Back in November, the journalist Jonathan Katz wrote a piece for the Atlantic called “Substack Has a Nazi Problem.” In it, he documents several paid Substacks that employ explicit Nazi, Nazi-affiliated, and white nationalist imagery and language. On these sites, you can find Holocaust denial, advocacy for a white homeland within US borders, and other such ideas. I checked out a few of the newsletters Katz mentions. His characterization of them is accurate. It’s inarguable that there is a small but very real Nazi presence on the platform.
This is simply a platform... among ten-million platforms...sitting in the midst of a global town square within which the world wanders: looking for entertainment, education, a way to pass the time, an avenue for connection, an archive, a library, a gallery, a strip show, 1967 Playboys, stats on the '85 Bears, the exact text of Hirohito's 1945 surrender broadcast to the Japanese people, my great-aunt's pictures of her 50th wedding anniversary, the invitation to Ted's BDay party next week, and every single extant version of the Bible ever published (among a trillion other possibilities).
Should we be 'shocked...SHOCKED!' that in the countless midst of ALL THIS STUFF we can, if we look hard enough and long enough, find some modicum of something that we feel (KNOW!) is seriously offensive?
Of course not. Of course the offensive is here ... if only because here is a digital reflection of out-there. If there are 'Nazis' (whatever that word might mean in 2024) stacking some of their ridiculous maunderings upon this particular platform that contains tons of other stacks of other content...who really cares? What difference does it make?
Am I threatened by those few nuts who call themselves "Nazis" in 2024 -- not in the least. Let them turn their silly somersaults and draw their silly symbols and play their silly reindeer games in the Great Obscurity which is the Net. But am I threatened by those who believe they know best what is best for me....who want to protect me from content that they -- in their infinite wisdom -- know is inappropriate and wrong (You know like Nazi Stuff & Replacement Stuff...and Covid Stuff...and Climate Change Denial Stuff???)? You betcha. Those people scare the hell out of me.
I'll choose freedom any day over Nannydom. And if that means that there's a risk I might run across something which is bad, wrong, distasteful, X-rated, or offensivel...to someone? So be it; THAT I will survive. Just as those who find THIS offensive survive me.
Well US law does legislate and implement the death penalty on the basis of "guilty by association". At least it did in 1954. Speaking as someone affected by that; I guess if you haven't your feelings might be different. Are we associating ourselves with Naziism by choosing Substack as our shared publisher? Is Substack, or any publisher, a promotion platform?
There is a strange puritanical zeal in all this. Refusing to engage in a platform in which maybe 0.0001% of the revenue goes to someone they disagree with? Are they also abandoning the Apple products which they use to lament this situation because China enslaves workers that make their devices? Abandon democracy because of awful candidates? Abandon banking systems and only use cash because of any given scandal? It’s 100% puritanical and I’m surprised more people aren’t calling out the nature of this impulse for cleansing. Now, of course that can be one’s position but I only ask that they remain consistent in the application of their values, which would require them to disengage from the modern world and never buy another product from a corporation again, lest 0.0001% of the revenue come from some unsavory aspect of human existence, which is most definitely the case.
I hope Glenn and John pick up this aspect of the conversation. Thanks for this story. You worked at it with your cousin, and learned a lesson, right? I can picture you shaking your head in frustration.
Unfortunately, this has become a political conversation here, but this issue is not about politics. We are strictly talking about depraved and very dangerous ideology and its APPEAL under false pretences. We've seen this movie before, whether it is the KKK, Communism, Nazism, or BLM.
You're only hearing the music playing on the Right, which is exactly my point. You can't simply parrot the propaganda of the Republicans. Maybe it will help to consider these FACTS:
Former Rep. TJ Cox, a Democrat from California – Still awaiting trial after his 2022 indictment, including for fraudulent campaign contributions.
Former Rep. Corrine Brown, a Democrat from Florida – Served more than two years for setting up a false charity.
Former Rep. Anthony Weiner, a Democrat from New York – Sentenced to 21 months in prison for sexting with a minor.
Former Rep. Chaka Fattah, a Democrat from Pennsylvania – Sentenced to 10 years in prison for racketeering, fraud and money laundering.
Sen. Bob Menendez, a Democrat from New Jersey – Acquitted by a judge and other charges dismissed after a jury deadlocked in a bribery case.
Former Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., a Democrat from Illinois – Sentenced to 30 months in prison for misusing campaign funds.
Former Rep. William Jefferson, a Democrat from Louisiana – Sentenced to 13 years for corruption and soliciting bribes. There was video of him taking $100,000 from an African official. Served multiple years in prison, but many of the charges were later vacated by a judge based on a US Supreme Court decision.
Former Rep. James Traficant, a Democrat from Ohio – Sentenced to eight years in prison for corruption after defending himself during trial. Was later expelled from the House.
Former Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, a Democrat, was convicted for trying to sell his power to appoint a replacement to Barack Obama’s Senate seat. His sentence was later commuted by Trump.
Former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman, a Democrat, was convicted by a jury of bribery and corruption and was sentenced to more than six years in prison.
It's not about "our maturity". It is about today's influence and corrruption on a vast scale. Wisdom and knowledge are scare enough these days, and the Overton Window has never been so wide open.
Glenn, I agree with your stand. As long as Nazis have a forum, they will use it - but so can the rest of us, use it to push back on their evil.
This is going to happen on any and all forums where free speech is given open access. So tell me - if we reasonable people keep abandoning good places that are accessed by evil, where will we ever be able to go to meet each other as reasonable people? Why should we give in and let them have the victory of banishing good writers, let them burden us with the dilemma of finding a place where our voices can be heard? I say we stay and fight them when we can. and otherwise be the example of what free speech should be.
Where else will we be safe and free, if we cannot or will not take a stand, stare down the vileness of other humans, and insist on preserving not just the decency of free speech but the strength of a liberty we know is worth fighting for?
TL;DR: Go and I will happily follow you and message other pages I subscribe to why I left. The rest, if you wanna read it: I feel like there is no longer anywhere to go where we will not see people proudly and very voiceiferously racist, violent or threatening. That went away when political candidates and others in the news and social media exploited the CT free speech push clear back in the 2015-16's and has never gone away. If anything it has grown and become so violent and dangerous that I fear for myself and others all the time when we have or express views not "acceptable" to the vast majority. AND... that said... if you want to draw a line in the sand and say firmly that you will not pay money to a platform making money off of hate speech and wrong thinking ideologies then I will happily follow you AND drop all of my subscriptions here with a note to the creator WHY I am going. I've contemplated this in the last few weeks myself and would have had to pen the note to you as well. I do not believe we can even BEGIN the work of breaking this illiberal and dangerous trend in society if we continue to just accept that "things changed and whether we like it or not we can't do anything about it." Just let me know where you go so that I can continue to support you, even if it's just a recurring donation through Kofi or PayPal. :D
Two months ago, I would have agreed with you Glenn, but after the anti-Semitic tsunami of "Hamas/From the River to the sea" expression of "free speech", I have come to realize that so many uninformed both young and old, can be brainwashed on mass. I now wonder if some red lines should be drawn. Any ideology such as Hamas, or the ideology of "from the River to the sea", or Nazism, all of which carry a genocidal DNA, may be dangerous. Yes, open and free discussion is a good ideal, but taken to an extreme, can be suicidal.
Free Speach. Let the Aholes have their say as long as they are just talking. Even discussion of genocide of Jews or the evil of foreigners or the “other” or the promotion of a racial group and denial of historical facts like the holocaust is allowable. The substack of a hate group or other evil party can be blocked by users who want no part of such groups. Thus only people who want to see or write such content will use the site. Simply hoisting the site is not the same as advocacy of the views expressed or of violence or crime.
As others have said, a tempest in a teacup.
This is simply a platform... among ten-million platforms...sitting in the midst of a global town square within which the world wanders: looking for entertainment, education, a way to pass the time, an avenue for connection, an archive, a library, a gallery, a strip show, 1967 Playboys, stats on the '85 Bears, the exact text of Hirohito's 1945 surrender broadcast to the Japanese people, my great-aunt's pictures of her 50th wedding anniversary, the invitation to Ted's BDay party next week, and every single extant version of the Bible ever published (among a trillion other possibilities).
Should we be 'shocked...SHOCKED!' that in the countless midst of ALL THIS STUFF we can, if we look hard enough and long enough, find some modicum of something that we feel (KNOW!) is seriously offensive?
Of course not. Of course the offensive is here ... if only because here is a digital reflection of out-there. If there are 'Nazis' (whatever that word might mean in 2024) stacking some of their ridiculous maunderings upon this particular platform that contains tons of other stacks of other content...who really cares? What difference does it make?
Am I threatened by those few nuts who call themselves "Nazis" in 2024 -- not in the least. Let them turn their silly somersaults and draw their silly symbols and play their silly reindeer games in the Great Obscurity which is the Net. But am I threatened by those who believe they know best what is best for me....who want to protect me from content that they -- in their infinite wisdom -- know is inappropriate and wrong (You know like Nazi Stuff & Replacement Stuff...and Covid Stuff...and Climate Change Denial Stuff???)? You betcha. Those people scare the hell out of me.
I'll choose freedom any day over Nannydom. And if that means that there's a risk I might run across something which is bad, wrong, distasteful, X-rated, or offensivel...to someone? So be it; THAT I will survive. Just as those who find THIS offensive survive me.
Well US law does legislate and implement the death penalty on the basis of "guilty by association". At least it did in 1954. Speaking as someone affected by that; I guess if you haven't your feelings might be different. Are we associating ourselves with Naziism by choosing Substack as our shared publisher? Is Substack, or any publisher, a promotion platform?
Yes. Next question.
There is a strange puritanical zeal in all this. Refusing to engage in a platform in which maybe 0.0001% of the revenue goes to someone they disagree with? Are they also abandoning the Apple products which they use to lament this situation because China enslaves workers that make their devices? Abandon democracy because of awful candidates? Abandon banking systems and only use cash because of any given scandal? It’s 100% puritanical and I’m surprised more people aren’t calling out the nature of this impulse for cleansing. Now, of course that can be one’s position but I only ask that they remain consistent in the application of their values, which would require them to disengage from the modern world and never buy another product from a corporation again, lest 0.0001% of the revenue come from some unsavory aspect of human existence, which is most definitely the case.
Yup.
I hope Glenn and John pick up this aspect of the conversation. Thanks for this story. You worked at it with your cousin, and learned a lesson, right? I can picture you shaking your head in frustration.
Unfortunately, this has become a political conversation here, but this issue is not about politics. We are strictly talking about depraved and very dangerous ideology and its APPEAL under false pretences. We've seen this movie before, whether it is the KKK, Communism, Nazism, or BLM.
You're only hearing the music playing on the Right, which is exactly my point. You can't simply parrot the propaganda of the Republicans. Maybe it will help to consider these FACTS:
Former Rep. TJ Cox, a Democrat from California – Still awaiting trial after his 2022 indictment, including for fraudulent campaign contributions.
Former Rep. Corrine Brown, a Democrat from Florida – Served more than two years for setting up a false charity.
Former Rep. Anthony Weiner, a Democrat from New York – Sentenced to 21 months in prison for sexting with a minor.
Former Rep. Chaka Fattah, a Democrat from Pennsylvania – Sentenced to 10 years in prison for racketeering, fraud and money laundering.
Sen. Bob Menendez, a Democrat from New Jersey – Acquitted by a judge and other charges dismissed after a jury deadlocked in a bribery case.
Former Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., a Democrat from Illinois – Sentenced to 30 months in prison for misusing campaign funds.
Former Rep. William Jefferson, a Democrat from Louisiana – Sentenced to 13 years for corruption and soliciting bribes. There was video of him taking $100,000 from an African official. Served multiple years in prison, but many of the charges were later vacated by a judge based on a US Supreme Court decision.
Former Rep. James Traficant, a Democrat from Ohio – Sentenced to eight years in prison for corruption after defending himself during trial. Was later expelled from the House.
Former Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, a Democrat, was convicted for trying to sell his power to appoint a replacement to Barack Obama’s Senate seat. His sentence was later commuted by Trump.
Former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman, a Democrat, was convicted by a jury of bribery and corruption and was sentenced to more than six years in prison.
It's not clear to me that inclusion in Substack is actually subjecting Naziism to the kind of 'open discourse' that would 'strip it of power.'
It's not about "our maturity". It is about today's influence and corrruption on a vast scale. Wisdom and knowledge are scare enough these days, and the Overton Window has never been so wide open.
The latest game at the Atlantic is called “Six Degrees of Adolf Hitler.”
Stay. I’m GROWN. I can decide what I want to read, watch and believe all by myself. I don’t need “democracy” protecting me.
Glenn, I agree with your stand. As long as Nazis have a forum, they will use it - but so can the rest of us, use it to push back on their evil.
This is going to happen on any and all forums where free speech is given open access. So tell me - if we reasonable people keep abandoning good places that are accessed by evil, where will we ever be able to go to meet each other as reasonable people? Why should we give in and let them have the victory of banishing good writers, let them burden us with the dilemma of finding a place where our voices can be heard? I say we stay and fight them when we can. and otherwise be the example of what free speech should be.
Where else will we be safe and free, if we cannot or will not take a stand, stare down the vileness of other humans, and insist on preserving not just the decency of free speech but the strength of a liberty we know is worth fighting for?
TL;DR: Go and I will happily follow you and message other pages I subscribe to why I left. The rest, if you wanna read it: I feel like there is no longer anywhere to go where we will not see people proudly and very voiceiferously racist, violent or threatening. That went away when political candidates and others in the news and social media exploited the CT free speech push clear back in the 2015-16's and has never gone away. If anything it has grown and become so violent and dangerous that I fear for myself and others all the time when we have or express views not "acceptable" to the vast majority. AND... that said... if you want to draw a line in the sand and say firmly that you will not pay money to a platform making money off of hate speech and wrong thinking ideologies then I will happily follow you AND drop all of my subscriptions here with a note to the creator WHY I am going. I've contemplated this in the last few weeks myself and would have had to pen the note to you as well. I do not believe we can even BEGIN the work of breaking this illiberal and dangerous trend in society if we continue to just accept that "things changed and whether we like it or not we can't do anything about it." Just let me know where you go so that I can continue to support you, even if it's just a recurring donation through Kofi or PayPal. :D
As a Jew and proud Zionist, it's hard for me to agree but I agree with Glenn.
Two months ago, I would have agreed with you Glenn, but after the anti-Semitic tsunami of "Hamas/From the River to the sea" expression of "free speech", I have come to realize that so many uninformed both young and old, can be brainwashed on mass. I now wonder if some red lines should be drawn. Any ideology such as Hamas, or the ideology of "from the River to the sea", or Nazism, all of which carry a genocidal DNA, may be dangerous. Yes, open and free discussion is a good ideal, but taken to an extreme, can be suicidal.
Free Speach. Let the Aholes have their say as long as they are just talking. Even discussion of genocide of Jews or the evil of foreigners or the “other” or the promotion of a racial group and denial of historical facts like the holocaust is allowable. The substack of a hate group or other evil party can be blocked by users who want no part of such groups. Thus only people who want to see or write such content will use the site. Simply hoisting the site is not the same as advocacy of the views expressed or of violence or crime.