I already did that in my comment. In the form of a rhetorical question, you wrote, "So when you (and presumably others) opt to purchase only "fair-trade certified" coffee and/or chocolate, then you think the exploited workers are suddenly treated more equitably by their rapacious employers? "

I suppose you will claim it was only a question. If that were so, you would not have followed up with:

If so, good for you! Or do they more likely lose their jobs and their desperately poor families lose the income they brought in? Hmm...not so good for you. Same with the "slave labor" producing precious metals. Are they all real "slaves" or simply hyper-competitive prospectors and miners drawn, as through all history, by the chance of "striking it rich" or at least providing for their families (think reality TV series "Gold Rush")."

I quoted your assumption that I believed exploited workers are "suddenly treated more equitably" by their rapacious employers, as if I had written: "Go out and buy fair trade coffee and everything will be instantly wonderful."

Such childish comments are a waste of everyone's time.

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Your logic is impeccable. We should continue to choose products by more highly exploited labor, and put plantations that expoli labor less out of business by refusing to buy fair trade.

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It is simple. If people purchased only fair-trade coffee, coffee growers who don't abide by those standards would be required to change their practices. They wouldn't opt to go out of business. It's your snotty responses that merit the term "vanity."

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A significant proportion of lottery winners are compelled to waste away their new-found fortunes on high living. When it's over, they can't afford the things they have bought, and can't fix the social upheaval their families have endured. Add in the concept of group-based qualification for the windfall, might not they be compelled to demand the payments continue, given the parameters of group membership (self-identified victimhood) haven't changed? Will they suddenly become introspective, and tell themselves they had their chance, but blew it? Or will the mentality behind that way of thinking need constant feeding?

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Reparations will not be paid to anyone. The courts would strike it down as a violation of the equal protection clause. Violatins of the equal protection clause, such as the alleged violations claimed by those who want reparations, are enforced under 42 U.S.C. § 1983. The statute of limitations for such individualized claims by people with standing to due are baded on state tort law. And the statute of limitations for any such reparations by people who could prove they were harmed by de jure racism have expired. Those are two obcious reasons why reparations are a delusion.

Even if reparations were not a delusion, it would be fair to disqualify anyone who has contributed to the enslavement of others. Anyone who has purchased chocolate that is not fair-trade certified has fueled the enslavement of children as young as six who are the property of black plantation owners in Western Africa. Most cocoa for chocolate is hevested by black slaves on those plantations. Anyone who has purchsed a piece of gold or silver jewlrey has perpetuated the slave labor that is used to mine such jewelry.

I suspect that everyone out there pretending to be a victim and demanding reparations has fueled the slave markets to provide them with these goods most of their lives.

These people should shut up and be forced to pay reparations to the people they have been victimizong all their lives by fueling the demand for slaves to harvest the cocoa for their chocolote and to mine the precious metals they wear as jewelry, among other things. If they eere really concerned with justice instead of self-aggrandizement, they would be ashamed to argue against this proposal.

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On another front, the purchase of goods from China supports that country’s modern-day colonization and Uyghur prison camps. Who can completely avoid Made in China in their expenditures?

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On the other hand, American purchasing of Chinese goods and services is directly facilitating the redevelopment of Africa, desperately needed since the US, Europe, and westernized Asian countries wrote off the Dark Continent years ago. Here's hoping the efforts of the clear-thinking Chinese work to civilize the natives more effectively than the dismal failures of soft-hearted (and -headed) First Worlders.

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Europeans created the construct of race to justify their fuckery in the world (mal-distribution of wealth and power to themselves through genocide, billions of acres of free Indian land, abundant free African labor, colonization, and apartheid.

People in the world were previously and primarily divided by the regions they lived in and by religion. The Europeans appropriated gunpowder and navigation from the Chinese and then went on a rampage around the world taking other people's stuff.

Europeans started the concept of scientific racism, creating a hierarchy of the color caste system that's still prevalent throughout the world today ---whites at the top and blacks at the bottom. I've traveled extensively throughout the world and have taken note.

Now, we Have Charles Murray's pseudo-science (The Bell Curve) that has influenced social policies that are not in the best interests of African Americans. IQ hierarchy: German Jews at the top followed by Asians, Europeans, and (Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, etc. at the bottom) according to Murray.

Racism is an economic relationship. It's a competitive relationship between groups for ownership and control of resources for wealth and power. Europeans got a head start after the Portuguese started the [race] to the new world with the blessings of a Catholic pope who was gifted slaves.

Before the Transatlantic slave trade, Europe was in bad shape: plagued by rampant diseases wiping out half its population, extensive poverty/crime, stagnant mercantile economies, lack of resources, and debauchery (priests raping children).

In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued a Papal Bull (an official Proclamation or decree by the Pope) - Dum Diversas. Dum Diversas had a disastrous effect on millions of Africans. The Portuguese started the transatlantic slave trade. The Pope gave the Portuguese the "right to invade, search out, capture and subdue all Saracens (Muslims) and pagans (Africans) whatsoever. And other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed. And kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."

Putting it other words, the Pope gave the right to a Portuguese King, Alphonso, to invade; capture, enslave, and kill in the name of Jesus. Jesus's representative, the pope, was the devil. Europeans perpetuated one of the worst atrocities ever committed in the world by transporting huge numbers of people across the world for enslavement. All Christian dominations originate from the Catholic Church. The first English slave ship was named Jesus.

In the New World, force and violence were used to convert enslaved Africans to Christianity. Slaves' Bibles were specially written for slaves to promote their

submission and servitude.

White supremacy is a religion to which I refuse to subordinate myself, to say the least, to the LGBTQ community which has high-jacked the black civil rights movement. Gays and trans can hide conveniently in and out of the closet. Black folks don't have that luxury.

At the end of the day, racism is a team sport, especially considering the limited resources on this planet. Default isn't a logical response.

Unskilled undocumented Hispanic immigrants with unearned benefits that illegally enter this country are an existential threat to African Americans. Resources are very limited and diminishing.

In his book, " Presumed Alliance: The Unspoken Conflict Between Blacks and Latinos and What It Means for America, the author, Nicolas C. Vaca, disdained a rainbow coalition and presumed alliance with Black Americans...they wanted to compete with Blacks for political and economic power...they felt that by the mere fact that they were more socially acceptable than Blacks in American society...they could gain socioeconomic benefits and become the nation's majority-minority population. Their goal, according to Vaca, was to displace Blacks in every way possible."

Racism? Lol!!!! And White supremacy is a religion. 50% of Hispanics identify as white in this country.

On the white extremist side: The leader of Proud Boys is Afro-Cuban. The leader of the Oath Keepers militia group is half-white and half-Mexican. Fuentes is a noted white nationalist extremist who is half-white and half-Mexican.

The Hispanic Texas shooter who was found with nazi paraphernalia and hate material?

And whites on both sides of the political spectrum use nonblack minority groups or LBGTQ communities to water down the attention to address the benign neglect of black folks. Intersecting vertical issues with horizontal issues harms African Americans.

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La Raza did say they were taking back America. Most of the K thru 12 schools are dominated by Hispanic anchor babies. I got the f'k out of California and longer pay taxes for schools. I saved a lot of money which will go into a trust fund for my kids and grandkids.

Jim Crow Joe Biden and the Democrats aren't depending on the black votes anymore. Mexicans and other Latinos are getting the reparations---unearned benefits.

The first Constitution (3/5 of a person) didn't apply to them or other minorities. The 1857 Dredd Scott decision didn't apply to Hispanics, Chinese, Arabs, etc. They were technically protected by the constitutional Amendments One through Twelve.

The 13th, 14th, and 13th Amendments were specifically made to address the 1857 Dredd Scott Decision that Blacks weren't American citizens and had no rights. Plessy vs Ferguson Decision (separate but equal) specifically targeted African-Americans in the South.

Blacks were regulated into semi-slavery (Jim Crow). 4,700 black men, women, and children were lynched by white domestic terrorists to reinforce and protect the white supremacist status quo. Black Voting rights and representation sunk to new lows after Reconstruction. It took passage of the 1964, 1965, and 1968 Civil Rights laws to give African Americans full citizenship. For 350 years, African-Americans were prevented from fully participating in mainstream free-market capitalism.

3/4 of the 1900s was a white affirmative action program initially excluding blacks--- social security benefits, GI Bill benefits, unions, FHA mortgage loans, etc. These government programs created the white middle class as we know it today.

Blacks are behind by 200 years because of the theft of their labor and institutional racism. Whites got the headstart with wealth accumulation. I can't fill empathy for poor whites today, having had the 500-year Headstart program.

African Americans today only own and control 2% of the wealth in this country which hasn't changed since the eve of the American Civil War, at which time there were 4 million black slaves and 400 thousand semi-freed blacks.

The great benefactors of affirmative action programs have been white females. Now, we have other groups' high-jacking programs originally designed to right the wrongs of black chattel slavery--- people with unearned benefits.

Blacks can no longer be the bitch of the Democratic or Republican Party. It's time for something more effective. It will require courage and solid group cohesion.

Racism is a competitive relationship between groups for ownership and control of resources for wealth and power---an economic relationship that's a team sport. Racism will be here on the planet until the end days considering the increasingly limited resources.

Dr. Loury is counting on generational interracial sex and black subordination to white supremacy to solve the problem of racism. Lol!

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There are sources of goods and services other than China in a number of categories. Procurement is a whole world of politics in and of itself, and China among other countries aggressively plays that game, at institutions like the World Bank which is directly involved in “development”.

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May 29, 2023·edited May 29, 2023

Actually, for many Americans—especially those lacking excess disposable income—the source of products through most of their major retail outlets is pretty much Chinese, Chinese, and Chinese. Traditional "American" brands have been hollowed out over the years and replaced with less costly, inferior quality items ultimately sourced from China. Tools, electronics, housewares, and just about everything else we touch during the day, other than cars and furniture, is Chinese. Yes, the poor weegers, but not much any of us can do about refusing to buy the necessities of life from their oppressors.

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The poor “weegers”. Are you being facetious?

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No, I'm being crass, harsh, and a general hardass. Like millions (billions) of others, I give not one f—, uh, flip about the tribe, its members, or its fate. It's Chinatown, Carol.

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There are some things we can easily avoid, such as chocolate harvested by slave labor and precious metals mined by slave labor. I never buy gold. I can barely get buy on Social Security Disability Income. I seldom buy chocolate or coffee, but when I do, I make sure they are fair-trade certified. I can seldom afford to buy clothes, but when I do, it's from a thrift store. Some necessities are available only as a result of exploited labor, but anyone claiming a right to reparations, and anyone concerned with other people's welfare, should avoid buying such goods to the extent possible.

Given how China treats its own workers in assembly plants, I assume that the chance Chinese companies would treat African workers humanely is close to zero.

Of course, many people demanding reparations believe that the United States is the only country in the history of humankind that has enslaved anyone. My family came here from Poland when I was four. The term "Slav" is derived from the Middle Latin "sclavus," meaning "slave." But those same people claim there was no excuse for failing to be aware of which commodities were created by black slave labor while it existed.

My mother was a Holocaust survivor from age 10-15 (in the Warsaw Ghetto for two years, from age 12-14, getting out three weeks after the daily round-ups of 6,000 to 8,000 people per day for transport to the Treblinka death camp began, then hiding outside the Ghetto until January 1945), but I'd be ashamed of myself to demand reparations from Germans living today, who have caused me no harm, and who had nothing to do with the extermination of my mom's entire entire extended family (only her immediate family survived). Still, my mom refused to see herself as a victim, which is why she was so psychologically well-adjusted, and why she felt no dislike of Germans. She understood that few Germans were aware of the death camps.

Despite my mother's experiences, which cause me to cry when I think of what she lived through, I am firmly in favor of the Supreme Court's ruling in Skokie.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that mental illness was fairly rare in individuals, but was common in large groupings of people. Even if it's not so rare in individuals, it seems to be the rule among large groups of people.

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May 29, 2023·edited May 29, 2023

So when you (and presumably others) opt to purchase only "fair-trade certified" coffee and/or chocolate, then you think the exploited workers are suddenly treated more equitably by their rapacious employers? If so, good for you! Or do they more likely lose their jobs and their desperately poor families lose the income they brought in? Hmm...not so good for you—or them!

Same with the "slave labor" producing precious metals. Are they all real "slaves" or simply hyper-competitive prospectors and miners drawn, as through all history, by the chance of "striking it rich" or at least providing for their families (think reality TV series "Gold Rush").

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can barely get by (not "barely get buy")

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The first paragraph should include "by people with standing to sue" instead of "standing to do."

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Hispanics and Asians are in the back rooms now wheeling and dealing with the white political power brokers. The white man's buffer class to water down addressing the benign neglect of African Americans. Glenn Loury is enjoying his rewards from subordination to white conservatism (supremacy).

What are black conservatives conserving? For who? The meritorious manumission negro on the plantation was rewarded with freedom or valuables for saving Massa's life, by inventing things that improved Massa's wealth ( I.e., Jack Daniels Whiskey) or snitched on other slaves who planned escapes or rebellions. The meritorious transmission negro has been an American nightmare for black folks.

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*manumission negro

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Imagine Black folks courageously coming together and creating their independent political party operating on a vigorous quid pro quo (something for something). Real politics is quid pro quo. The democratic party just shuffles the chairs on a sinking ship to play black folks for votes that mostly favor LBGTQ and undocumented immigrants. The GOP (conservatives) just sinks the ship with old tired-out lip service.

These horizontal issues do not directly improve the life of African Americans. Intersecting horizontal issues with vertical issues is self-defeating for blacks.

Imagine most blacks boycotting a major national election to get the point through.

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At what point can we admit this is as good as it gets.

Hungry school kids. 60 years and over 20 trillion dollars later, and someone can't boil water to make oatmeal.

Massive expenditures in time and labor for pre-school programs that are proven to be no advantage after the 3rd grade.

Great progress in grade inflation.

Everytime there are great strides in boosting school achievement, someone goes to jail for fraud.

The ability to graduate from high school with a 1.3 GPA and not be able to read.

Separate graduating ceremonies for black and whites at Berkeley.

The black one looked like a minstrel show.

When can we admit this horse can't run any faster. No amount of well paid whippers and horse whisperers can get it to move any faster. This is as good as it gets. Deal with it.

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The California reparations commission has come up with a figure of over 1 million $ for each black citizen in California, but looking at median household wealth by the race categories used, the Federal Reserve in 2019 found white families had a median wealth of $188,200, compared to $24,100 for Black families, and $36,100 for Hispanic families. By my math, to make things "even" would require payments of $164,100 each, or $188,200 - $24,100, after taxes. Then there's another elephant in the room and that's females of all colors. By the pro-reparations logic, all women should be getting reparations for what their female foremothers experienced due to being excluded from jobs and credit. Black women then get double reparations. I'm all for lawsuits over any Jim Crow racist policy that can be brought to court, but no person today is owed anything for the hard life someone had under slavery.

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I've also read that in the U.S., 85% of home care provided to aged, sick or dying people is delivered by their female relatives. One could say that in many cases these women "want" to take care of loved ones, but the same is true of a lot of people who love their jobs. The book I was reading noted that if all the women providing care to relatives were paid on the usual rate for caregivers the United States would be bankrupted. And that only includes the women currently delivering care, not 4 centuries worth of ancestors.

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Thank you Glenn and John, as always. This, too, is a fact-based assessment of the situation.

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Reparations would be funded by taxes. The recipients would be purely speculative. This is an unconstitutional taking of the property of all Americans. Pandora’s box would be thrown wide open for unimaginable claims against the public fisc.

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Reparations is another example of how the Democrats propose to fix racism by, in fact, creating racial divisions (as Glenn points out - between white and black working classes). Progressive ideologies are ironic in this way. They fight racist practices by self-fulfilling them.

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Thanks for posting this segment of the conversation again. When I first listened, I was with Team Loury, so to speak, when he gave the left case against reparations. Reading it again, I am still there with him. A few words about myself may help clarify my stance. I am on the left, have been my entire adult life, same age as Dr. Loury. I was born and have lived my entire life in Appalachia, my county is one of the poorest in my state. There are black people here, not in large numbers, but many of them whose families have been here for generations. Imagine how it would be if, in such an impoverished region, reparations were made to our black residents, but nothing to their equally indigent neighbors. I don't want to imagine the reaction.

There is another concern of mine that I haven't heard addressed. On a previous show, John McWhorter remarked that his children are "mutts", meaning of mixed race. We have a number of "mutts" here, including folks with Native American, black, and white ancestries, even some Melungeons. Whatever the form or amount reparations take, do each of these folks get a full share? Or will they have to take DNA tests to determine percentages to be received? I've done AncestryDNA, and don't qualify for anything, don't need anything either. But I would like to see, and I champion, improvements in the lives of many of my neighbors. My fear is that the call for reparations is divisive and inimical to that objective.

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Melungeons- my ancestors from NC would be considered as such being mixed Black, Native and British- What percentage do I get?😉

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Mr. Placier, You're so beautifully rational! Thank you.

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Native American genocide and Black chattel slavery were rational acts of Europeans. Lol!

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Great comments!

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Reparations is the current iteration of a Jesse Jackson shakedown. “We’re going to picket your office or home until you pay us.” Blackmail never ends until is ceases to work. Injustice is never justice and will never promote justice.

Glenn is spot on with his analysis; from both political sides. Money dropped from helicopters has never been successful in changing character whether it is called welfare or reparations. The solution to disfunction is far more difficult than writing a check.

Has anyone addressed the question of what happens when people who don’t know how to handle money get a bunch of money?

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"It has to be, “Okay, problem solved. We have atoned for the racism of the past,..." (John McWhorter)

I think it is correct for John McW to say that that white peoples' support for reparations is based on a felt need to atone for alleged past sins. If the proposal were being sold as part of the planned transformation of our current economic system into Maoist socialism, how many white people would go along with it? If the white population of the U.S. had not been culturally indoctrinated into religious beliefs about sin/guilt/confession/atonement, how many would sign on for reparations? If reparations are not seen as "atonement," how would that affect the expectations that we do it once only?

If reparations are undertaken from a more rational perspective, as an attempt to propel the black population up the socioeconomic ladder, why would we assume that this intervention would yield the desired result? I think that "fixing" the economic problems being experienced by many black Americans would require generations of well crafted efforts of various sorts, mostly originating from within black communities.

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