I always liked Cornell. But his recent moral equivalence on the massacre in Israel is disappointing at best and antisemitic at worst. And the hypocrisy has been beyond anything I could have imagined.
I enjoyed this conversation; civil, enlightening, etc... Thanks for having Sabrina on the show Glenn. Thanks to LaJuan for the suggestion of having this conversation. I was not however moved in any way towards the lefts proposals or thinking. Many others have posted about the use of the term fascist. I agree, over used and inappropriately understood to be useful in most debate. I found Sabrina's pointing at the US military industrial complex and it's ranking as 47th in the world in CO2 emissions as a reason for going after it from a climate change perspective to be peculiar. It's a perfectly fine point of view to not appreciate the military industrial complex, that can be debated. But even the most ardent climate change advocate would recognize that once you get beyond even the top 10 producers of CO2 emissions you're swatting at flies when there are gorillas to deal with. I did look up the data (here https://github.com/owid/co2-data) as Sabrina suggested and it's just not a compelling argument. I believe the climate change advocates are right, if we cannot do something to move the heaviest of producers then we cannot do much of anything.
It is disappointing that Sabrina doesn't know the difference between authoritarianism and fascism and constantly equivocates the two. I guess anyone can start a podcast and their popularity makes them an authority somehow?
So many people throw around the term "fascist" anymore it's nauseating. So many equivocations.
From the Council on Foreign Relations:
"Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent."
Under this definition, Trump was definitely moving in a fascist direction and has fascist elements, though wasn't yet fully there.
Biden could be said to have some fascist elements, perhaps, but if he is considered a "puppet" this negates him being the embodiment of the nation and the supreme savior leader type that is characteristic of fascism.
Part of the revival of American Civics needs to be differentiating "fascist" from "authoritarian". As Glenn says, fascism has a very specific political and historical meaning. It's not a synonym for "authoritarianism" or even (as it seems to be used most often now) for "the worst kind of authoritarianism." Fascism denotes a movement that involves myths of cultural regeneration and martial elements embodied in a strongman leader who enjoys a high level of popularity among the people. In every authoritarian system, there is oppression. In a fascist system, that oppression is often meted out by the people themselves against political opponents, outsiders, minorities and people who resist or area viewed as enemies of the movement. Ironically (or perhaps unironically), ANTIFA may be the closest thing we have in America to a "fascist" organization at the moment - one whose explicit goal is to do violence against its political opponents.
Certainly the Make America Great Again movement fits the bill for a myth of cultural regeneration and there is a cult-of-personality around Trump, but the Trumpian Right's general distrust of all things government disqualifies it from categorization as "fascist." I think of this whenever I see a "Don't Tread on Me" or similar-themed bumper sticker on the same pickup as a "Trump" one - which is quite often. Meanwhile, the American Left in 2023 has no shortage of authoritarian ideas that might be common in a fascist government: from compulsory vaccination to a supreme emphasis on race and ethnicity in policy, and many Americans who identify as left-of-center seem willing to do the government's work for it by outing perceived enemies through cancellation, but the Left lacks any sort of unifying cultural message that can be embodied in and advertised through a strong individual leader. In fact, most of its leaders seek to appear compassionate to a fault, and are afraid of endorsing one culture or value system over others.
Fascism should not be a slur for a politician or policy one disagrees with or thinks is dangerous. There are better, more precise descriptions out there that can effect better results in our national discourse.
I’m astonished by this conversation. It goes back to the puerile epithets thrown around by the SDS people in the sixties, when everyone who didn’t agree with them was a “fascist.” Joe Biden is a bloviating fabulist, a weak and cowardly bully and mentally impaired at this stage, but surely not a fascist. He is just a very average politician from another era and a lousy president. That does not make him a fascist. Does no one have any information about Mussolini or Hitler any more?
I always liked Cornell. But his recent moral equivalence on the massacre in Israel is disappointing at best and antisemitic at worst. And the hypocrisy has been beyond anything I could have imagined.
... as must you. ;-)
Glenn, I am one of those undereducated Trump supporters... a Brown university grad with 2 advanced degrees.
I get tired of being painted with the white rural “hick” brush.
Sabrina Salvanti: I'm going to follow her.
I enjoyed this conversation; civil, enlightening, etc... Thanks for having Sabrina on the show Glenn. Thanks to LaJuan for the suggestion of having this conversation. I was not however moved in any way towards the lefts proposals or thinking. Many others have posted about the use of the term fascist. I agree, over used and inappropriately understood to be useful in most debate. I found Sabrina's pointing at the US military industrial complex and it's ranking as 47th in the world in CO2 emissions as a reason for going after it from a climate change perspective to be peculiar. It's a perfectly fine point of view to not appreciate the military industrial complex, that can be debated. But even the most ardent climate change advocate would recognize that once you get beyond even the top 10 producers of CO2 emissions you're swatting at flies when there are gorillas to deal with. I did look up the data (here https://github.com/owid/co2-data) as Sabrina suggested and it's just not a compelling argument. I believe the climate change advocates are right, if we cannot do something to move the heaviest of producers then we cannot do much of anything.
Authoritarianism is the better term.
It is disappointing that Sabrina doesn't know the difference between authoritarianism and fascism and constantly equivocates the two. I guess anyone can start a podcast and their popularity makes them an authority somehow?
So many people throw around the term "fascist" anymore it's nauseating. So many equivocations.
From the Council on Foreign Relations:
"Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent."
Under this definition, Trump was definitely moving in a fascist direction and has fascist elements, though wasn't yet fully there.
Biden could be said to have some fascist elements, perhaps, but if he is considered a "puppet" this negates him being the embodiment of the nation and the supreme savior leader type that is characteristic of fascism.
Part of the revival of American Civics needs to be differentiating "fascist" from "authoritarian". As Glenn says, fascism has a very specific political and historical meaning. It's not a synonym for "authoritarianism" or even (as it seems to be used most often now) for "the worst kind of authoritarianism." Fascism denotes a movement that involves myths of cultural regeneration and martial elements embodied in a strongman leader who enjoys a high level of popularity among the people. In every authoritarian system, there is oppression. In a fascist system, that oppression is often meted out by the people themselves against political opponents, outsiders, minorities and people who resist or area viewed as enemies of the movement. Ironically (or perhaps unironically), ANTIFA may be the closest thing we have in America to a "fascist" organization at the moment - one whose explicit goal is to do violence against its political opponents.
Certainly the Make America Great Again movement fits the bill for a myth of cultural regeneration and there is a cult-of-personality around Trump, but the Trumpian Right's general distrust of all things government disqualifies it from categorization as "fascist." I think of this whenever I see a "Don't Tread on Me" or similar-themed bumper sticker on the same pickup as a "Trump" one - which is quite often. Meanwhile, the American Left in 2023 has no shortage of authoritarian ideas that might be common in a fascist government: from compulsory vaccination to a supreme emphasis on race and ethnicity in policy, and many Americans who identify as left-of-center seem willing to do the government's work for it by outing perceived enemies through cancellation, but the Left lacks any sort of unifying cultural message that can be embodied in and advertised through a strong individual leader. In fact, most of its leaders seek to appear compassionate to a fault, and are afraid of endorsing one culture or value system over others.
Fascism should not be a slur for a politician or policy one disagrees with or thinks is dangerous. There are better, more precise descriptions out there that can effect better results in our national discourse.
I’m astonished by this conversation. It goes back to the puerile epithets thrown around by the SDS people in the sixties, when everyone who didn’t agree with them was a “fascist.” Joe Biden is a bloviating fabulist, a weak and cowardly bully and mentally impaired at this stage, but surely not a fascist. He is just a very average politician from another era and a lousy president. That does not make him a fascist. Does no one have any information about Mussolini or Hitler any more?