Wow… Today! Affirmative Action was ended by SCOTUS. I think mostly good intentions launched it. But I think it’s a skin we've needed to shed for some time. Still, there’s a sort of somber, historical feeling to this ending for me. It was in the weave of our society for a very long time.
My fully capable minority friends and I don't want ANY special treatment based on BIPOC. We will compete on our own abilities, and don't need any boost, because we know we will succeed and have succeeded. It's called AGENCY.
Looking forward to the supreme court ruling so that we can all move on. This discussion is becoming redundant and honestly boring. There are all kinds of preferential (legacy, athletes, students with special skills, donor's kids, etc.) processes that are used and I have a feeling, haven't confirmed, that more "average" students get in through those routes than by race (specifically black kids).
You are claiming that 55% of black folks are in the middle class. That is patentIy false. I disagree with your your inference. You are including in your math upper middle class incomes. You need to shave your numbers. There is the lower and the middle. Which constitute the numbers I am dealing with the range 25,000. to 50,000. dollars. I wrote 1,600,000 of 36,000,000 blacks are middle class. That is 4% of the black population.
"Black Americans make up 12 percent of the middle class and 13 percent of the population. Eighteen percent of the middle class identifies as Hispanic compared to 19 percent of the population.Oct 30, 2020" Brookings Institute
I wrote 4% percent of the black population is middle class. 12% of the U.S. middle class is black. That is less than proportion of blacks the U.S. population.
There is a link between this article by Ruy Texeira and what John is getting at. Cross class solidarity makes sense but will never happen.
The power centers at the core of Democratic Party politics will never give up race based preferences because black middle class women are perhaps the most powerful subgroup in the party. Groups in power never give it up knowingly.
Affirmative action was designed to be a reparatory policy for Negroes/descendants of U.S. slaves for the nearly 20+ generations of wealth extraction, exclusion from education, exclusion from hiring, under payment, slavery and its effects, unconstitutional Jim Crow and the federal government's lax (read absent/negligent) implementation of Negro/DOS rights AND protections.
Affirmative action is about a specific constitutionally protected class of people: The Freedmen (see the post-civil war constitutional amendments 13, 14, 15) and the civil rights acts of the 1860's.
The Freedmen protected class status is forever.
You cannot subtract the contributes of Freedmen from development of the nation itself, therefore, the obligations that affirmative actions are designed to repair are Forever.
Those obligations cannot be obstructed just because SOME Freedmen have finally gained income in the nation we've built and been the human rights engine for. IMAGINE how much richer and even wealthier we would be had our full protections and Reconstruction been fulfilled after 1865! Or if the 6.2 Quadrillion for slave labor alone had not been extracted ... (that doesn't even count the economic terrorism, physical harms, and political disenfranchisement from 1865-1965 nor 1965 to present).
When 75% of Freedmen are in the "top 1%," (as we should be!) I'll consider us not needing AA. Until then, affirmative action now and forever in EVERY domain of economic, educational, and political life.
Dr. Loury at 1:48. I think you miss the mark. Your analogy is irrelevant. Trying to haul Derrick Bell into your argument to suggest your argument is cogent (a clear straw man fallacy) doesn't work.
What is your the definition of Blackness? Well, I mean what is the definition of blackness you have internalized from dominant institutions? You have a 'made' mentality by the invisible white hand.
Why affirmative action? It is because a group of people descended from enslaved Africans have suffered disparate treatment for over 300 years by categorization based upon skin color like the Dalit in India.
The fact that you and your colleague had middle class money 'to pay your way' is irrelevant. So too is the argument you make for poor 'white' kids with pimples on their skin.
Now, clearly both of you have 'made it in a 'white' culture. You are both so psychologically alienated from 'black people'. Early in the 1970s, prestigious universities you two attended were selecting 'black' people because they literally had none on their campuses. I know because I was invited to attend Princeton University. Both of you were lucky when chosen because you were/are black by slave masters' definition. Neither of you really 'paid your way'. You were 'chosen' by the invisible white hand. 12% percent of 'Black' people are middle class today. So, rare birds.
I put this comment up on the YouTube video, but will leave it here as well...
I have a bunch of ideas on this, and I admit that I will not be able to share them all. First of all, white people have a "Protective Benevolence Narrative" in their treatment and view of Black people. Basically, we are pets who need "Massa" to keep us safe and nurture us to success. This is the point-of-view that "the good white folks", mostly left-wing classic liberals, have had for years and years. I would contest John's point about the necessity of that point of view even back in the 60s. Note: I am not saying that racism was not horrible (and more virulent) back then. Instead, I submit that once you deploy "preferential treatment" in the way it is currently contemplated--and frankly this applies to historic affirmative action--there is NO DATE after which it should go away. If you put a cast on a broken limb, you heal it, and you know that you must take it off as soon as possible. If you put a cast on a healthy limb, you weaken it enough that you might never be able to use the limb without "help" or special care. Treating black people like healthy limbs upon which casts have been applied has no long-term upside, and no obvious end point. That CANNOT be good. Further, and maybe tangentially, many if not most black people are familiar with the Tuskegee Airmen. They are revered for their performance. They reputedly never lost a plane they were guarding. Their flying skills were legendary. Why? Because they were trained harder and more strenuously (and likely unfairly) compared to white pilots of the time. Simply put, they WERE better pilots, as a result. I feel more hopeful letting the chips fall where they may than hoping they can slant the system forever. In any event, I am unsure if what I am trying to say makes sense, but at least it is off my chest.
As Thomas Sowell says, affirmative action just results in a mismatch between the student and the university. Unfortunately, then a lot of students end up failing out or just quitting when they probably would have been one of the top students at a different university.
Wow… Today! Affirmative Action was ended by SCOTUS. I think mostly good intentions launched it. But I think it’s a skin we've needed to shed for some time. Still, there’s a sort of somber, historical feeling to this ending for me. It was in the weave of our society for a very long time.
My fully capable minority friends and I don't want ANY special treatment based on BIPOC. We will compete on our own abilities, and don't need any boost, because we know we will succeed and have succeeded. It's called AGENCY.
Looking forward to the supreme court ruling so that we can all move on. This discussion is becoming redundant and honestly boring. There are all kinds of preferential (legacy, athletes, students with special skills, donor's kids, etc.) processes that are used and I have a feeling, haven't confirmed, that more "average" students get in through those routes than by race (specifically black kids).
Republicans block access to abortion. Republicans ban books. Republicans suppress votes. Republicans will end affirmative action.
Republicans hate BLM but want to defund the DOJ and FBI
Unemployment is going down under Democrats.
There is zero rationale for being a Republican.
You are claiming that 55% of black folks are in the middle class. That is patentIy false. I disagree with your your inference. You are including in your math upper middle class incomes. You need to shave your numbers. There is the lower and the middle. Which constitute the numbers I am dealing with the range 25,000. to 50,000. dollars. I wrote 1,600,000 of 36,000,000 blacks are middle class. That is 4% of the black population.
"Black Americans make up 12 percent of the middle class and 13 percent of the population. Eighteen percent of the middle class identifies as Hispanic compared to 19 percent of the population.Oct 30, 2020" Brookings Institute
I wrote 4% percent of the black population is middle class. 12% of the U.S. middle class is black. That is less than proportion of blacks the U.S. population.
There is a link between this article by Ruy Texeira and what John is getting at. Cross class solidarity makes sense but will never happen.
The power centers at the core of Democratic Party politics will never give up race based preferences because black middle class women are perhaps the most powerful subgroup in the party. Groups in power never give it up knowingly.
https://open.substack.com/pub/theliberalpatriot/p/five-reasons-why-democrats-should?r=9cb7a&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Honestly, gentlemen? I can't *wait* for them to strike it down, and this is one of the main reasons.
Thats some rude acne, Scoob.
Affirmative action was designed to be a reparatory policy for Negroes/descendants of U.S. slaves for the nearly 20+ generations of wealth extraction, exclusion from education, exclusion from hiring, under payment, slavery and its effects, unconstitutional Jim Crow and the federal government's lax (read absent/negligent) implementation of Negro/DOS rights AND protections.
Affirmative action is about a specific constitutionally protected class of people: The Freedmen (see the post-civil war constitutional amendments 13, 14, 15) and the civil rights acts of the 1860's.
The Freedmen protected class status is forever.
You cannot subtract the contributes of Freedmen from development of the nation itself, therefore, the obligations that affirmative actions are designed to repair are Forever.
Those obligations cannot be obstructed just because SOME Freedmen have finally gained income in the nation we've built and been the human rights engine for. IMAGINE how much richer and even wealthier we would be had our full protections and Reconstruction been fulfilled after 1865! Or if the 6.2 Quadrillion for slave labor alone had not been extracted ... (that doesn't even count the economic terrorism, physical harms, and political disenfranchisement from 1865-1965 nor 1965 to present).
When 75% of Freedmen are in the "top 1%," (as we should be!) I'll consider us not needing AA. Until then, affirmative action now and forever in EVERY domain of economic, educational, and political life.
Dr. Loury at 1:48. I think you miss the mark. Your analogy is irrelevant. Trying to haul Derrick Bell into your argument to suggest your argument is cogent (a clear straw man fallacy) doesn't work.
What is your the definition of Blackness? Well, I mean what is the definition of blackness you have internalized from dominant institutions? You have a 'made' mentality by the invisible white hand.
Why affirmative action? It is because a group of people descended from enslaved Africans have suffered disparate treatment for over 300 years by categorization based upon skin color like the Dalit in India.
The fact that you and your colleague had middle class money 'to pay your way' is irrelevant. So too is the argument you make for poor 'white' kids with pimples on their skin.
Now, clearly both of you have 'made it in a 'white' culture. You are both so psychologically alienated from 'black people'. Early in the 1970s, prestigious universities you two attended were selecting 'black' people because they literally had none on their campuses. I know because I was invited to attend Princeton University. Both of you were lucky when chosen because you were/are black by slave masters' definition. Neither of you really 'paid your way'. You were 'chosen' by the invisible white hand. 12% percent of 'Black' people are middle class today. So, rare birds.
I put this comment up on the YouTube video, but will leave it here as well...
I have a bunch of ideas on this, and I admit that I will not be able to share them all. First of all, white people have a "Protective Benevolence Narrative" in their treatment and view of Black people. Basically, we are pets who need "Massa" to keep us safe and nurture us to success. This is the point-of-view that "the good white folks", mostly left-wing classic liberals, have had for years and years. I would contest John's point about the necessity of that point of view even back in the 60s. Note: I am not saying that racism was not horrible (and more virulent) back then. Instead, I submit that once you deploy "preferential treatment" in the way it is currently contemplated--and frankly this applies to historic affirmative action--there is NO DATE after which it should go away. If you put a cast on a broken limb, you heal it, and you know that you must take it off as soon as possible. If you put a cast on a healthy limb, you weaken it enough that you might never be able to use the limb without "help" or special care. Treating black people like healthy limbs upon which casts have been applied has no long-term upside, and no obvious end point. That CANNOT be good. Further, and maybe tangentially, many if not most black people are familiar with the Tuskegee Airmen. They are revered for their performance. They reputedly never lost a plane they were guarding. Their flying skills were legendary. Why? Because they were trained harder and more strenuously (and likely unfairly) compared to white pilots of the time. Simply put, they WERE better pilots, as a result. I feel more hopeful letting the chips fall where they may than hoping they can slant the system forever. In any event, I am unsure if what I am trying to say makes sense, but at least it is off my chest.
As Thomas Sowell says, affirmative action just results in a mismatch between the student and the university. Unfortunately, then a lot of students end up failing out or just quitting when they probably would have been one of the top students at a different university.