We’ve got Amy Wax on the show for this Sunday bonus episode. If you follow the show, then you’re no doubt aware that Amy is in the midst with a protracted battle with her employer, the University of Pennsylvania, where she is a tenured professor of law. Penn has found her culpable for violating the institution’s rules of conduct, and they’ll be levying severe penalties against her, including one year’s suspension at half pay, perpetual suspension of summer pay, losing her named chair, and having to preface public remarks with a disclaimer noting that she does not represent the university.
Amy is now suing Penn for free speech and civil rights violations. I’m no legal expert, but I think she’s got a case. In my view, Penn has a problem with Amy’s conservative politics—some of which I share and some of which I don’t. I don’t have to agree with her in order to respect her right to speak her mind.
Elite universities’ attitudes are about to blow up in their faces in a major way. Trump's cuts to federally funded programs with even a whiff of DEI about them will no doubt incur collateral damage. Even researchers working on legitimate projects may have to scramble for support. It’s possible that, had these institutions chosen to protect free speech more vigorously and more disinterestedly, they and their faculty wouldn’t be facing a potentially catastrophic loss of support.
Note: Unfortunately, Amy experienced some recording difficulties, which resulted in an episode that does not meet our usual standards for audio fidelity and clarity. As a result, we’re not posting the episode as a podcast, and we’ve added subtitles to Amy’s side of the video conversation.
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0:00 A note on audio quality
1:08 Glenn: I may not agree with Amy about everything, but I defend her right to speak her mind
4:17 Amy: What’s wrong with Trump evaluating how federal research money is spent?
12:54 The accusations against Amy
19:17 Did Amy violate students’ privacy?
21:44 What it’s not okay to say at Penn
31:52 Amy’s lawsuit against Penn
36:21 Glenn: Aren’t your free speech claims and you civil rights claims contradictory?
38:33 Amy: This is bigger than me
42:11 Can university research infrastructure survive defunding under Trump?
48:32 Glenn: I’m unnerved by the implications of the anti-DEI movement
Recorded February 17, 2025
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