On January 7 of this year, a 29-year-old Memphis man named Tyre Nichols died as a result of injuries incurred at the hands of police during a traffic stop. Nichols was black, as are the five officers who beat him, and even in an era when police killings of unarmed black men routinely make national headlines, this incident stands out as particularly horrific. There is nothing Nichols could have done to deserve such treatment. The officers involved, and possibly the EMTs who failed to administer care in a timely fashion, will stand trial, and we will hopefully learn more about the killing. But in the meantime, John and I wanted to try to understand how this could have happened, so we called on our friend Peter Moskos, a sociologist at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a former Baltimore cop.
I very much agree with Glenn's take on the funeral, the trio of Sharpton, Crump, Dyson. I didnt see it. I cant take any of them, so luckily I abstained. John's take... cognitive dissonance.
I don't know why Glenn found it "distasteful" to wonder if lower hiring standards were part of the problem here. It's happening and it doesn't inspire confidence. The behavior, for one, clearly was horrendous. Putting that aside, in a cold light, they just weren't too bright to beat someone while their cameras were on, to pepper spray each other! Additionally, for an "elite unit" that is meant to do the tough stuff, some of those cops seemed physically under par. At least one, maybe two, was overweight and terribly winded for a very long time after the chase had ended. He seemed to need a good long break.
At the start of this John said he thought there would have been more protests if the cops who attacked Tyre had been white, not black. I’d say riotous protests, and wonder how many of us had this thought - like virtually everybody? But virtually no one stated it clearly, not publicly, I bet. In the lead up to the video release, the media was sort of perfunctorily posing the question of what the protest reaction would be, but they weren’t that excited, as if they — often the pushers of racial division, cloaked in ‘important news’ and ‘concern’ — knew it wouldn’t be much. So I expected we’d see what we saw - far milder protests than with Floyd (and going back to Michael Brown), because the bad cops were black. I might be wrong, but I doubt I am.
I was reminded of an older SNL skit. I may not be describing it exactly right, but here’s the gist of what I recall: It was a local news show with 2 hosts, one black and one white, and whenever they’d report some crime or crazy behavior, they’d anxiously wait to see what race the perp was, and if it was the other’s race, they’d exhale with great relief, do a sort of celebratory “winner” display, while the other host would be the “loser”. It went back and forth. I imagined this when I thought of the disappointment felt by those so heavily invested in “winning” by using the right narrative, that of white oppressor harming black victim, except now it was upside down.
I also think the immediate firing and charging of the cops involved may well have helped tamp down the lust for riotous behavior, but I couldn’t help but feel a sort of collective “Damn! Uh oh, hit the pause button.. this does not compute… how do we fix this? How do we blame it on white people?” Although a bit awkward, and less than ideal, it didn’t take long for them to find cover, thanks to their relentless efforts since the Floyd incident to hyper-fertilize the seeds ( already sown), of “systemic racism” into our nation’s consciousness.
One has to ask these anti-racist people if Africans were all angels on earth until white people got to them, which then caused every hardship and bad behavior of theirs to be transferred to collective white guilt forever more. (Hey now, even if mama beat me, that’s because she too was a victim!) Or maybe this ends the day reparations fix everything? Ha! Its gotten to where, given how pervasive this conditioning of white supremacy/systemic racism has become, I have to wonder if the black person infected by it becomes incapable of recognizing that when they are flailing or failing or not feeling good, it's not due to systemic racism, or those evil white people, but instead, hey, welcome to the world. Welcome to the human race! Welcome to a world that's long been quite familiar to many of us, where we experience all sort of insecurities, social anxiety, depression, neurosis, bad hair day blues, flaws, failings, problems of every sort. These are the words we sometimes use to describe ourselves when there’s not a race card to play.
Gentle happy to be able to tune out n this afternoon. The sun is shining rather brightly here in the village of Harlem north. That’s also known as NOHA, thanks to the renaming of her. Anyway I am waiting patiently for a shoe to drop concerning a rumor that one of the accused officers was annoyed about Tyre Nichols involvement with his girlfriend. If that is substantiated, it would then make the case for police brethren brutality. They would then be acting on behalf of that particular officer. Naturally I would not be supportive of such actions. Especially understanding fully the officers sworn duty to protect and serve.
On the question of why the behavior of the cops was so ferocious after they pulled the man over, I would like to see a toxicity-screen done on every cop involved, their blood sample taken right after the incident: I wonder what would show up; alcohol, marijuana, opioid painkillers, amphetamines, cocaine?
Sometimes, I’ve read, that the energy from a person who is high on drugs, can give a “contact high” to people around them.
We’ll never know who, if any, among the police, was hopped up on a substance.
The police behavior appeared to be that of an organized criminal gang with no respect for the law or anyone’s personal safety.
Why they behaved the brutal way they did is the million dollar question.
“Was the victim effeminate?” OMG!
Were the cops high?
We’re they hopped up on anything other than adrenaline and power?
As far as Glenn’s anguish over the funeral, I think it’s misplaced. Glen’s take is perfectly legitimate (I understand and agree with his interpretation on that level), but there’s also another take on it and a third take on it, and the more ways you can see that blackbird the more comprehensive will be your multi-level understanding.
Kickbacks and funding from Soros and similarly motivated billionaires. Obama is surely somewhere in the mix, among others. Remember he said he wanted to “fundamentally change America”. That program is underway.
Excellent chat, guys. I didn't watch the Tyre Nichols funeral but it went down, apparently, as I expected - as you described it. It certainly points to how some civil rights activists just can't function if racism isn't involved, and if it's not there they have to find it (which they're very good at doing). What I noticed is that Black Lives Matter Memphis was remarkably quiet about it, at least on Twitter in the days after Nichols's death. I really wish they'd change their name to something less dishonest because it's *never* been about all black lives. I don't even care that they want to focus only on state killings, that's fine, but change your name to reflect that, don't pretend to care about all black lives when you ignore all the ones killed by blacks.
They can't ignore this one, so they sort of have to haphazardly find the racist angle. Well, white supremacy is their preferred bogeyman. (Is that racist? Should I call it boogerman? :)
When it happened, when I saw it was five black cops I thought, "Can we please finally acknowledge the problem isn't specifically 'white supremacy' or even white cops, but a militarized, brutal, ultraviolent police system?"
I saw a recent video by Piers Morgan who had a Black woman from the far left on the show, claiming that the incident was in fact evidence of White Supremacy, as apparently these feelings have been internalized by Black cops over their lifetime, which manifest later when the victim acts as the aggressor.
By this logic, my neighbor's dog barking last night, my cheese going bad, and my bed getting rather lumpy lately, are all evidences of White Supremacy.
How many innocent lives could be saved if we held every death to this standard of "zero tolerance"! Police don't kill randomly, they also concentrate their policing on folks who commit violence against innocent citizens. Look at the % of violent crimes committed by a segment of our population not their % of the population at large when reaching conclusions about policing equity! Big city "clearance rates" for violent crimes are abysmal...you have a 2/3 chance of getting away with murder in some, where is the "justice" that everyone chants about for those victims? Those murders aren't randomly committed by the population at large, so of course there will be more police interactions with the subgroup who represent most of the "perps" and they will resist capture with violence towards the police disproportionately as compared to the population at large, and some will be killed in the process.
This was a very important and enlightening discussion. The problems in policing are complex and simplistic solutions (and, indeed simplistic ideas of causation) aren't enough. Pursuing policies based on erroneous ideas waste time by leading us away from the truth. They may elevate some loud voices but delay aid and comfort to those who need it.
So many important points were raised. I'd like to amplify just a few, ranging from the specific to the broad. Hopefully, all pertain to the subject of human nature, which we all share.
Peter was a cop and obviously understands the culture as well as the realities, good and bad, of being the individual cop on the street. The way he mentioned how the cops maced each other, what mace is for and how the cops' incompetent error contributed as a trigger to their brutality towards Mr. Nichols rings with insight and truth. As do his other citations of obvious policing incompetence. These accumulated fatally for Mr. Nichols. And not because of any element of racism. "Otherism", perhaps, but not racism.
Moving back slightly, we come to Peter's comments about sergeants and the cultures which can develop in these specialized units. While valuing and respecting individuality, most human beings don't like to be complete outliers in their group. Tones are set. Approval and disapproval through immediate feedback and correction from respected elders are critically important. Nothing could be more consistent with human nature. The valuable sergeant will teach officers to get to know the people in their district, to always be fair, speak the truth, see them as individuals of value. And to show respect. You want to be thought of as on the same team, not an opponent. You want to have an ordinary citizen of the district whisper, "Hey Officer James, careful of that guy up there on the roof with a brick."
Even better when a respected lieutenant or captain teaches the same. And on to the chief. It seems the department didn't ensure a proper culture was knitted with these concepts. That's a failure everyone, right up through the command staff, are on the hook for. They probably contributed to this man's death. And while I've paused to think long and hard about saying it, the chief may be a wonderful person and terrific cop who really gets it. But if she is lacking in experience and/or her understanding of these realities, yet was appointed because of other considerations such as diversity and nothing else, then we might have some clues as to why setting the right tone and creating the right culture went neglected. Considerations of diversity, alone, aren't sufficient qualifications to become a chief of police. Either way, there was a cultural problem and responsibility for that goes all the way to the chief.
Peter is right that these units are necessary if we want to accomplish the very necessary goal of taking guns off the street, reducing homicides and dealing properly with the bad guys. It's just that it will all fall apart if the tone and culture generates a bunch of cowboys. No matter their race.
Speaking of "bad guys", that's the term cops use to characterize certain subjects as they describe events to other cops or to prosecutors ahead of giving testimony. (some cultures use "perps", an action word, at times) Cops don't focus on the race of the person so much as whether he's a bad guy. Bad guys harm people and property. Bad guys destroy neighborhoods. Cops generally became cops to be the good guys and to protect good people from the bad guys. It may sound simplistic but it's part of their identity. The reality is cops want to be a force for good. They just need to be trained by good, experienced veterans who know of the dangers of doing things the wrong way and both exemplify and teach doing things the right way.
Here's another consideration. When cops perceive they are vilified for such things as high incarceration rates of, for example, young black men, it's easy to understand how they would instantly bridle and say, "No! I didn't arrest guys because of their race; I simply arrested the bad guys! Look at what they did. Look at the lives they ruined; look at the young girl who died in the crossfire. Race had nothing to do with it." There are those, most of whom never walked the streets they write about, who will say the cop just doesn't get it and is dominated by various implicit biases and structural racism but that seems too convenient a path towards ignoring those who have indeed walked those streets.
It's easy to understand how frustration can build inside a person when their life's work and their very identity is mischaracterized by some academics and "leaders". "No! It's the bad guys! I'm not the 'Other' here..." What are the dangers of building such internal frustrations?
Certainly these frustrations are intensified by a related flavor of the month, lately championed by a brand of "progressive" prosecutors. Most seem to be former criminal defense attorneys who brought their own biases and assumptions, including those which underpin their explanations of disproportionate percentages of incarceration, to their offices while neglecting to consider factors far more pertinent. But that's another chapter.
Blaming everything on race and racism seems to be the season we are in right now. It's hard to push back against, even in areas where these concepts stray from the truth. Yet we see this square peg being forced into a round hole in Mr. Nichols' case. We see strangers to the family performing at Mr. Nichols' funeral. It seems many "leaders" have too high a stake in the racism game to reflect on whether they have it right or not. Same with perpetuating lazy assumptions about policing. That's a shame. He deserves better.
I really disagree with John on this one. I am originally from NY and once ran into Sharpton many years ago in Harlem. His mannerism was that of an intelligent thug albeit, admittedly, it was many years ago. He has mellowed with age but consistently fails to present both sides of an argument related to black socio-economic, cultural, issues, and places no responsibility on black people in today's America to focus on self-responsibility, the acquisition of skills, education and the reunification of fathers in the home. Where is that message being touted by the race hustlers?
Frankly, I had no intention of watching the funeral, with all due respect to the family, as I anticipated it would be a clown show featuring the usual cast of characters. I, too, was horrified at the very suggestion that Ben Crump, a rambling, incoherent, ambulance chasing Step-in-Fetchit is Black America's Attorney General. What? I am embarrassed and beyond depressed. Thank God for Glenn, John, and other free thinkers that have climbed the mountaintop, looked over, and realized that there is no one to save us but ourselves.
Great episode. How do the “everything is white supremacy” commentators explain incidents where a white cop kills a white civilian? Maybe these cops are seeking to improve the white race by eliminating delinquents?
It was useful to hear from a former cop about all of the signs of incompetence, lack of training, etc. But I’m less optimistic that this problem can be fixed one department at a time. Sure, let’s do what we can to reform the police. But I believe this will keep happening because everyone has guns, cops are on edge, and and there is a ton of criminal activity they’re supposed to be confronting (especially drugs, domestic violence, gang violence). Mental health crises are another factor.
As a Briton with an American wife, who lived for a while in California before making a compromise and moving north of the border, my outsider take on the horrors of public order in your today rather abysmally dysfunctional society, is that your police forces need serious reform. There is too much space in them for those who have an institutionalised cult of violence instead of of service. There is still too much space in American society as a whole for the myth of force, not as a necessary tool but as a means to bring about justice. I feel that there is some place in which the American subconscious, on all matters, projects superhero comics -- where all issues are very simple and violence never causes true irreparable damage.
I still remember the comments of American viewers about a CBC documentary, some 10 years ago, on how British police was trained to respond to violent threat emergencies, which showed a video of policemen in riot armour surrounding a deranged man with a machete and disarming him over a length of time in which they talked to him constantly, resulting in nobody being injured. The comments of many American viewers were that it was insane to risk the safety of policemen that way, that a dangerous person with a weapon should be shot. And that is a mentality I have encountered constantly in the USA and never in Europe at large.
I think this attitude is what contributes to your problems with the police and policing. The racism discourse is a big distraction from the real problem, which is the problem of a society (whatever the race or ethnicity) that believes in the redeeming power of violence.
Mind, on all of this is grafted the old problem of the police being -- everywhere all over the world -- one of the executive branches of the "Establishment": which traditionally in the eyes of the Left (mostly the revolutionary Left, but some ideas are hard to die out even when one has become part of the establishment) is the Enemy. So, the henchmen of the Enemy.
Getting out of those ingrained attitudes, both left and right, is certainly not a small endeavour. But it is an urgent one to avoid the degradation of civic society.
Good show! Good move to include the insights and experiences from guest, Peter Moskos.
I very much agree with Glenn's take on the funeral, the trio of Sharpton, Crump, Dyson. I didnt see it. I cant take any of them, so luckily I abstained. John's take... cognitive dissonance.
I don't know why Glenn found it "distasteful" to wonder if lower hiring standards were part of the problem here. It's happening and it doesn't inspire confidence. The behavior, for one, clearly was horrendous. Putting that aside, in a cold light, they just weren't too bright to beat someone while their cameras were on, to pepper spray each other! Additionally, for an "elite unit" that is meant to do the tough stuff, some of those cops seemed physically under par. At least one, maybe two, was overweight and terribly winded for a very long time after the chase had ended. He seemed to need a good long break.
At the start of this John said he thought there would have been more protests if the cops who attacked Tyre had been white, not black. I’d say riotous protests, and wonder how many of us had this thought - like virtually everybody? But virtually no one stated it clearly, not publicly, I bet. In the lead up to the video release, the media was sort of perfunctorily posing the question of what the protest reaction would be, but they weren’t that excited, as if they — often the pushers of racial division, cloaked in ‘important news’ and ‘concern’ — knew it wouldn’t be much. So I expected we’d see what we saw - far milder protests than with Floyd (and going back to Michael Brown), because the bad cops were black. I might be wrong, but I doubt I am.
I was reminded of an older SNL skit. I may not be describing it exactly right, but here’s the gist of what I recall: It was a local news show with 2 hosts, one black and one white, and whenever they’d report some crime or crazy behavior, they’d anxiously wait to see what race the perp was, and if it was the other’s race, they’d exhale with great relief, do a sort of celebratory “winner” display, while the other host would be the “loser”. It went back and forth. I imagined this when I thought of the disappointment felt by those so heavily invested in “winning” by using the right narrative, that of white oppressor harming black victim, except now it was upside down.
I also think the immediate firing and charging of the cops involved may well have helped tamp down the lust for riotous behavior, but I couldn’t help but feel a sort of collective “Damn! Uh oh, hit the pause button.. this does not compute… how do we fix this? How do we blame it on white people?” Although a bit awkward, and less than ideal, it didn’t take long for them to find cover, thanks to their relentless efforts since the Floyd incident to hyper-fertilize the seeds ( already sown), of “systemic racism” into our nation’s consciousness.
One has to ask these anti-racist people if Africans were all angels on earth until white people got to them, which then caused every hardship and bad behavior of theirs to be transferred to collective white guilt forever more. (Hey now, even if mama beat me, that’s because she too was a victim!) Or maybe this ends the day reparations fix everything? Ha! Its gotten to where, given how pervasive this conditioning of white supremacy/systemic racism has become, I have to wonder if the black person infected by it becomes incapable of recognizing that when they are flailing or failing or not feeling good, it's not due to systemic racism, or those evil white people, but instead, hey, welcome to the world. Welcome to the human race! Welcome to a world that's long been quite familiar to many of us, where we experience all sort of insecurities, social anxiety, depression, neurosis, bad hair day blues, flaws, failings, problems of every sort. These are the words we sometimes use to describe ourselves when there’s not a race card to play.
Gentle happy to be able to tune out n this afternoon. The sun is shining rather brightly here in the village of Harlem north. That’s also known as NOHA, thanks to the renaming of her. Anyway I am waiting patiently for a shoe to drop concerning a rumor that one of the accused officers was annoyed about Tyre Nichols involvement with his girlfriend. If that is substantiated, it would then make the case for police brethren brutality. They would then be acting on behalf of that particular officer. Naturally I would not be supportive of such actions. Especially understanding fully the officers sworn duty to protect and serve.
Thank you for this discussion.
On the question of why the behavior of the cops was so ferocious after they pulled the man over, I would like to see a toxicity-screen done on every cop involved, their blood sample taken right after the incident: I wonder what would show up; alcohol, marijuana, opioid painkillers, amphetamines, cocaine?
Sometimes, I’ve read, that the energy from a person who is high on drugs, can give a “contact high” to people around them.
We’ll never know who, if any, among the police, was hopped up on a substance.
The police behavior appeared to be that of an organized criminal gang with no respect for the law or anyone’s personal safety.
Why they behaved the brutal way they did is the million dollar question.
“Was the victim effeminate?” OMG!
Were the cops high?
We’re they hopped up on anything other than adrenaline and power?
As far as Glenn’s anguish over the funeral, I think it’s misplaced. Glen’s take is perfectly legitimate (I understand and agree with his interpretation on that level), but there’s also another take on it and a third take on it, and the more ways you can see that blackbird the more comprehensive will be your multi-level understanding.
The funeral produced truly great theater.
“The truth serves many masters.”
Did I just make that up? Huh?
Kickbacks and funding from Soros and similarly motivated billionaires. Obama is surely somewhere in the mix, among others. Remember he said he wanted to “fundamentally change America”. That program is underway.
Excellent chat, guys. I didn't watch the Tyre Nichols funeral but it went down, apparently, as I expected - as you described it. It certainly points to how some civil rights activists just can't function if racism isn't involved, and if it's not there they have to find it (which they're very good at doing). What I noticed is that Black Lives Matter Memphis was remarkably quiet about it, at least on Twitter in the days after Nichols's death. I really wish they'd change their name to something less dishonest because it's *never* been about all black lives. I don't even care that they want to focus only on state killings, that's fine, but change your name to reflect that, don't pretend to care about all black lives when you ignore all the ones killed by blacks.
They can't ignore this one, so they sort of have to haphazardly find the racist angle. Well, white supremacy is their preferred bogeyman. (Is that racist? Should I call it boogerman? :)
When it happened, when I saw it was five black cops I thought, "Can we please finally acknowledge the problem isn't specifically 'white supremacy' or even white cops, but a militarized, brutal, ultraviolent police system?"
No, apparently.
I saw a recent video by Piers Morgan who had a Black woman from the far left on the show, claiming that the incident was in fact evidence of White Supremacy, as apparently these feelings have been internalized by Black cops over their lifetime, which manifest later when the victim acts as the aggressor.
By this logic, my neighbor's dog barking last night, my cheese going bad, and my bed getting rather lumpy lately, are all evidences of White Supremacy.
How many innocent lives could be saved if we held every death to this standard of "zero tolerance"! Police don't kill randomly, they also concentrate their policing on folks who commit violence against innocent citizens. Look at the % of violent crimes committed by a segment of our population not their % of the population at large when reaching conclusions about policing equity! Big city "clearance rates" for violent crimes are abysmal...you have a 2/3 chance of getting away with murder in some, where is the "justice" that everyone chants about for those victims? Those murders aren't randomly committed by the population at large, so of course there will be more police interactions with the subgroup who represent most of the "perps" and they will resist capture with violence towards the police disproportionately as compared to the population at large, and some will be killed in the process.
This was a very important and enlightening discussion. The problems in policing are complex and simplistic solutions (and, indeed simplistic ideas of causation) aren't enough. Pursuing policies based on erroneous ideas waste time by leading us away from the truth. They may elevate some loud voices but delay aid and comfort to those who need it.
So many important points were raised. I'd like to amplify just a few, ranging from the specific to the broad. Hopefully, all pertain to the subject of human nature, which we all share.
Peter was a cop and obviously understands the culture as well as the realities, good and bad, of being the individual cop on the street. The way he mentioned how the cops maced each other, what mace is for and how the cops' incompetent error contributed as a trigger to their brutality towards Mr. Nichols rings with insight and truth. As do his other citations of obvious policing incompetence. These accumulated fatally for Mr. Nichols. And not because of any element of racism. "Otherism", perhaps, but not racism.
Moving back slightly, we come to Peter's comments about sergeants and the cultures which can develop in these specialized units. While valuing and respecting individuality, most human beings don't like to be complete outliers in their group. Tones are set. Approval and disapproval through immediate feedback and correction from respected elders are critically important. Nothing could be more consistent with human nature. The valuable sergeant will teach officers to get to know the people in their district, to always be fair, speak the truth, see them as individuals of value. And to show respect. You want to be thought of as on the same team, not an opponent. You want to have an ordinary citizen of the district whisper, "Hey Officer James, careful of that guy up there on the roof with a brick."
Even better when a respected lieutenant or captain teaches the same. And on to the chief. It seems the department didn't ensure a proper culture was knitted with these concepts. That's a failure everyone, right up through the command staff, are on the hook for. They probably contributed to this man's death. And while I've paused to think long and hard about saying it, the chief may be a wonderful person and terrific cop who really gets it. But if she is lacking in experience and/or her understanding of these realities, yet was appointed because of other considerations such as diversity and nothing else, then we might have some clues as to why setting the right tone and creating the right culture went neglected. Considerations of diversity, alone, aren't sufficient qualifications to become a chief of police. Either way, there was a cultural problem and responsibility for that goes all the way to the chief.
Peter is right that these units are necessary if we want to accomplish the very necessary goal of taking guns off the street, reducing homicides and dealing properly with the bad guys. It's just that it will all fall apart if the tone and culture generates a bunch of cowboys. No matter their race.
Speaking of "bad guys", that's the term cops use to characterize certain subjects as they describe events to other cops or to prosecutors ahead of giving testimony. (some cultures use "perps", an action word, at times) Cops don't focus on the race of the person so much as whether he's a bad guy. Bad guys harm people and property. Bad guys destroy neighborhoods. Cops generally became cops to be the good guys and to protect good people from the bad guys. It may sound simplistic but it's part of their identity. The reality is cops want to be a force for good. They just need to be trained by good, experienced veterans who know of the dangers of doing things the wrong way and both exemplify and teach doing things the right way.
Here's another consideration. When cops perceive they are vilified for such things as high incarceration rates of, for example, young black men, it's easy to understand how they would instantly bridle and say, "No! I didn't arrest guys because of their race; I simply arrested the bad guys! Look at what they did. Look at the lives they ruined; look at the young girl who died in the crossfire. Race had nothing to do with it." There are those, most of whom never walked the streets they write about, who will say the cop just doesn't get it and is dominated by various implicit biases and structural racism but that seems too convenient a path towards ignoring those who have indeed walked those streets.
It's easy to understand how frustration can build inside a person when their life's work and their very identity is mischaracterized by some academics and "leaders". "No! It's the bad guys! I'm not the 'Other' here..." What are the dangers of building such internal frustrations?
Certainly these frustrations are intensified by a related flavor of the month, lately championed by a brand of "progressive" prosecutors. Most seem to be former criminal defense attorneys who brought their own biases and assumptions, including those which underpin their explanations of disproportionate percentages of incarceration, to their offices while neglecting to consider factors far more pertinent. But that's another chapter.
Blaming everything on race and racism seems to be the season we are in right now. It's hard to push back against, even in areas where these concepts stray from the truth. Yet we see this square peg being forced into a round hole in Mr. Nichols' case. We see strangers to the family performing at Mr. Nichols' funeral. It seems many "leaders" have too high a stake in the racism game to reflect on whether they have it right or not. Same with perpetuating lazy assumptions about policing. That's a shame. He deserves better.
Guest Peter Mosko? Is he with the police department or some other institution? He was interesting. Thank you Glenn and John.
I really disagree with John on this one. I am originally from NY and once ran into Sharpton many years ago in Harlem. His mannerism was that of an intelligent thug albeit, admittedly, it was many years ago. He has mellowed with age but consistently fails to present both sides of an argument related to black socio-economic, cultural, issues, and places no responsibility on black people in today's America to focus on self-responsibility, the acquisition of skills, education and the reunification of fathers in the home. Where is that message being touted by the race hustlers?
Frankly, I had no intention of watching the funeral, with all due respect to the family, as I anticipated it would be a clown show featuring the usual cast of characters. I, too, was horrified at the very suggestion that Ben Crump, a rambling, incoherent, ambulance chasing Step-in-Fetchit is Black America's Attorney General. What? I am embarrassed and beyond depressed. Thank God for Glenn, John, and other free thinkers that have climbed the mountaintop, looked over, and realized that there is no one to save us but ourselves.
Very interesting discussion! Any death by cop is a tragedy. It is unfortunate that this case is being exploited for politics.
I am so glad to hear Peter Moskos say that the aim of some of the loudest voices wanting to reform police in fact want its abolishment,
When I would hear "Defund the Police", I heard the unsaid subtext, "Demoralize the Police".
Great episode. How do the “everything is white supremacy” commentators explain incidents where a white cop kills a white civilian? Maybe these cops are seeking to improve the white race by eliminating delinquents?
It was useful to hear from a former cop about all of the signs of incompetence, lack of training, etc. But I’m less optimistic that this problem can be fixed one department at a time. Sure, let’s do what we can to reform the police. But I believe this will keep happening because everyone has guns, cops are on edge, and and there is a ton of criminal activity they’re supposed to be confronting (especially drugs, domestic violence, gang violence). Mental health crises are another factor.
As a Briton with an American wife, who lived for a while in California before making a compromise and moving north of the border, my outsider take on the horrors of public order in your today rather abysmally dysfunctional society, is that your police forces need serious reform. There is too much space in them for those who have an institutionalised cult of violence instead of of service. There is still too much space in American society as a whole for the myth of force, not as a necessary tool but as a means to bring about justice. I feel that there is some place in which the American subconscious, on all matters, projects superhero comics -- where all issues are very simple and violence never causes true irreparable damage.
I still remember the comments of American viewers about a CBC documentary, some 10 years ago, on how British police was trained to respond to violent threat emergencies, which showed a video of policemen in riot armour surrounding a deranged man with a machete and disarming him over a length of time in which they talked to him constantly, resulting in nobody being injured. The comments of many American viewers were that it was insane to risk the safety of policemen that way, that a dangerous person with a weapon should be shot. And that is a mentality I have encountered constantly in the USA and never in Europe at large.
I think this attitude is what contributes to your problems with the police and policing. The racism discourse is a big distraction from the real problem, which is the problem of a society (whatever the race or ethnicity) that believes in the redeeming power of violence.
Mind, on all of this is grafted the old problem of the police being -- everywhere all over the world -- one of the executive branches of the "Establishment": which traditionally in the eyes of the Left (mostly the revolutionary Left, but some ideas are hard to die out even when one has become part of the establishment) is the Enemy. So, the henchmen of the Enemy.
Getting out of those ingrained attitudes, both left and right, is certainly not a small endeavour. But it is an urgent one to avoid the degradation of civic society.