I always liked Cornell. But his recent moral equivalence on the massacre in Israel is disappointing at best and antisemitic at worst. And the hypocrisy has been beyond anything I could have imagined.
I enjoyed this conversation; civil, enlightening, etc... Thanks for having Sabrina on the show Glenn. Thanks to LaJuan for the suggestion of having this conversation. I was not however moved in any way towards the lefts proposals or thinking. Many others have posted about the use of the term fascist. I agree, over used and inappropriately understood to be useful in most debate. I found Sabrina's pointing at the US military industrial complex and it's ranking as 47th in the world in CO2 emissions as a reason for going after it from a climate change perspective to be peculiar. It's a perfectly fine point of view to not appreciate the military industrial complex, that can be debated. But even the most ardent climate change advocate would recognize that once you get beyond even the top 10 producers of CO2 emissions you're swatting at flies when there are gorillas to deal with. I did look up the data (here https://github.com/owid/co2-data) as Sabrina suggested and it's just not a compelling argument. I believe the climate change advocates are right, if we cannot do something to move the heaviest of producers then we cannot do much of anything.
It is disappointing that Sabrina doesn't know the difference between authoritarianism and fascism and constantly equivocates the two. I guess anyone can start a podcast and their popularity makes them an authority somehow?
So many people throw around the term "fascist" anymore it's nauseating. So many equivocations.
From the Council on Foreign Relations:
"Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent."
Under this definition, Trump was definitely moving in a fascist direction and has fascist elements, though wasn't yet fully there.
Biden could be said to have some fascist elements, perhaps, but if he is considered a "puppet" this negates him being the embodiment of the nation and the supreme savior leader type that is characteristic of fascism.
Part of the revival of American Civics needs to be differentiating "fascist" from "authoritarian". As Glenn says, fascism has a very specific political and historical meaning. It's not a synonym for "authoritarianism" or even (as it seems to be used most often now) for "the worst kind of authoritarianism." Fascism denotes a movement that involves myths of cultural regeneration and martial elements embodied in a strongman leader who enjoys a high level of popularity among the people. In every authoritarian system, there is oppression. In a fascist system, that oppression is often meted out by the people themselves against political opponents, outsiders, minorities and people who resist or area viewed as enemies of the movement. Ironically (or perhaps unironically), ANTIFA may be the closest thing we have in America to a "fascist" organization at the moment - one whose explicit goal is to do violence against its political opponents.
Certainly the Make America Great Again movement fits the bill for a myth of cultural regeneration and there is a cult-of-personality around Trump, but the Trumpian Right's general distrust of all things government disqualifies it from categorization as "fascist." I think of this whenever I see a "Don't Tread on Me" or similar-themed bumper sticker on the same pickup as a "Trump" one - which is quite often. Meanwhile, the American Left in 2023 has no shortage of authoritarian ideas that might be common in a fascist government: from compulsory vaccination to a supreme emphasis on race and ethnicity in policy, and many Americans who identify as left-of-center seem willing to do the government's work for it by outing perceived enemies through cancellation, but the Left lacks any sort of unifying cultural message that can be embodied in and advertised through a strong individual leader. In fact, most of its leaders seek to appear compassionate to a fault, and are afraid of endorsing one culture or value system over others.
Fascism should not be a slur for a politician or policy one disagrees with or thinks is dangerous. There are better, more precise descriptions out there that can effect better results in our national discourse.
I would say that if you consider the idea of the "Nation" as being a particular ethno-cultural community of people who look and believe a certain way with a mythologized shared history...then it makes sense that Trump supporters would be anti-government, since the government is a constitutional-liberal-democratic government and as such a technocratic bureaucracy, rather than a "true" government of the "true people" or "real Americans."
This is a very fascistic sentiment and I've heard it said many times by Trump, his inner circle, his supporters.
Fascist as anti-government in the beginning (that's why they overthrow the current government) because it is not a "true government" because it is not controlled by the "true people."
Trump supporters are a lot more diverse than one ethno-cultural community, though, when they're not being caricatured by MSNBC. Moreover, the American Right believes in less government 90% of the time. You can't spin that into fascism no matter which way you turn it. With fascism, the state, culture, society, and the military are all bundled into one so that each can serve the other. That level of coordination and synergy is expressly opposed by Trump and his supporters. It's a "get the government off my back" vibe. There's plenty to criticize with that movement but it's not fascism or anything like it.
I take your point. He did get more Hispanic vote than anticipated. But he is a megalomaniac for sure. "Only I can fix it." "Believe me." Very cult of personality stuff that is fascism adjacent. Even if his supporters aren't fascistic, per se, he certainly seemed to be himself. He wants to control elections, the media and be synonymous with what the "true" patriotism and nation is. HE is America in his eyes. That is his limitless narcissism at work.
So, I will concede. Trump supporters need not be fascists (negative partisanship is enough to explain a lot of them), but Trump himself certainly has fascistic impulses, and if he could, he would be a king, not a president, no doubt. This is evidenced by myriad public statements he has made surrounding his own narcissism and megalomania.
It sounds like you're substituting the word "fascist" when you mean "authoritarian", which was the problem I was identifying in my earlier comment. It's not a defense of Trump to say he's not a fascist, it's an effort to be precise with language and terminology so one can properly identify what's happening.
No. By the definition given by Council on Foreign Relations of 'fascism' I believe that while our system, and most Trump supporters would not meet the definition, I believe Trump's personal desire is for him to be a fascist dictator, though he would likely not admit to that when asked directly, and would call himself the "dear leader of the people."
I’m astonished by this conversation. It goes back to the puerile epithets thrown around by the SDS people in the sixties, when everyone who didn’t agree with them was a “fascist.” Joe Biden is a bloviating fabulist, a weak and cowardly bully and mentally impaired at this stage, but surely not a fascist. He is just a very average politician from another era and a lousy president. That does not make him a fascist. Does no one have any information about Mussolini or Hitler any more?
The Biden Admin is colluding with private corporations to suppress disfavored views and political opposition as seen in the current Fifth Circuit case. That is definitionally fascist.
I always liked Cornell. But his recent moral equivalence on the massacre in Israel is disappointing at best and antisemitic at worst. And the hypocrisy has been beyond anything I could have imagined.
... as must you. ;-)
Glenn, I am one of those undereducated Trump supporters... a Brown university grad with 2 advanced degrees.
I get tired of being painted with the white rural “hick” brush.
Sabrina Salvanti: I'm going to follow her.
I enjoyed this conversation; civil, enlightening, etc... Thanks for having Sabrina on the show Glenn. Thanks to LaJuan for the suggestion of having this conversation. I was not however moved in any way towards the lefts proposals or thinking. Many others have posted about the use of the term fascist. I agree, over used and inappropriately understood to be useful in most debate. I found Sabrina's pointing at the US military industrial complex and it's ranking as 47th in the world in CO2 emissions as a reason for going after it from a climate change perspective to be peculiar. It's a perfectly fine point of view to not appreciate the military industrial complex, that can be debated. But even the most ardent climate change advocate would recognize that once you get beyond even the top 10 producers of CO2 emissions you're swatting at flies when there are gorillas to deal with. I did look up the data (here https://github.com/owid/co2-data) as Sabrina suggested and it's just not a compelling argument. I believe the climate change advocates are right, if we cannot do something to move the heaviest of producers then we cannot do much of anything.
Authoritarianism is the better term.
Just what I was thinking. People incorrectly equate the two terms.
It is disappointing that Sabrina doesn't know the difference between authoritarianism and fascism and constantly equivocates the two. I guess anyone can start a podcast and their popularity makes them an authority somehow?
So many people throw around the term "fascist" anymore it's nauseating. So many equivocations.
From the Council on Foreign Relations:
"Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent."
Under this definition, Trump was definitely moving in a fascist direction and has fascist elements, though wasn't yet fully there.
Biden could be said to have some fascist elements, perhaps, but if he is considered a "puppet" this negates him being the embodiment of the nation and the supreme savior leader type that is characteristic of fascism.
Part of the revival of American Civics needs to be differentiating "fascist" from "authoritarian". As Glenn says, fascism has a very specific political and historical meaning. It's not a synonym for "authoritarianism" or even (as it seems to be used most often now) for "the worst kind of authoritarianism." Fascism denotes a movement that involves myths of cultural regeneration and martial elements embodied in a strongman leader who enjoys a high level of popularity among the people. In every authoritarian system, there is oppression. In a fascist system, that oppression is often meted out by the people themselves against political opponents, outsiders, minorities and people who resist or area viewed as enemies of the movement. Ironically (or perhaps unironically), ANTIFA may be the closest thing we have in America to a "fascist" organization at the moment - one whose explicit goal is to do violence against its political opponents.
Certainly the Make America Great Again movement fits the bill for a myth of cultural regeneration and there is a cult-of-personality around Trump, but the Trumpian Right's general distrust of all things government disqualifies it from categorization as "fascist." I think of this whenever I see a "Don't Tread on Me" or similar-themed bumper sticker on the same pickup as a "Trump" one - which is quite often. Meanwhile, the American Left in 2023 has no shortage of authoritarian ideas that might be common in a fascist government: from compulsory vaccination to a supreme emphasis on race and ethnicity in policy, and many Americans who identify as left-of-center seem willing to do the government's work for it by outing perceived enemies through cancellation, but the Left lacks any sort of unifying cultural message that can be embodied in and advertised through a strong individual leader. In fact, most of its leaders seek to appear compassionate to a fault, and are afraid of endorsing one culture or value system over others.
Fascism should not be a slur for a politician or policy one disagrees with or thinks is dangerous. There are better, more precise descriptions out there that can effect better results in our national discourse.
I would say that if you consider the idea of the "Nation" as being a particular ethno-cultural community of people who look and believe a certain way with a mythologized shared history...then it makes sense that Trump supporters would be anti-government, since the government is a constitutional-liberal-democratic government and as such a technocratic bureaucracy, rather than a "true" government of the "true people" or "real Americans."
This is a very fascistic sentiment and I've heard it said many times by Trump, his inner circle, his supporters.
Fascist as anti-government in the beginning (that's why they overthrow the current government) because it is not a "true government" because it is not controlled by the "true people."
Trump supporters are a lot more diverse than one ethno-cultural community, though, when they're not being caricatured by MSNBC. Moreover, the American Right believes in less government 90% of the time. You can't spin that into fascism no matter which way you turn it. With fascism, the state, culture, society, and the military are all bundled into one so that each can serve the other. That level of coordination and synergy is expressly opposed by Trump and his supporters. It's a "get the government off my back" vibe. There's plenty to criticize with that movement but it's not fascism or anything like it.
I take your point. He did get more Hispanic vote than anticipated. But he is a megalomaniac for sure. "Only I can fix it." "Believe me." Very cult of personality stuff that is fascism adjacent. Even if his supporters aren't fascistic, per se, he certainly seemed to be himself. He wants to control elections, the media and be synonymous with what the "true" patriotism and nation is. HE is America in his eyes. That is his limitless narcissism at work.
So, I will concede. Trump supporters need not be fascists (negative partisanship is enough to explain a lot of them), but Trump himself certainly has fascistic impulses, and if he could, he would be a king, not a president, no doubt. This is evidenced by myriad public statements he has made surrounding his own narcissism and megalomania.
It sounds like you're substituting the word "fascist" when you mean "authoritarian", which was the problem I was identifying in my earlier comment. It's not a defense of Trump to say he's not a fascist, it's an effort to be precise with language and terminology so one can properly identify what's happening.
No. By the definition given by Council on Foreign Relations of 'fascism' I believe that while our system, and most Trump supporters would not meet the definition, I believe Trump's personal desire is for him to be a fascist dictator, though he would likely not admit to that when asked directly, and would call himself the "dear leader of the people."
I’m astonished by this conversation. It goes back to the puerile epithets thrown around by the SDS people in the sixties, when everyone who didn’t agree with them was a “fascist.” Joe Biden is a bloviating fabulist, a weak and cowardly bully and mentally impaired at this stage, but surely not a fascist. He is just a very average politician from another era and a lousy president. That does not make him a fascist. Does no one have any information about Mussolini or Hitler any more?
Hard to know what, or if, Biden thinks. His collaboration with business and industry to subvert the American people clearly has fascist vibes.
The Biden Admin is colluding with private corporations to suppress disfavored views and political opposition as seen in the current Fifth Circuit case. That is definitionally fascist.