where his mom was a hooker. Read his biography, it’s a tragic dark life and comedy was a means of coping and escape.
The problem with discussing the topics that Glenn suggested is it would be harder to make the truth funny. The only way I could see the war on cops being funny would be a black comedian talking to the audience like they know the truth but it’s convenient for them to play the race card. You know, making fun of BLM or white privilege like they know they’re not real but boy is is useful. Something like they messed up at work and we’re gonna be fired but they play the race card to get out of it. I’m no comedy writer but I’m sure it could be done.
Contrast that though with how easy it is to tell jokes about the cops having it in for black kids, like Pryor would do. It’s such an easy target and comedians don’t really care about stats they just care about being funny.
Another thing is there aren’t likely to be that many conservative comedians, since I imagine that artistic endeavor probably attracts more left leaning “fight the power” types.
Just some thoughts and I’d love to get other opinions on this.
All that said, this was an enjoyable thing to watch
"Another thing is there aren’t likely to be that many conservative comedians, since I imagine that artistic endeavor probably attracts more left leaning “fight the power” types."
Thanks to all the craziness coming from the left these past few years, there's actually a lot of funny material coming from more conservative outlets. And conservatives feeling like they're under attack from the broader culture & big tech has put them in a "fight the power" crouch from which they feel well positioned to ridicule the powers that be.
I'm old enough to remember Lenny Bruce. I would nominate Lenny as someone quite adept at speaking truth to power and still be really funny.
I like the concept, but I could only get about halfway through, because Judy Gold just WOULD NOT SHUT HER MOUTH. Yeesh....
I noted that both the women were talented comics who considered themselves spokespersons for groups previously w/o a voice. I felt that someone should of have told both of them that they shouldn't make up centuries of neglect one this one occasion.
Glenn, I'll keep renewing as long as you keep being you and bringing us this uniquely authentic perspective.
Oh, and that Coleman Hughes character is an obviously bad influence on you :- )
Stellar idea - cancel culture is killing commercial comedy, but nothing can shut the mouth of a true comedian. Just ask anyone who ever taught school...
Class Clowns of the World, UNITE!
I loved seeing Glenn out of his office and away from Zoom and would really enjoy seeing more.
If Glenn could manage it, I think he could put together a few great "Glenn Shows" by visiting The Southside of Chicago and hanging out with Reverend Cory Brooks and some of his accolytes.
I know he wasn't on this panel, but it's useful to use John McWhorter's assertion of anti-racism as a religion here. And I'm going to take the liberty of broadening it to progressivism in general, because the idea that comedy is a tool to discuss uncomfortable topics stems from a very religion-like place. It makes me think of 16th century Europe. Painters? Oh yeah, we love painters! Assuming, of course, that their paintings showcase the glory of God and Christianity!
This idea that comedy should be a tool for fighting power differentials, that comics need to "speak truth to power" or "avoid punching down" comes from that same moral imperative. Everything must advance the prevailing dogma. And there's space for that kind of comedy, just like there's space for religious paintings or Christian rock or fiction books that seek to fight the power structure, but when people try to narrow the space to JUST that kind of art, that's a fucking problem. There's space for beautiful paintings that don't have a political message. There's space for jokes that don't promote an agenda. Andrew Schulz nailed that one at 22:05. With much love to Glenn, viewing comedy as a way to talk about uncomfortable issues is just... I mean, you can look at it as fighting fire with fire, but really, it's just reinforcing that idea that comedy must have a purpose beyond escapism. That view is fundamentally wrong. Athletes don't need to be role models, celebrities don't need to be the voice of science and comedians don't need to be social crusaders. I think society is better off if we nix the idea that having society's attention comes with a responsibility to fix things.
Comedy can't avoid clashing with existing power dynamics and intellectual paradigms, though. Too much of comedy is about noticing the strange, awkward, ridiculous, hypocritical, or contradictory elements of life. That almost by necessity means mocking the peccadilloes of those in power, highlighting the weirdnesses and/or inadequacies of day-to-day affairs which those in power are at least theoretically responsible for overseeing, and being irreverent about things held up as sacred. To do otherwise is to degenerate into "clapter."
Great point. In any event it seemed clear that the comedians involved here had no interest in solving social, racial or political issues. To them it's all about getting a laugh and how many times they can say "fuck" and be cool.
I thought it was great to see Glenn out of his office and engaging with the. peeps. He framed the topic well but the comedians totally ignored his framing and went wherever they wanted to.
I agree. It was an idea worth exploring but the comedians used it as an opportunity to show off. Unfortunately, Roland Fryer who originated the idea hid behind his own shadow and should have offered more commentary regarding the subject matter.
I'm in NYC and subscribe to both you and Coleman and had no idea! Would have killed to have attended. Damn.
Me too
Me too (not #MeToo)
Appropos of the discussion at appx. 49:00 about the ability of "forty people tweeting" to create a tidal wave of cancellation, I'm surprised that fewer people have learned the lesson of the October Revolution in Russia - social power doesn't come from appealing to the tolerance of broad , lazy, disorganized masses, but rather to the prejudices of highly-organized and disciplined small minorities who are extremely motivated to act on their particular intolerances.
As a bourbon fan, I am wondering what Coleman, Glenn, and Roland are each drinking?