My guests this week, Charles Love and Donique Rolle, turn down the temperature on the sometimes overheated debate about race and education. Charles is a passionate advocate for the power of education to help young black people achieve a successful and productive life—as he says, it’s no coincidence that most African Americans with college degrees are doing pretty well. Donique teaches African American history at a Florida public high school, and she’s found not only that she can do so quite effectively without recourse to critical race theory, but that she rarely gets pushback from parents and students about her approach.
Thanks for a wonderfully engaging debate. Also nice to hear from a fellow homegirl - although I had probably already left Orlando by the time Donique was born :) Having begun my early education (we moved to Ohio when I was twelve) in the lousy Orlando school system, (and it got worse later) it's good to hear Donique approach education with such a truly progressive approach.
I liked Charles's suggestion at the end that black history/culture be taught on the weekends, by those within those communities - makes perfect sense to me as the religious education I got came from two years' worth of Saturdays at our church. History is *so* broad it's hard to cover any appreciable time period in a semester or two. Honestly, I think that's where a lot of this socialization stuff should be - gender whatever, racism teachings, etc. I haven't been in school for a very long time but I wonder if any kid ever learns how to read and write their language properly, whether they're getting any education in history, math, science, geography, social studies, etc. You know, what they taught in schools back when parents raised their own kids. Maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that teachers are the new de facto babysitters and parents.
I just saw Glenn contribute to the Cut the Bull podcast yesterday. It was awesome.
As for this one, it was great conversation as usual. It's good to teach children, or students in general, both sides of an argument so they can understand how to make an argument with empirical evidence.
And that comparison with gays and color segregation is something that bothers many black people. But of course, they have to be careful about voicing their opinions in public.
I enjoyed the discussion overall but the missing element is “Woke Teachers Union” member. When are they going to be included in these debates? The big problem we have in our country is forums presenting one side. This is true across the board ie left, right, center etc. Having discussions w/folks who agree w/you is not helpful at all and is quite annoying and boring. But hopefully Mr Lowry will have these two back along w/two from the other side.✌🏾
The cavalry finally came to my rescue, three years later.
See, my neighborhood was effectively shut down in June 2020 for 2 weeks during the BLM unrest here in West Hollywood — because shutting down a mostly gay neighborhood was the right place to stick it to the man, I guess: "Let's go preach to the choir, school them about what systemic discrimination is. They've had partial equal right for 5 years now. That's enough!" My pharmacy was shuttered, and I was about to get a hip replacement. My list of woes is long and whiny.
So there I am, news helicopters overhead breaking through the earplugs while I'm trying to work. My new lawyer on a slam-dunk court case to collect for unpaid work calls me to review the case. First I have to apologize for the helicopter noise. Then I ask him if there's a legal definition of 'systemic' that I'm not aware of; after 35 years as a professional writer, I know the meaning of a few words, and as far as I can tell, there is no longer systemic racism in America. The question spins into an argument faster than I can make my case. Finally he says, "I can't speak for the Black experience. We need to agree to disagree about this." Click. Two days later, I get a formal letter dropping me as a client.
Three days after that, after taking over our neighborhood for two weeks, BLM boots LA Pride's 50th anniversary parade from honoring them by joining their big finale in Hollywood, cast of a hundred thousand — "they didn't ask properly." So there has to be a separate march call All Black Lives Matter running parallel to the main event. And still nobody objects or questions any of it, but it's okay, we're used to that sort of thing.
You know what, I'm sending this video to those lawyers. Once again, thank you for being you, Dr. Loury.
Reparations and separation! Native Americans are generally doing well with their sovereignty---Indian casinos are generating group wealth. The Native American convicts on my old prison caseload received $10,000. to $20,000. a month from trusts (casino-generated profit).
Black folks went down the wrong path with worthless social integration (begging for white acceptance). MLK was assassinated after strongly advocating for reparations. The black bootlick politicians on both sides of the political spectrum dropped the ball. They're currently self-interest and comforting themselves for death. What is the difference between meritorious manumission Glenn Loury and fish fry South Carolina representative James Clyburn?
Europeans created the construct of race to justify their fuckery in the world (mal-distribution of wealth and power to themselves through genocide, billions of acres of free Indian land, abundant free African labor, colonization, and apartheid.
People in the world were previously and primarily divided by the regions they lived in and by religion. The Europeans appropriated gunpowder and navigation from the Chinese and then went on a rampage around the world taking other people's stuff.
Europeans started the concept of scientific racism, creating a hierarchy of the color caste system that's still prevalent throughout the world today ---whites at the top and blacks at the bottom. I've traveled extensively throughout the world and have taken note.
Now, we Have Charles Murray's pseudo-science (The Bell Curve) that has influenced social policies that are not in the best interests of African Americans. IQ hierarchy: German Jews at the top followed by Asians, Europeans, and (Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, etc. at the bottom) according to Murray.
Racism is an economic relationship. It's a competitive relationship between groups for ownership and control of resources for wealth and power. Europeans got a head start after the Portuguese started the [race] to the new world with the blessings of a Catholic pope who was gifted slaves.
Before the Transatlantic slave trade, Europe was in bad shape: plagued by rampant diseases wiping out half its population, extensive poverty/crime, stagnant mercantile economies, lack of resources, and debauchery (priests raping children).
In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued a Papal Bull (an official Proclamation or decree by the Pope) - Dum Diversas. Dum Diversas had a disastrous effect on millions of Africans. The Portuguese started the transatlantic slave trade. The Pope gave the Portuguese the "right to invade, search out, capture and subdue all Saracens (Muslims) and pagans (Africans) whatsoever. And other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed. And kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."
Putting it other words, the Pope gave the right to a Portuguese King, Alphonso, to invade; capture, enslave, and kill in the name of Jesus. Jesus's representative, the pope, was the devil. Europeans perpetuated one of the worst atrocities ever committed in the world by transporting huge numbers of people across the world for enslavement. All Christian dominations originate from the Catholic Church. The first English slave ship was named Jesus.
In the New World, force and violence were used to convert enslaved Africans to Christianity. Slaves' Bibles were specially written for slaves to promote their
submission and servitude.
White supremacy is a religion to which I refuse to subordinate myself, to say the least, to the LGBTQ community which has high-jacked the black civil rights movement. Gays and trans can hide conveniently in and out of the closet. Black folks don't have that luxury.
At the end of the day, racism is a team sport, especially considering the limited resources on this planet. Default isn't a logical response.
Unskilled undocumented Hispanic immigrants with unearned benefits that illegally enter this country are an existential threat to African Americans. Resources are very limited and diminishing.
In his book, " Presumed Alliance: The Unspoken Conflict Between Blacks and Latinos and What It Means for America, the author, Nicolas C. Vaca, disdained a rainbow coalition and presumed alliance with Black Americans...they wanted to compete with Blacks for political and economic power...they felt that by the mere fact that they were more socially acceptable than Blacks in American society...they could gain socioeconomic benefits and become the nation's majority-minority population. Their goal, according to Vaca, was to displace Blacks in every way possible."
Racism? Lol!!!! And White supremacy is a religion. 50% of Hispanics identify as white in this country.
On the white extremist side: The leader of Proud Boys is Afro-Cuban. The leader of the Oath Keepers militia group is half-white and half-Mexican. Fuentes is a noted white nationalist extremist who is half-white and half-Mexican.
The Hispanic Texas shooter who was found with nazi paraphernalia and hate material?
And whites on both sides of the political spectrum use nonblack minority groups or LBGTQ communities to water down the attention to address the benign neglect of black folks. Intersecting vertical issues with horizontal issues harms African Americans.
On May 1, 1865, thousands of newly freed Black people gathered in Charleston, S.C., for what may have been the nation’s first Memorial Day celebration. Attendees held a parade and put flowers on the graves of Union soldiers who had helped liberate them from slavery.
The event took place three weeks after the Civil War surrender of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee and two weeks after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln. It was a remarkable moment in U.S. history — at the nexus of war and peace, destruction and reconstruction, servitude and emancipation.
But the day would not be remembered as the first Memorial Day. In fact, White Southerners made sure that for more than a century, the day wasn’t remembered at all.
It was “a kind of erasure from public memory,” said David Blight, a history professor at Yale University.
46:54 “You can’t undo the changes in mores and such that are very widely advanced. It’s not a matter of law; it’s a matter of social custom.”
The technology and corollary cultural changes that have enabled the success of the LGBTQ movement may eventually lead to population implosion. So the culture may not change but that doesn’t mean that the people who embrace the culture aren’t going to eventually become so few in number that it dies out and/or is replaced by another culture.
Also the young white progressives who Biden and Democrats very much need are likely to know someone who is LGBT and see every identity-based issue through that lens. I first saw Cori Bush introducing Bernie in 2016 and she had clearly learned to use some LGBT-friendly language in order to attract the progressive voters she would need to beat Lacy Clay even if it was not the first priority for her.
What Ms. Rolle is talking about is absolutely in the mainstream of every commentator on African American life who emphasizes resilience and the refusal to be defeated. Trevor Burnard (a respected person who has contributed to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Slavery) even went as far as to say that slavery was not an existential condition but something that some enslaved people could turn to their advantage and some could not. (He principally studies the Caribbean where some Black people had very skilled, responsible jobs as head driver, head (sugar) boiler etc.) So the question of whether slavery was an existential condition even at the time of Dred Scott is in the background here.
As the absolute worst LGBT ally ever I think you can talk about certain narrow ideas of what family is as a common oppression for both groups but this is getting nowhere in the TGS environment.
Good stuff. As I white women in her mid 50’s when I hear how flippant the word racism is used.. I think to myself .. the real victims of racism have to be “turning over in their graves.” The schools would never dream of intermingling Holocaust with Black history .. but they want to minimize black history by adding LGBTQ .. please I’m still waiting to hear how the LGBTQ people are “marginalized.” If anything Americans are being choked with LGBTQ “rights” talk and the propaganda narrative heard by the left is exhausting. BTW Dave Chappelle speaks a little about this.
Great discussion. Out of the theoretical, down to earth with very good concrete examples. I won’t easily forget Charles Love’s anecdote about his first grader challenging him when asked to flip the light switch on MLK Day. Several creative ideas emerged. More like this, please.
Thanks for a wonderfully engaging debate. Also nice to hear from a fellow homegirl - although I had probably already left Orlando by the time Donique was born :) Having begun my early education (we moved to Ohio when I was twelve) in the lousy Orlando school system, (and it got worse later) it's good to hear Donique approach education with such a truly progressive approach.
I liked Charles's suggestion at the end that black history/culture be taught on the weekends, by those within those communities - makes perfect sense to me as the religious education I got came from two years' worth of Saturdays at our church. History is *so* broad it's hard to cover any appreciable time period in a semester or two. Honestly, I think that's where a lot of this socialization stuff should be - gender whatever, racism teachings, etc. I haven't been in school for a very long time but I wonder if any kid ever learns how to read and write their language properly, whether they're getting any education in history, math, science, geography, social studies, etc. You know, what they taught in schools back when parents raised their own kids. Maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that teachers are the new de facto babysitters and parents.
How about getting Chris Rufo on the podcast to discuss DEI and CRT?
I enjoyed the discussion. Both Charles and Donique are a breath of fresh air.
I was surprised (disappointed) that there was no mention/discussion of the Woodson Foundation's K-12 black history and character curriculum. https://woodsoncenter.org/wp-content/uploads/Woodson-Center-Curriculum-Downloads-web.pdf
A great episode! Please invite more guests fighting in the trenches!
I just saw Glenn contribute to the Cut the Bull podcast yesterday. It was awesome.
As for this one, it was great conversation as usual. It's good to teach children, or students in general, both sides of an argument so they can understand how to make an argument with empirical evidence.
And that comparison with gays and color segregation is something that bothers many black people. But of course, they have to be careful about voicing their opinions in public.
I enjoyed the discussion overall but the missing element is “Woke Teachers Union” member. When are they going to be included in these debates? The big problem we have in our country is forums presenting one side. This is true across the board ie left, right, center etc. Having discussions w/folks who agree w/you is not helpful at all and is quite annoying and boring. But hopefully Mr Lowry will have these two back along w/two from the other side.✌🏾
The cavalry finally came to my rescue, three years later.
See, my neighborhood was effectively shut down in June 2020 for 2 weeks during the BLM unrest here in West Hollywood — because shutting down a mostly gay neighborhood was the right place to stick it to the man, I guess: "Let's go preach to the choir, school them about what systemic discrimination is. They've had partial equal right for 5 years now. That's enough!" My pharmacy was shuttered, and I was about to get a hip replacement. My list of woes is long and whiny.
So there I am, news helicopters overhead breaking through the earplugs while I'm trying to work. My new lawyer on a slam-dunk court case to collect for unpaid work calls me to review the case. First I have to apologize for the helicopter noise. Then I ask him if there's a legal definition of 'systemic' that I'm not aware of; after 35 years as a professional writer, I know the meaning of a few words, and as far as I can tell, there is no longer systemic racism in America. The question spins into an argument faster than I can make my case. Finally he says, "I can't speak for the Black experience. We need to agree to disagree about this." Click. Two days later, I get a formal letter dropping me as a client.
Three days after that, after taking over our neighborhood for two weeks, BLM boots LA Pride's 50th anniversary parade from honoring them by joining their big finale in Hollywood, cast of a hundred thousand — "they didn't ask properly." So there has to be a separate march call All Black Lives Matter running parallel to the main event. And still nobody objects or questions any of it, but it's okay, we're used to that sort of thing.
You know what, I'm sending this video to those lawyers. Once again, thank you for being you, Dr. Loury.
Reparations and separation! Native Americans are generally doing well with their sovereignty---Indian casinos are generating group wealth. The Native American convicts on my old prison caseload received $10,000. to $20,000. a month from trusts (casino-generated profit).
Black folks went down the wrong path with worthless social integration (begging for white acceptance). MLK was assassinated after strongly advocating for reparations. The black bootlick politicians on both sides of the political spectrum dropped the ball. They're currently self-interest and comforting themselves for death. What is the difference between meritorious manumission Glenn Loury and fish fry South Carolina representative James Clyburn?
Europeans created the construct of race to justify their fuckery in the world (mal-distribution of wealth and power to themselves through genocide, billions of acres of free Indian land, abundant free African labor, colonization, and apartheid.
People in the world were previously and primarily divided by the regions they lived in and by religion. The Europeans appropriated gunpowder and navigation from the Chinese and then went on a rampage around the world taking other people's stuff.
Europeans started the concept of scientific racism, creating a hierarchy of the color caste system that's still prevalent throughout the world today ---whites at the top and blacks at the bottom. I've traveled extensively throughout the world and have taken note.
Now, we Have Charles Murray's pseudo-science (The Bell Curve) that has influenced social policies that are not in the best interests of African Americans. IQ hierarchy: German Jews at the top followed by Asians, Europeans, and (Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, etc. at the bottom) according to Murray.
Racism is an economic relationship. It's a competitive relationship between groups for ownership and control of resources for wealth and power. Europeans got a head start after the Portuguese started the [race] to the new world with the blessings of a Catholic pope who was gifted slaves.
Before the Transatlantic slave trade, Europe was in bad shape: plagued by rampant diseases wiping out half its population, extensive poverty/crime, stagnant mercantile economies, lack of resources, and debauchery (priests raping children).
In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued a Papal Bull (an official Proclamation or decree by the Pope) - Dum Diversas. Dum Diversas had a disastrous effect on millions of Africans. The Portuguese started the transatlantic slave trade. The Pope gave the Portuguese the "right to invade, search out, capture and subdue all Saracens (Muslims) and pagans (Africans) whatsoever. And other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed. And kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."
Putting it other words, the Pope gave the right to a Portuguese King, Alphonso, to invade; capture, enslave, and kill in the name of Jesus. Jesus's representative, the pope, was the devil. Europeans perpetuated one of the worst atrocities ever committed in the world by transporting huge numbers of people across the world for enslavement. All Christian dominations originate from the Catholic Church. The first English slave ship was named Jesus.
In the New World, force and violence were used to convert enslaved Africans to Christianity. Slaves' Bibles were specially written for slaves to promote their
submission and servitude.
White supremacy is a religion to which I refuse to subordinate myself, to say the least, to the LGBTQ community which has high-jacked the black civil rights movement. Gays and trans can hide conveniently in and out of the closet. Black folks don't have that luxury.
At the end of the day, racism is a team sport, especially considering the limited resources on this planet. Default isn't a logical response.
Unskilled undocumented Hispanic immigrants with unearned benefits that illegally enter this country are an existential threat to African Americans. Resources are very limited and diminishing.
In his book, " Presumed Alliance: The Unspoken Conflict Between Blacks and Latinos and What It Means for America, the author, Nicolas C. Vaca, disdained a rainbow coalition and presumed alliance with Black Americans...they wanted to compete with Blacks for political and economic power...they felt that by the mere fact that they were more socially acceptable than Blacks in American society...they could gain socioeconomic benefits and become the nation's majority-minority population. Their goal, according to Vaca, was to displace Blacks in every way possible."
Racism? Lol!!!! And White supremacy is a religion. 50% of Hispanics identify as white in this country.
On the white extremist side: The leader of Proud Boys is Afro-Cuban. The leader of the Oath Keepers militia group is half-white and half-Mexican. Fuentes is a noted white nationalist extremist who is half-white and half-Mexican.
The Hispanic Texas shooter who was found with nazi paraphernalia and hate material?
And whites on both sides of the political spectrum use nonblack minority groups or LBGTQ communities to water down the attention to address the benign neglect of black folks. Intersecting vertical issues with horizontal issues harms African Americans.
Origins of Memorial Day
On May 1, 1865, thousands of newly freed Black people gathered in Charleston, S.C., for what may have been the nation’s first Memorial Day celebration. Attendees held a parade and put flowers on the graves of Union soldiers who had helped liberate them from slavery.
The event took place three weeks after the Civil War surrender of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee and two weeks after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln. It was a remarkable moment in U.S. history — at the nexus of war and peace, destruction and reconstruction, servitude and emancipation.
But the day would not be remembered as the first Memorial Day. In fact, White Southerners made sure that for more than a century, the day wasn’t remembered at all.
It was “a kind of erasure from public memory,” said David Blight, a history professor at Yale University.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2023/05/29/first-memorial-day-black-charleston/
46:54 “You can’t undo the changes in mores and such that are very widely advanced. It’s not a matter of law; it’s a matter of social custom.”
The technology and corollary cultural changes that have enabled the success of the LGBTQ movement may eventually lead to population implosion. So the culture may not change but that doesn’t mean that the people who embrace the culture aren’t going to eventually become so few in number that it dies out and/or is replaced by another culture.
Also the young white progressives who Biden and Democrats very much need are likely to know someone who is LGBT and see every identity-based issue through that lens. I first saw Cori Bush introducing Bernie in 2016 and she had clearly learned to use some LGBT-friendly language in order to attract the progressive voters she would need to beat Lacy Clay even if it was not the first priority for her.
What Ms. Rolle is talking about is absolutely in the mainstream of every commentator on African American life who emphasizes resilience and the refusal to be defeated. Trevor Burnard (a respected person who has contributed to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Slavery) even went as far as to say that slavery was not an existential condition but something that some enslaved people could turn to their advantage and some could not. (He principally studies the Caribbean where some Black people had very skilled, responsible jobs as head driver, head (sugar) boiler etc.) So the question of whether slavery was an existential condition even at the time of Dred Scott is in the background here.
As the absolute worst LGBT ally ever I think you can talk about certain narrow ideas of what family is as a common oppression for both groups but this is getting nowhere in the TGS environment.
Good stuff. As I white women in her mid 50’s when I hear how flippant the word racism is used.. I think to myself .. the real victims of racism have to be “turning over in their graves.” The schools would never dream of intermingling Holocaust with Black history .. but they want to minimize black history by adding LGBTQ .. please I’m still waiting to hear how the LGBTQ people are “marginalized.” If anything Americans are being choked with LGBTQ “rights” talk and the propaganda narrative heard by the left is exhausting. BTW Dave Chappelle speaks a little about this.
Here's some info from the front lines on "book banning" in Florida (Duval County is mostly Jacksonville).
https://www.teamduval.org/2023/02/17/facts-about-library-books-in-duval-county-public-schools/
Great discussion. Out of the theoretical, down to earth with very good concrete examples. I won’t easily forget Charles Love’s anecdote about his first grader challenging him when asked to flip the light switch on MLK Day. Several creative ideas emerged. More like this, please.