My only reservation is that the official autopsy report has been available since the trial, and that the footage released at the time clearly showed Floyd saying "I can't breath" WHILE wrestling two officers in the back of the police car. (People who are short of breath cannot wrestle). This evidence was ignored by the media, but wasn't particularly hard to find, even at the time.
[Time 29:00] John comments on “denial” as potentially interfering with logic function among some who watch “The Fall of Minneapolis”. I share John’s concern. Normal people are allowed to respond illogically to evidence in the documentary film. But, not those people in “Category A”: Mayors, Governors, Elected/appointed officials, directors, news media, everyone in public health and everyone in psychology/APA.
Without authorization, I assign APA the role of rescuing its reputation from titanic-status. APA could do televised PSA and press release on:
“Logic, perception and understanding reality”
“Social bias and subsequent mis-understanding of fact.”
“They lied. He died of cardiac arrest.”
“Discussion of disagreement- that thing that humans need to do.”
Without authorization, I assign Equity mayors/governors the role of televised PSA:
1. To confess knowing about top secret Equity project: Defund Police - a year and a half or more before finally publicly announcing “Defund” on June 01, 2020.
2. To confess that random Equity email to all employees in 2019 was secretly intended to persuade employees to politically align with BLM during 2020 protests/riots.
3. To confess that 2020 Violent protests/rioting/looting/burning were largely due to activist propaganda and City-Gov/state-gov illegally performing role of “Ministry of Propaganda for BLM”
4. To confess that police violence has declined over 30 years and race-bias is much much lower than elected officials had claimed.
5. To reveal the on-going role of Equity directors with regard to police departments across the nation.
6. To reveal “who did what” In cities where a police precinct was surrendered to enraged rioter mobs. Don’t forget to include any relevant city-gov planning that may have occurred prior to George Floyd.
7. To inform public of other top-secret Equity projects that were/are hidden from public.
8. To announce termination of Equity Program by Dec 31, 2023.
Correction: drug overdose deaths did not decline from 2018-2019 in the U.S.; the absolute number of deaths increased from 2000-2017, was relatively stable from 2017-2019, and then increased dramatically in 2020.
Unlike McWhorter, I am a doctor, but I’m not a pathologist so I don’t want to common on the specific cause of death question that he raised.
However, I am an addiction doctor and a public health physician, and if it’s true that this week’s subject died of his addiction and not by being asphyxiated by a police officer, it has a number of important implications. It still reflects a widespread failure of public policy. It doesn’t exclude racism as being some part of the analysis. And it illustrates to an even greater extent how detached media narratives are from reality.
Drug overdose deaths were on the decline for a decade before 2020, but increased dramatically (~50% nationally) during that year for obvious reasons. America was never doing a great job with the addiction problem, but the lockdowns and other restrictive measures harmed the people dealing with addiction in many ways. In the most direct sense, many of them lost access to medical treatment and turned to the streets for drugs just as fentanyl was being seeded throughout the American drug supply, vastly increasing the lethality of street drugs. People also lost their jobs, their education, and were separated from families and social networks. Economic deprivation and social isolation were disastrous for everyone, but they were especially harmful to people who were already struggling. The doom-driven news and constant government and media lies likely contributed to an atmosphere of despair.
The George Floyd moment is often cited as a turning point for people who realized that when public health authorities who previously demanded that everyone stay inside and locked down suddenly approved of disorderly and usually maskless public gatherings. But how’s this for irony: what if, instead of being murdered by a racist police officer, what if George Floyd actually died *because of public health*?
A neighbor attends AA. During 2020, AA facilitators were afraid members might secretly meet inside someone’s home - then get in trouble if neighbor calls police to report “unfamiliar voices next door during Covid shutdown.”
Are you sure that drug overdose deaths were on the decline for the decade before 2020? Data from the National Institute on Drug Abuse, unless I'm misinterpreting Figure 1 from this report, suggest that drug overdose deaths have been rising steadily since 1999:
Lockdowns probably made things worse. Figure 1 shows a 51% increase in drug overdose deaths between 2019 (70.630) and 2021 (106,699).
A recent US News & World report article said that new forms of illicit opioids that are more potent than fentanyl are emerging so the problem could easily worsen:
Economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton (a Nobel laureate) began talking about growing numbers of "deaths of despair" almost 10 years ago. They weren't taken seriously at first, but nobody doubts them now. Public health officials have a role to play when it comes to reducing the number of drug overdose deaths, but people with other types of expertise need to be involved as well.
This is a good comment. I was thinking of the state I was in at the time (https://kiprc.uky.edu/sites/default/files/2022-06/KY%20Drug%20Overdose%20Deaths%20Annual%20Report%202021.pdf), but even there I was not strictly correct, as overdose dropped slightly two years before COVID but then increased slightly the year before. Kentucky was doing better than the nation as a whole at the time. Regardless, what I wrote was not correct, and I stand corrected on the statistical point. However, the available data as you’ve cited them still support the policy point I was making: overdose deaths increased dramatically relative to existing trends during the COVID era.
I personally witnessed Anne Case and Angus Deaton present at NIH several years ago, giving a compelling talk on deaths of despair. A questioner (presumably an NIH researcher) sneered at them for talking about problems that affected “white men”. At the time, I was surprised by the level of immaturity and hate in that response
That was unfortunate because our response to public health problems shouldn't change depending upon the race or gender of those who seem to be most affected. Racializing the opioid problem was shortsighted because more recent data shows that overdose death rates for blacks, especially black men, are higher than those for most demographic groups:
I don’t think George Floyd is a saint, but I did find his story really telling.
As I recall, he grew up in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Houston. He was raised with his siblings by a single mother. He got a sports scholarship but didn’t make it to graduation. Maybe he partied too much, maybe he wasn’t prepared academically, but he washed out. He returned home where he got involved with criminal activity, his large size was intimidating. He did drugs, he was in and out of jail. He fathered some kids that he didn’t raise. Eventually, he matured a bit, found religion and tried to be a positive influence in his community. He moved to MN to get away from bad influences to do better, clearly that didn’t work out so well.
So not a saint, but a kind of relatable guy of which there are many in this country. Kids who grow up without the tools to be successful and make good choices. To me, it’s just sad.
The documentary is very credible and powerful. I’m shocked that neither New York Times, nor even WSJ have noticed it. John: why don’t you write about it in your NYT column?
(1) On June 01, 2020; the secret intent of supposedly random Equity email indoctrination suddenly became obvious to city workers across the country. Intent was to teach us to align with BLM during George Floyd protests.
(2) Mayors knew about Equity Program’s “Defund”project since late 2018 but kept a secret from employees/public until June 2020.
(3) Police officers going to work in 2020 in 100 cities- not knowing that Equity directors were sneaking around looking for a police officer to throw under the bus.
(4) Mayors telling the public a lie that “police are bad and dangerous and racist.” Each mayor needs to fix that lie.
(5) Mayors secretly abolishing free speech and due process; confusing employees, parents and residents.
(6) Mayors continuing with yet more secret projects hidden from public until after completion.
(7) Mayors allowing Equity to continue making crazy and authoritarian changes to police work.
(8) Mayors locking out residents and treating city as private property of activist-Left dictatorship.
Public health institutions contribute to the police-civilian problem by:
(a) Refusing to apply our harm reduction strategy. If applied, the message to civilians would be- “To minimize harm to self, cooperate during arrest.”
(b) Refusing to acknowledge civilian behavior as relevant to arrest outcome, although every public health therapist tells patients “It takes two to dance” for non-police interaction.
(c) Refusing to acknowledge psycho-social challenges of emergency police work.
(d) Refusing to concern ourselves with societal mental health needs during time of crisis. On June 01, 2020; instead of telling the public that circumstances of death are better understood after the court trial, we were saying and typing “He was murdered.”
(e) Endorsing activist “Unnecessary Stop” concept, which obsesses over seeking reasons why police should not stop a civilian on foot or in car. This concept actually confuses civilians about arrest procedure.
I have advice for protesters. Next time, protest against the hospital, instead. Police kill 1,000 civilians per year in the planet’s 3rd largest country. We in public health kill 250,000+ each year with medical errors.
I don't need to watch the Documentary because I watched the trial as you all should have done before making proclamations. That's the problem; this is a religion and the media is the church!
Actually you do need to see documentary because it contains evidence not allowed at trial. And police body-cam footage starting before they approached Floyd.
Oh I watched it and plan to again.. mine glitched part way. Did yours? There may be more there but if you watch closing arguments you would be able to convict chauvin with misdemeanor at most due to the reasons I outlined.. plus the fact it should have been deemed a mistrial for all sorts of reasons. The jury was just too scared..
I'm sorry, you are correct. I made that sound like a fact when it's my strong opinion given this jury saw protestors and riots on their way to and from the courthouse. Logic would suggest that would impact them in many ways. Imho
I wrote a long reply yesterday that I so WISH Glenn and John would read, but in this conversation they are still missing the point, as is some of the folks here in this discussion. The jury was charged to answer one question, and one question only---could they agree that without doubt Chauvin's knee was THE cause of Floyd's death. This would entail ignoring all of the evidence about his health, the fact that he had ingested fetynal, etc. How could anyone eliminate these other factors as being a very likely reason for his death? They weren't asked to judge Chauvin's character; they weren't asked if they thought the knee was a contributing factor, it was if Chauvin's knee, without doubt, was THE thing that caused his death. YOu could hate Chauvin, but that was not the question. How anyone could say yes without a reasonable doubt those other factors had no factor in his death???? If the jury aquitted him, the city would have burned down. They knew that. In some ways, they had little choice for their own personal safety would be at risk. It's all so disgusting that NOONe, sees this? This is the media's fault. This is why I stopped watching legacy media. It's selling you a story and most people buy it without doing any independent work. I did that work, I knew the truth. I had to keep silent.
Someone help me out here. I remember a lot of people being duped about the 9/11 attack by Loose Change, and one should be skeptical of these documentaries. At the ~59 minute mark, they show a shot of the MRT applied to the shoulder blade, and then just at 1:00:18 mark, they show the knee directly on the neck (you can at least see the knee passing the border of Floyd's tank top on the right shoulder. I've heard it argued that it was poor technique, in that you don't kneel directly on the neck. Why not go over these specifics in the documentary? I'm sure there is a lot of valid shenanigans that went on and that the death could have been unrelated to Chauvin's tactic, but how am I to be sure that the drugs along with a poor technique couldn't have caused Floyd's death. Ultimately, I'm not convinced either way and am not prepared to give a definitive opinion either way, and not sure how John and Glenn can be.
Hi Kristine, I seem to recall that the idea was that he was on his stomach too long and because he was in such bad health he couldn’t fully fill his lungs (I believe it’s called compression asphyxia). The testimony as I recall it, was that he had his knee on him too long, not that it was per se on his neck. I think after he was zip tied one of the trainee officers suggested they move him to his side, per policy, and Chauvin said no. It’s too bad. If he was going to die anyways (I don’t know) he would have then died zip-tied on his side, and most likely no one would have gone to jail.
Also, I agree about the 9/11 movie comparison. I becomes incomplete narrative vs misleading narrative which just invites people to believe whatever they want, when there is a knowable objective reality.
Thank you for the reply. A fair documentary would have been a deep dive investigation into how he died I guess, instead of what was offered. Floyd was probably a major asshole... irrelevant.
I got the impression he was a pretty good guy who just made endlessly bad choices. But that too is irrelevant. Except that it gives some context on how the situation even came to be. Endlessly bad choices.
Sorry, I believe you missed my point. I always thought it was silly that he was charged with murder. But my explanation above is more about whether Chauvin was acting 100% by the book or whether he actually executed the MRT poorly which could have contributed to Floyd's death. The documentarians appeared to deceive is as I clearly see a knee on his shoulder and later a knee on his neck, and they claim it's in the same position, when it clearly is not. It could very well be that Chauvin was sloppy and accidentally contributed to his death (or he could have been maliciously using a poor technique although not with the intention to kill but just to make him feel extra discomfort; fyi, my hunch is that it wasn't malicious). However, the documentarians are clearly pushing the idea that Chauvin was doing everything correctly while showing us images that don't add up to their theory.
Most of the general public haven't seen MI - mentally ill - cases before. I have, I did defense for involuntary commitments for 10 years. Floyd was pretty obviously an MI case, on his first arrest where he showed signs and symptoms of MI, he should have been involuntarily committed to a state hospital for long enough to treat the MI issues. If the ambulance had shown up, he would have been strapped to a gurney and transported to a locked psych ward and treated there. "Sloppy and accidentally" = negligent manslaughter, and "maliciously but without the intent to kill" = reckless homicide, also known as second degree murder - neither rise to the standard of first degree murder, which require a state of mind which is knowing and intentional. If your hunch is that it wasn't malicious, that means that there is a reasonable doubt that it could have been second degree murder. The correct way to have charged Chauvin would have been murder in the second degree, with an underlying lesser included charge of negligent homicide. If there was a reasonable doubt that it was second degree murder, the jury could have been given a negligent homicide instruction. First degree murder in this case is an example of over charging - prosecutors do this, though, as an incentive in plea negotiations, i.e. "If you decide to take this to a jury trial instead of having your client plead to second degree murder, I'll amend the charge to first degree murder." The presence of a crowd outside screaming for Chauvin's blood should have been sufficient for a change of venue, from the psychological pressure on the jury, combined with direct threats to jurors, there's no way that Chauvin got a fair trial on the merits.
BTW, I'm channeling Glenn's classic devil's advocate move here. I'd wager you can find experts out there who would refute that the MRT used by Chauvin was perfect, just as I'm sure the Loose Change documentarians could have found experts claiming the buildings could easily come down by the planes and fire alone.
As an anti-war protester (peaceful, legal) for 30 years + Rodney King protest in LA (1992):
(1): In 1992, protest/riots occurred after the trial, not before.
(2): From strategy perspective- a police station is the last thing protesters would want to attack unless you are crazy. You could get arrested or shot. It would basically be suicide. Someone with credibility had to inform protesters that they would be safe during their attack at police station. I suspect that “someone” was city hall perhaps via a 3rd party.
(3): Why were protesters so angry? On 2020 June 01 Monday when I went to work; all 7,750 employees in my department of public health received a DEI email saying that Floyd was “murdered” - (before the trial had even begun.)That would make a normal person angry.
I thought this was one of your better discussions. I listened to most of it , only watching the last 10 minutes. The despair on Glenn’s face was palpable, which wasn’t apparent on the audio. Perhaps being older than either of you, it is easier for me to be cynical. Ask yourself, who did the story about Floyd’s death and the trials and convictions of the policemen benefit? Biden and the democrats by energizing the Black and youth vote? The DEI industry ? Ellison’s political ambitions? FYI , I am an equal opportunity cynic.
Remember Eric Hoffer. All movements start as a cause, morph into a business and end up as a racket.
Kudos to Glenn and John for this.
My only reservation is that the official autopsy report has been available since the trial, and that the footage released at the time clearly showed Floyd saying "I can't breath" WHILE wrestling two officers in the back of the police car. (People who are short of breath cannot wrestle). This evidence was ignored by the media, but wasn't particularly hard to find, even at the time.
[Time 29:00] John comments on “denial” as potentially interfering with logic function among some who watch “The Fall of Minneapolis”. I share John’s concern. Normal people are allowed to respond illogically to evidence in the documentary film. But, not those people in “Category A”: Mayors, Governors, Elected/appointed officials, directors, news media, everyone in public health and everyone in psychology/APA.
Without authorization, I assign APA the role of rescuing its reputation from titanic-status. APA could do televised PSA and press release on:
“Logic, perception and understanding reality”
“Social bias and subsequent mis-understanding of fact.”
“They lied. He died of cardiac arrest.”
“Discussion of disagreement- that thing that humans need to do.”
Without authorization, I assign Equity mayors/governors the role of televised PSA:
1. To confess knowing about top secret Equity project: Defund Police - a year and a half or more before finally publicly announcing “Defund” on June 01, 2020.
2. To confess that random Equity email to all employees in 2019 was secretly intended to persuade employees to politically align with BLM during 2020 protests/riots.
3. To confess that 2020 Violent protests/rioting/looting/burning were largely due to activist propaganda and City-Gov/state-gov illegally performing role of “Ministry of Propaganda for BLM”
4. To confess that police violence has declined over 30 years and race-bias is much much lower than elected officials had claimed.
5. To reveal the on-going role of Equity directors with regard to police departments across the nation.
6. To reveal “who did what” In cities where a police precinct was surrendered to enraged rioter mobs. Don’t forget to include any relevant city-gov planning that may have occurred prior to George Floyd.
7. To inform public of other top-secret Equity projects that were/are hidden from public.
8. To announce termination of Equity Program by Dec 31, 2023.
Correction: drug overdose deaths did not decline from 2018-2019 in the U.S.; the absolute number of deaths increased from 2000-2017, was relatively stable from 2017-2019, and then increased dramatically in 2020.
Unlike McWhorter, I am a doctor, but I’m not a pathologist so I don’t want to common on the specific cause of death question that he raised.
However, I am an addiction doctor and a public health physician, and if it’s true that this week’s subject died of his addiction and not by being asphyxiated by a police officer, it has a number of important implications. It still reflects a widespread failure of public policy. It doesn’t exclude racism as being some part of the analysis. And it illustrates to an even greater extent how detached media narratives are from reality.
Drug overdose deaths were on the decline for a decade before 2020, but increased dramatically (~50% nationally) during that year for obvious reasons. America was never doing a great job with the addiction problem, but the lockdowns and other restrictive measures harmed the people dealing with addiction in many ways. In the most direct sense, many of them lost access to medical treatment and turned to the streets for drugs just as fentanyl was being seeded throughout the American drug supply, vastly increasing the lethality of street drugs. People also lost their jobs, their education, and were separated from families and social networks. Economic deprivation and social isolation were disastrous for everyone, but they were especially harmful to people who were already struggling. The doom-driven news and constant government and media lies likely contributed to an atmosphere of despair.
The George Floyd moment is often cited as a turning point for people who realized that when public health authorities who previously demanded that everyone stay inside and locked down suddenly approved of disorderly and usually maskless public gatherings. But how’s this for irony: what if, instead of being murdered by a racist police officer, what if George Floyd actually died *because of public health*?
A neighbor attends AA. During 2020, AA facilitators were afraid members might secretly meet inside someone’s home - then get in trouble if neighbor calls police to report “unfamiliar voices next door during Covid shutdown.”
Are you sure that drug overdose deaths were on the decline for the decade before 2020? Data from the National Institute on Drug Abuse, unless I'm misinterpreting Figure 1 from this report, suggest that drug overdose deaths have been rising steadily since 1999:
https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
Lockdowns probably made things worse. Figure 1 shows a 51% increase in drug overdose deaths between 2019 (70.630) and 2021 (106,699).
A recent US News & World report article said that new forms of illicit opioids that are more potent than fentanyl are emerging so the problem could easily worsen:
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-09-05/new-opioids-are-joining-the-illicit-drug-supply-and-theyre-more-potent-than-fentanyl
Economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton (a Nobel laureate) began talking about growing numbers of "deaths of despair" almost 10 years ago. They weren't taken seriously at first, but nobody doubts them now. Public health officials have a role to play when it comes to reducing the number of drug overdose deaths, but people with other types of expertise need to be involved as well.
This is a good comment. I was thinking of the state I was in at the time (https://kiprc.uky.edu/sites/default/files/2022-06/KY%20Drug%20Overdose%20Deaths%20Annual%20Report%202021.pdf), but even there I was not strictly correct, as overdose dropped slightly two years before COVID but then increased slightly the year before. Kentucky was doing better than the nation as a whole at the time. Regardless, what I wrote was not correct, and I stand corrected on the statistical point. However, the available data as you’ve cited them still support the policy point I was making: overdose deaths increased dramatically relative to existing trends during the COVID era.
I personally witnessed Anne Case and Angus Deaton present at NIH several years ago, giving a compelling talk on deaths of despair. A questioner (presumably an NIH researcher) sneered at them for talking about problems that affected “white men”. At the time, I was surprised by the level of immaturity and hate in that response
Thanks for the clarification and for sharing what you observed during Case and Deaton's presentation at NIH.
As you noted, many people thought the opioid epidemic was a "white" problem. This NPR report from 2017 illustrates the point:
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/04/562137082/why-is-the-opioid-epidemic-overwhelmingly-white
That was unfortunate because our response to public health problems shouldn't change depending upon the race or gender of those who seem to be most affected. Racializing the opioid problem was shortsighted because more recent data shows that overdose death rates for blacks, especially black men, are higher than those for most demographic groups:
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/opioid-overdose-deaths-by-raceethnicity/?dataView=1¤tTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/01/19/recent-surge-in-u-s-drug-overdose-deaths-has-hit-black-men-the-hardest/
I don’t think George Floyd is a saint, but I did find his story really telling.
As I recall, he grew up in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Houston. He was raised with his siblings by a single mother. He got a sports scholarship but didn’t make it to graduation. Maybe he partied too much, maybe he wasn’t prepared academically, but he washed out. He returned home where he got involved with criminal activity, his large size was intimidating. He did drugs, he was in and out of jail. He fathered some kids that he didn’t raise. Eventually, he matured a bit, found religion and tried to be a positive influence in his community. He moved to MN to get away from bad influences to do better, clearly that didn’t work out so well.
So not a saint, but a kind of relatable guy of which there are many in this country. Kids who grow up without the tools to be successful and make good choices. To me, it’s just sad.
Regarding George Floyd the only thing needing to be invented was a false narrative to get a conviction in order to satisfy the mob.
The documentary is very credible and powerful. I’m shocked that neither New York Times, nor even WSJ have noticed it. John: why don’t you write about it in your NYT column?
One of my stronger triggers is “Being lied to”.
(1) On June 01, 2020; the secret intent of supposedly random Equity email indoctrination suddenly became obvious to city workers across the country. Intent was to teach us to align with BLM during George Floyd protests.
(2) Mayors knew about Equity Program’s “Defund”project since late 2018 but kept a secret from employees/public until June 2020.
(3) Police officers going to work in 2020 in 100 cities- not knowing that Equity directors were sneaking around looking for a police officer to throw under the bus.
(4) Mayors telling the public a lie that “police are bad and dangerous and racist.” Each mayor needs to fix that lie.
(5) Mayors secretly abolishing free speech and due process; confusing employees, parents and residents.
(6) Mayors continuing with yet more secret projects hidden from public until after completion.
(7) Mayors allowing Equity to continue making crazy and authoritarian changes to police work.
(8) Mayors locking out residents and treating city as private property of activist-Left dictatorship.
Public health institutions contribute to the police-civilian problem by:
(a) Refusing to apply our harm reduction strategy. If applied, the message to civilians would be- “To minimize harm to self, cooperate during arrest.”
(b) Refusing to acknowledge civilian behavior as relevant to arrest outcome, although every public health therapist tells patients “It takes two to dance” for non-police interaction.
(c) Refusing to acknowledge psycho-social challenges of emergency police work.
(d) Refusing to concern ourselves with societal mental health needs during time of crisis. On June 01, 2020; instead of telling the public that circumstances of death are better understood after the court trial, we were saying and typing “He was murdered.”
(e) Endorsing activist “Unnecessary Stop” concept, which obsesses over seeking reasons why police should not stop a civilian on foot or in car. This concept actually confuses civilians about arrest procedure.
I have advice for protesters. Next time, protest against the hospital, instead. Police kill 1,000 civilians per year in the planet’s 3rd largest country. We in public health kill 250,000+ each year with medical errors.
Powerful and thoughtful. Kudos, guys!
THis isn't totally new information if you watched the entire closing argument!
I don't need to watch the Documentary because I watched the trial as you all should have done before making proclamations. That's the problem; this is a religion and the media is the church!
Actually you do need to see documentary because it contains evidence not allowed at trial. And police body-cam footage starting before they approached Floyd.
Oh I watched it and plan to again.. mine glitched part way. Did yours? There may be more there but if you watch closing arguments you would be able to convict chauvin with misdemeanor at most due to the reasons I outlined.. plus the fact it should have been deemed a mistrial for all sorts of reasons. The jury was just too scared..
"The jury was just too scared."
Serious question: How are you so confident to say this so definitively? Did jury members admit to such feelings?
I'm sorry, you are correct. I made that sound like a fact when it's my strong opinion given this jury saw protestors and riots on their way to and from the courthouse. Logic would suggest that would impact them in many ways. Imho
I wrote a long reply yesterday that I so WISH Glenn and John would read, but in this conversation they are still missing the point, as is some of the folks here in this discussion. The jury was charged to answer one question, and one question only---could they agree that without doubt Chauvin's knee was THE cause of Floyd's death. This would entail ignoring all of the evidence about his health, the fact that he had ingested fetynal, etc. How could anyone eliminate these other factors as being a very likely reason for his death? They weren't asked to judge Chauvin's character; they weren't asked if they thought the knee was a contributing factor, it was if Chauvin's knee, without doubt, was THE thing that caused his death. YOu could hate Chauvin, but that was not the question. How anyone could say yes without a reasonable doubt those other factors had no factor in his death???? If the jury aquitted him, the city would have burned down. They knew that. In some ways, they had little choice for their own personal safety would be at risk. It's all so disgusting that NOONe, sees this? This is the media's fault. This is why I stopped watching legacy media. It's selling you a story and most people buy it without doing any independent work. I did that work, I knew the truth. I had to keep silent.
Someone help me out here. I remember a lot of people being duped about the 9/11 attack by Loose Change, and one should be skeptical of these documentaries. At the ~59 minute mark, they show a shot of the MRT applied to the shoulder blade, and then just at 1:00:18 mark, they show the knee directly on the neck (you can at least see the knee passing the border of Floyd's tank top on the right shoulder. I've heard it argued that it was poor technique, in that you don't kneel directly on the neck. Why not go over these specifics in the documentary? I'm sure there is a lot of valid shenanigans that went on and that the death could have been unrelated to Chauvin's tactic, but how am I to be sure that the drugs along with a poor technique couldn't have caused Floyd's death. Ultimately, I'm not convinced either way and am not prepared to give a definitive opinion either way, and not sure how John and Glenn can be.
Hi Kristine, I seem to recall that the idea was that he was on his stomach too long and because he was in such bad health he couldn’t fully fill his lungs (I believe it’s called compression asphyxia). The testimony as I recall it, was that he had his knee on him too long, not that it was per se on his neck. I think after he was zip tied one of the trainee officers suggested they move him to his side, per policy, and Chauvin said no. It’s too bad. If he was going to die anyways (I don’t know) he would have then died zip-tied on his side, and most likely no one would have gone to jail.
Also, I agree about the 9/11 movie comparison. I becomes incomplete narrative vs misleading narrative which just invites people to believe whatever they want, when there is a knowable objective reality.
Thank you for the reply. A fair documentary would have been a deep dive investigation into how he died I guess, instead of what was offered. Floyd was probably a major asshole... irrelevant.
I got the impression he was a pretty good guy who just made endlessly bad choices. But that too is irrelevant. Except that it gives some context on how the situation even came to be. Endlessly bad choices.
Which means that you have a reasonable doubt, either way, and can't find Chauvin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, given the newly revealed evidence.
Sorry, I believe you missed my point. I always thought it was silly that he was charged with murder. But my explanation above is more about whether Chauvin was acting 100% by the book or whether he actually executed the MRT poorly which could have contributed to Floyd's death. The documentarians appeared to deceive is as I clearly see a knee on his shoulder and later a knee on his neck, and they claim it's in the same position, when it clearly is not. It could very well be that Chauvin was sloppy and accidentally contributed to his death (or he could have been maliciously using a poor technique although not with the intention to kill but just to make him feel extra discomfort; fyi, my hunch is that it wasn't malicious). However, the documentarians are clearly pushing the idea that Chauvin was doing everything correctly while showing us images that don't add up to their theory.
Most of the general public haven't seen MI - mentally ill - cases before. I have, I did defense for involuntary commitments for 10 years. Floyd was pretty obviously an MI case, on his first arrest where he showed signs and symptoms of MI, he should have been involuntarily committed to a state hospital for long enough to treat the MI issues. If the ambulance had shown up, he would have been strapped to a gurney and transported to a locked psych ward and treated there. "Sloppy and accidentally" = negligent manslaughter, and "maliciously but without the intent to kill" = reckless homicide, also known as second degree murder - neither rise to the standard of first degree murder, which require a state of mind which is knowing and intentional. If your hunch is that it wasn't malicious, that means that there is a reasonable doubt that it could have been second degree murder. The correct way to have charged Chauvin would have been murder in the second degree, with an underlying lesser included charge of negligent homicide. If there was a reasonable doubt that it was second degree murder, the jury could have been given a negligent homicide instruction. First degree murder in this case is an example of over charging - prosecutors do this, though, as an incentive in plea negotiations, i.e. "If you decide to take this to a jury trial instead of having your client plead to second degree murder, I'll amend the charge to first degree murder." The presence of a crowd outside screaming for Chauvin's blood should have been sufficient for a change of venue, from the psychological pressure on the jury, combined with direct threats to jurors, there's no way that Chauvin got a fair trial on the merits.
Again, you are missing my point. I am making criticisms at the documentary.
BTW, I'm channeling Glenn's classic devil's advocate move here. I'd wager you can find experts out there who would refute that the MRT used by Chauvin was perfect, just as I'm sure the Loose Change documentarians could have found experts claiming the buildings could easily come down by the planes and fire alone.
As an anti-war protester (peaceful, legal) for 30 years + Rodney King protest in LA (1992):
(1): In 1992, protest/riots occurred after the trial, not before.
(2): From strategy perspective- a police station is the last thing protesters would want to attack unless you are crazy. You could get arrested or shot. It would basically be suicide. Someone with credibility had to inform protesters that they would be safe during their attack at police station. I suspect that “someone” was city hall perhaps via a 3rd party.
(3): Why were protesters so angry? On 2020 June 01 Monday when I went to work; all 7,750 employees in my department of public health received a DEI email saying that Floyd was “murdered” - (before the trial had even begun.)That would make a normal person angry.
Dear Glenn and John,
I thought this was one of your better discussions. I listened to most of it , only watching the last 10 minutes. The despair on Glenn’s face was palpable, which wasn’t apparent on the audio. Perhaps being older than either of you, it is easier for me to be cynical. Ask yourself, who did the story about Floyd’s death and the trials and convictions of the policemen benefit? Biden and the democrats by energizing the Black and youth vote? The DEI industry ? Ellison’s political ambitions? FYI , I am an equal opportunity cynic.
Remember Eric Hoffer. All movements start as a cause, morph into a business and end up as a racket.
At one point Glenn wonders what we can do. We can donate to Derek Chauvin's defense fund