Sandel (and Loury) need to take a deeper dive into the statistics that contradict his thesis of the widening inequalities of recent decades". Check out John Cochrane's post on The Myth of American Inequality", at the following URL. Basically, the Standard Narrative says that things are getting worse over time, and people are stuck in their income bins. Neither is true. Actual income, after transfers, and properly accounting for inflation -- has not been stagnating or declining over time. One reason is, again, the simple failure to account for the enormous increase in transfers. This should be discussed with Glenn Loury who as an economist will appreciate the analysis and graphs of this piece:
When Glenn asked Sandel whether society could tolerate the presence of antisocial behavior, Sandel subtly changed the subject to whether or not retribution is effective or justified. These topics are loosely related, but far from identical. Even if retribution was ineffective and unjustified, people need a way of dealing with people who can’t or won’t embrace reasonable social norms. Prison is an expensive and unpleasant means for achieving that goal. It would have been interesting to hear a discussion of actual alternatives.
30:05 I agree that too much status comes from college education. I'm a software developer without a degree. I "work with my hands" in the sense that my hands type on a keyboard and move a mouse, though I doubt Sandel meant the phrase that way. It would be better for me if I had finished my degree, but it wasn't necessary. If the value of degrees were de-emphasized, it would probably be better for the majority of people who don't hold them. The people at the top might still be paid more than Sandel thinks they should be, but that's less important than the situation of people at the bottom IMHO.
Perhaps. He needs to be tested with real power before we can be sure. He probably will not get the opportunity. The rent seekers have total control of the government, with all of the assistance required from the Fed and the Treasury. There is still some wealth remaining in possession of the 99%. Their work is not done yet.
Everything anyone wants in life comes only from one class of people - the working class. Eradicate every single one of the ultra rich, every non-working “trust fund baby,” and everything would continue just as it is, perhaps better. Wipe out the chronic welfare subsistence and homeless classes, and not only would things continue but for many they would improve.
I do not propose either of these, of course, but this is what is known as “hard truth.”
Our government ought to reflect that truth. It used to, and can again.
“I think that the sense of anger and resentment and grievance against elites is at the heart of Trump's appeal. Now, of course, a good part of his appeal, a lot of people were drawn to the racist, xenophobic, misogynist aspect of his appeal. There is no question about that.”
WOW! Talk about bigotry!
Now, let’s all think back to not very long ago, when Kanye, as referenced right here on this site, made bigoted remarks about Jews. Apparently, Glenn did not approve of those remarks. Yet, here he allows the same sort of bigotry against Trump supporters, as if that is not a problem. It’s a HUGE problem.
Perhaps Glenn is thinking, “but with Trump supporters, it’s true”. Well, perhaps what Kanye said about Jews is true. Perhaps not. But any way you look at it, making denigrating comments about an entire class of people is bigotry. Period. Blaming cops for the actions of some of them, is bigotry. Period. Jews. Republicans, democrats, rich poor, Trump supporters. If you denigrate any of them as a class, you are a bigot. Period.
As for education, Sandal seems to easily buy into the myth that education is measured in years of attendance at school. That simply is not true. I have a master’s in education, and spent much of my early career unlearning the myths I’d been taught by all those years of being “educated”. To put it in the words of a famous English major, Paul Simon,
“When I think back on all the crap
I learned in high school,
It’s a wonder I can think at all.
But my lack of education hasn’t hurt me none;
I can read the writing on the wall.
Simon was speaking for, among others, all those unwashed, uneducated people who live in the real world and know how things really work. I would suggest that many of those who have dedicated their lives to academic incest and intellectual inbreeding, sometimes known as progressives, are far more clueless than they realize.
Do you want some winners? How about Henry Ford, who revolutionized auto manufacturing, but never went to college. Same for Thomas Edison, who invented usable electricity, moving pictures, recorded sound and countless other items. What have YOU done, Mr Sandal?
I’ve had seventeen years of education. I am glad about that. But I’ve never been so foolish as to believe that attending school takes more intelligence than being a plumber, or electrician, or farmer. And these people have to be right almost infallibly, or they will fail miserably. But “educators” can spew the latest, untested theory and get away with it for centuries before people realize how clueless they truly were.
In defense of meritocracy, I would like to point out a few facts of my own history. My grandfather was an immigrant. My father did not have any college but was employed as a manager because of ability. My mother had two years of college, which qualified her to teach at that time. In my own generation, five of seven children earned college degrees and one more had most of the hours required for a degree. We all paid our own way. One sibling has a JD and two earned master’s degrees. In our children’s generation, of fourteen cousins, five were National Merit finalists. Four have law degrees. One is a medical doctor. Three earned PhDs. One has a Master of Public Administration. I don’t see that the family had much going for it other than talent and a good work ethic. Do I believe in merit? Yes, I do.
The left is shot through with arrogance, ignorance and a sickening sense of moral certitude that makes them and their values unpalatable to most Americans who live outside the coasts. I have several college degrees and always vote Republican because the Democrats embrace policies that imperil public safety and undermine important standards of moral judgment upon which civil society depends upon in order to exist and flourish. Choosing your gender, CRT, censorship, defund the police, opposition to voter ID and immigration enforcement, cancel culture, abortion on demand, forcing religious groups to recognize gay marriage and provide abortion services et al are deeply worrisome and violate essential freedoms of association and religious practices not to mention intellectual diversity which does not exist on most campuses. The party is shot through with grievance, victimization and entitlement politics which poisons the idea of tolerance and respect for one another and makes it difficult for us to act responsibly in order to address crucial public problems.
The rejection of traditional religions by our self-appointed moral and intellectual superiors, and the outright hatred they express toward their fellow Americans with whom they have political disagreements, and the embrace of new religions (anti racism, climate catastrophism, gender extremism, anti-speech, etc) are all Marxist stratagems.
They’re not new either. We (those of us who don’t breathe leftism) have simply forgotten that you have to fight Socialism again and again and again, because its lies and false promises are alluring to these elites, who are actually a herd of self-adoring, virtue-signaling haters.
“Now, of course, a good part of his appeal, a lot of people were drawn to the racist, xenophobic, misogynist aspect of his appeal. There is no question about that.”
It is so tiresome that those in the media and highly degreed call Trump a racist. Maybe in the sense that, like every other redefinition this crowd is trying, such as by making someone who thinks we all should be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin, is, in their eyes, a racist.
In my post yesterday I regret I made an error in the numbers I included in Home Depot. Those numbers were inception to date not for just 2021. Again I regret the error.
Do the "haves" today really think of themselves as more deserving of their status than the "haves" in other time periods?
In decrying meritocracy is he not falling into the progressive trap of ableism?
Sandel (and Loury) need to take a deeper dive into the statistics that contradict his thesis of the widening inequalities of recent decades". Check out John Cochrane's post on The Myth of American Inequality", at the following URL. Basically, the Standard Narrative says that things are getting worse over time, and people are stuck in their income bins. Neither is true. Actual income, after transfers, and properly accounting for inflation -- has not been stagnating or declining over time. One reason is, again, the simple failure to account for the enormous increase in transfers. This should be discussed with Glenn Loury who as an economist will appreciate the analysis and graphs of this piece:
https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2022/12/calomiris-on-gramm-ekelund-and-early-on.html#more
When Glenn asked Sandel whether society could tolerate the presence of antisocial behavior, Sandel subtly changed the subject to whether or not retribution is effective or justified. These topics are loosely related, but far from identical. Even if retribution was ineffective and unjustified, people need a way of dealing with people who can’t or won’t embrace reasonable social norms. Prison is an expensive and unpleasant means for achieving that goal. It would have been interesting to hear a discussion of actual alternatives.
33:51 How is "genuine value" determined and who makes the determination?
30:05 I agree that too much status comes from college education. I'm a software developer without a degree. I "work with my hands" in the sense that my hands type on a keyboard and move a mouse, though I doubt Sandel meant the phrase that way. It would be better for me if I had finished my degree, but it wasn't necessary. If the value of degrees were de-emphasized, it would probably be better for the majority of people who don't hold them. The people at the top might still be paid more than Sandel thinks they should be, but that's less important than the situation of people at the bottom IMHO.
You’re funny!
Perhaps. He needs to be tested with real power before we can be sure. He probably will not get the opportunity. The rent seekers have total control of the government, with all of the assistance required from the Fed and the Treasury. There is still some wealth remaining in possession of the 99%. Their work is not done yet.
Everything anyone wants in life comes only from one class of people - the working class. Eradicate every single one of the ultra rich, every non-working “trust fund baby,” and everything would continue just as it is, perhaps better. Wipe out the chronic welfare subsistence and homeless classes, and not only would things continue but for many they would improve.
I do not propose either of these, of course, but this is what is known as “hard truth.”
Our government ought to reflect that truth. It used to, and can again.
“I think that the sense of anger and resentment and grievance against elites is at the heart of Trump's appeal. Now, of course, a good part of his appeal, a lot of people were drawn to the racist, xenophobic, misogynist aspect of his appeal. There is no question about that.”
WOW! Talk about bigotry!
Now, let’s all think back to not very long ago, when Kanye, as referenced right here on this site, made bigoted remarks about Jews. Apparently, Glenn did not approve of those remarks. Yet, here he allows the same sort of bigotry against Trump supporters, as if that is not a problem. It’s a HUGE problem.
Perhaps Glenn is thinking, “but with Trump supporters, it’s true”. Well, perhaps what Kanye said about Jews is true. Perhaps not. But any way you look at it, making denigrating comments about an entire class of people is bigotry. Period. Blaming cops for the actions of some of them, is bigotry. Period. Jews. Republicans, democrats, rich poor, Trump supporters. If you denigrate any of them as a class, you are a bigot. Period.
As for education, Sandal seems to easily buy into the myth that education is measured in years of attendance at school. That simply is not true. I have a master’s in education, and spent much of my early career unlearning the myths I’d been taught by all those years of being “educated”. To put it in the words of a famous English major, Paul Simon,
“When I think back on all the crap
I learned in high school,
It’s a wonder I can think at all.
But my lack of education hasn’t hurt me none;
I can read the writing on the wall.
Simon was speaking for, among others, all those unwashed, uneducated people who live in the real world and know how things really work. I would suggest that many of those who have dedicated their lives to academic incest and intellectual inbreeding, sometimes known as progressives, are far more clueless than they realize.
Do you want some winners? How about Henry Ford, who revolutionized auto manufacturing, but never went to college. Same for Thomas Edison, who invented usable electricity, moving pictures, recorded sound and countless other items. What have YOU done, Mr Sandal?
I’ve had seventeen years of education. I am glad about that. But I’ve never been so foolish as to believe that attending school takes more intelligence than being a plumber, or electrician, or farmer. And these people have to be right almost infallibly, or they will fail miserably. But “educators” can spew the latest, untested theory and get away with it for centuries before people realize how clueless they truly were.
In defense of meritocracy, I would like to point out a few facts of my own history. My grandfather was an immigrant. My father did not have any college but was employed as a manager because of ability. My mother had two years of college, which qualified her to teach at that time. In my own generation, five of seven children earned college degrees and one more had most of the hours required for a degree. We all paid our own way. One sibling has a JD and two earned master’s degrees. In our children’s generation, of fourteen cousins, five were National Merit finalists. Four have law degrees. One is a medical doctor. Three earned PhDs. One has a Master of Public Administration. I don’t see that the family had much going for it other than talent and a good work ethic. Do I believe in merit? Yes, I do.
The left is shot through with arrogance, ignorance and a sickening sense of moral certitude that makes them and their values unpalatable to most Americans who live outside the coasts. I have several college degrees and always vote Republican because the Democrats embrace policies that imperil public safety and undermine important standards of moral judgment upon which civil society depends upon in order to exist and flourish. Choosing your gender, CRT, censorship, defund the police, opposition to voter ID and immigration enforcement, cancel culture, abortion on demand, forcing religious groups to recognize gay marriage and provide abortion services et al are deeply worrisome and violate essential freedoms of association and religious practices not to mention intellectual diversity which does not exist on most campuses. The party is shot through with grievance, victimization and entitlement politics which poisons the idea of tolerance and respect for one another and makes it difficult for us to act responsibly in order to address crucial public problems.
The rejection of traditional religions by our self-appointed moral and intellectual superiors, and the outright hatred they express toward their fellow Americans with whom they have political disagreements, and the embrace of new religions (anti racism, climate catastrophism, gender extremism, anti-speech, etc) are all Marxist stratagems.
They’re not new either. We (those of us who don’t breathe leftism) have simply forgotten that you have to fight Socialism again and again and again, because its lies and false promises are alluring to these elites, who are actually a herd of self-adoring, virtue-signaling haters.
“Now, of course, a good part of his appeal, a lot of people were drawn to the racist, xenophobic, misogynist aspect of his appeal. There is no question about that.”
It is so tiresome that those in the media and highly degreed call Trump a racist. Maybe in the sense that, like every other redefinition this crowd is trying, such as by making someone who thinks we all should be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin, is, in their eyes, a racist.
In my post yesterday I regret I made an error in the numbers I included in Home Depot. Those numbers were inception to date not for just 2021. Again I regret the error.
We need to change our language. Stop calling these people elite because they aren't. Ruling class, or oligarchs would be better descriptions.