Listen now (66 min) | This week I welcome Lara Bazelon back to the show. Lara is a lawyer, a professor of law, and the author of several books, including the excellent novel A Good Mother. Lara is also an energetic free speech advocate who has taken some principled stands that have, at times, put her at odds with other progressives.
Saying, “No gender or race or ethnicity has a monopoly on the truth” sounds controversial. To a law professor. How did we come to this unreasonable place?!
Sorry to hear about Fryer being on the receiving end of hoax harassment claim. Clearance Thomas, Bret Kavanaugh and Roland Fryer. I think I escaped such outcome only because I am gay. I worry more about that young male student at USF (The Glenn Show) who barely escaped higher education ruin because of a Good Samaritan lawyer. When I was an undergrad, I was very young and dumb about potential hoax harassment claims. Luckily, during the 80’s - it wasn’t the problem it is today.
I am male and I want all women either segregated or banned from all universities (students, faculty and staff) and from all places of work. Being male is unsafe in an era where HR has the ethics of Al Capone and denies due process so as to dishonesty pathologize the heterodox among us.
Luckily I am retired at age 55, (busier than ever). But after I left office on final day of work in Nov 2021, my manager complained that a good-Samaritan secretary dis-obeyed instruction by giving my ID card directly to the building facilities team (owner of everyone’s ID card) rather than to her as middleman. My ID card opened doors and activated corresponding time-stamp record. If I had hypothetically visited off-hours to water plants, then that could be framed as “violation” of unauthorized entry during non-work hours. Many of the most dedicated employees nationwide would hypothetically be in such “violation”due to work project urgency.
In 2019, when needing to discuss journal
article fraud with a director responsible for oversight, I went beyond my “safe space” during “Me-Too” hysteria to keep telephoning office phone until I got a response. The director was female.
The National Human Resources Association in Wisconsin needs new leadership. In the meantime- I want to abolish the criminal organization known as HR.
This all strikes me as an over reaction. Believe women, is in contrast to the history of largely ignoring and shaming women who are victims of bad behavior. The answer should be stop doing that, not believe women exclusively. Maybe a better slogan would be “take women seriously.”
Maybe I don’t understand the term “rape culture” but I’d totally argue colleges in the nineties did have a rape culture. Not because rape was encouraged per se, but heaving drinking and drugs were normal and consent was not a thing that was understood or agreed upon or indeed considered. Having sex with a fully unconscious girl was considered merely bad form, as opposed to a violation. Talking to men in previous generations (especially the late 60s and 70s), it seems that was pretty common earlier as well. A change in culture that no longer encourages or tolerates that kind of behavior is certainly important for women/girls to fully participate in school.
Glenn--are you aware that Brown University has been sued a number of times for due process violations under Title IX? Six of them with actual decisions were from accused students, and the university has lost every time. It's incredible...
Shoutout to LB, this could not have been an easy interview for her. She talked at the very end about the individual in OK (I believe it was OK) that she disagreed with politically 100%, but they were in agreement about the core value of justice, evidence and proof being necessary to sustain a problematic conviction. I feel the same way about LB's positions--don't know that I agree with her politically about anything (her team is not my team), but her basic decency about due process, truth, fact is inspiring!
Professor Loury- Congratulations on “The Bradley Prize.” My goal is to win the Bradley when I am Loury’s age. Hello Laura Bazelon. I live in SF and retired from SF DPH at age 55 in Dec 2021. Do you have an email address? “Due Process” was the phrase that police used when complaining to the feds about 2020 Defund. “Due Process” is the phrase I used when complaining about ideological mania in public health in 2020. USF should provide a Title-9 orientation to all men on campus at the beginning of each school year. The orientation should focus on instructing men to err on side of caution. And USF men should never have sex with a USF woman. The risk of institutional harm is too high. Remember the “mattress-student at Columbia”? Better to date a woman off-campus. And I don’t like the idea of heterosexual women using dating apps. I don’t think it’s safe for women. You text back and forth with date candidate- but you don’t know the person. Any Tinder guy could text in a normal manner, but still could be a weirdo.
This sort of conversation represents the best of TGS for me. Both Glenn and Lara displayed profound humility in confronting their own collaborations with their respective tribal affiliations, and isn't that where growth happens? Today, I appreciate 'Innocent until proven guilty' with fresh eyes. Thanks to both speakers.
This is tough stuff. The thing I have a hard time understanding is, even "progressives" will, on average, give birth to a boy 50% of the time. Don't they understand their own flesh and blood is vulnerable to the mockery of justice these trials are, or are they in some denial about THEIR kid ever doing anything of which these kangaroo courts could ever find them guilty?
This was an excellent conversation. I found Lara’s fear of speaking out frightening in itself. It shows how riddled with litmus tests our society has become.
I must say Lara should be praised for following her principles and taking this young man's case at risk to her career and social life. I wished more people would think long and hard about their values and principles and then stand on them.
With that said, I'm a bit dismayed after hearing how outrageously false this case was to being with and only got more outrageous as she described it that she hesitated so long to take it in the first place. To me it almost seemed like if the accused man in this case was white, she wouldn't have taken the case and he likely would have had the disciplinary action against him stand and the restraining order in place. This is not directed at Lara; does it take these injustices to happen to non-white people before self proclaimed justice warriors care about justice and civil liberties? Last I checked principles shouldn't care about your skin color, religion, sex, etc..
Again I'm very glad she finally did take it, and I hope he can sue for a big payment from the people who tried to ruin his life.
I almost disregarded the first episode when Glenn had Lara on, but it ended up being one of the most memorable episodes I have seen. Fortunately she’s not a one hit wonder, this discussion was wonderful as well!
One thing I wish Bazelon and other Title IX reform advocates (especially around due process) would address is whether universities quietly pushed for the Trump/Devos-era Title IX reforms. Of course they'll never admit it, but it must grow tiresome being sued by so many young men who have been wrongly accused of sexual assault and who then go on to win lawsuits against their universities. It's always been my suspicious that universities wanted Trump to pursue these reforms, but I might be totally wrong about this, since universities are just as often sued by alleged victims for not doing enough to help them.
Thank you for this episode, Glenn! I am familiar with Bazelon's work from having taught a college course on Title IX and campus sexual assault for several years. I use the racial disparity angle as a trojan horse to illustrate just how unjust and unfair the Title IX process is to the accused. It works a lot better than the Duke rape hoax case. Notably, my students still think the white lacrosse players are guilty "of something" even after watching an excellent documentary on the entire saga including the accuser recanting and admitting that nothing happened. But when I raise the specter of Black men being accused by white women and expelled, having their college careers ruined, it confuses their ideologue brains enough to enable them to think critically. I thank people like Lara Bazelon and reporter Emily Yoffee for bringing to light the racial disparities in Title IX allegations because without them there would be even less sympathy for the accused and the utter lack of due process provided by Title IX.
First of all GREAT conversation! I just wanted to point out that although Trump is questioning the 2020 election and those that follow him agree, I'd like to recall what Hilary Clinton and the mainstream media did to Trumps for 4 full years. Calling him illegitimate and that the election was stolen because Russia interfered. However, it has been proven Hilary's campaign paid for the document that the FBI used to go after Trump and everyone now knows it was all a campaign hit job. So, where did the election integrity question start, seems like in 2016 with all facts considered. I am not saying Trump is right but he is not the first person to say an election was stolen, so please to those who have selective memories.
Saying, “No gender or race or ethnicity has a monopoly on the truth” sounds controversial. To a law professor. How did we come to this unreasonable place?!
Sorry to hear about Fryer being on the receiving end of hoax harassment claim. Clearance Thomas, Bret Kavanaugh and Roland Fryer. I think I escaped such outcome only because I am gay. I worry more about that young male student at USF (The Glenn Show) who barely escaped higher education ruin because of a Good Samaritan lawyer. When I was an undergrad, I was very young and dumb about potential hoax harassment claims. Luckily, during the 80’s - it wasn’t the problem it is today.
I am male and I want all women either segregated or banned from all universities (students, faculty and staff) and from all places of work. Being male is unsafe in an era where HR has the ethics of Al Capone and denies due process so as to dishonesty pathologize the heterodox among us.
Luckily I am retired at age 55, (busier than ever). But after I left office on final day of work in Nov 2021, my manager complained that a good-Samaritan secretary dis-obeyed instruction by giving my ID card directly to the building facilities team (owner of everyone’s ID card) rather than to her as middleman. My ID card opened doors and activated corresponding time-stamp record. If I had hypothetically visited off-hours to water plants, then that could be framed as “violation” of unauthorized entry during non-work hours. Many of the most dedicated employees nationwide would hypothetically be in such “violation”due to work project urgency.
In 2019, when needing to discuss journal
article fraud with a director responsible for oversight, I went beyond my “safe space” during “Me-Too” hysteria to keep telephoning office phone until I got a response. The director was female.
The National Human Resources Association in Wisconsin needs new leadership. In the meantime- I want to abolish the criminal organization known as HR.
This all strikes me as an over reaction. Believe women, is in contrast to the history of largely ignoring and shaming women who are victims of bad behavior. The answer should be stop doing that, not believe women exclusively. Maybe a better slogan would be “take women seriously.”
Maybe I don’t understand the term “rape culture” but I’d totally argue colleges in the nineties did have a rape culture. Not because rape was encouraged per se, but heaving drinking and drugs were normal and consent was not a thing that was understood or agreed upon or indeed considered. Having sex with a fully unconscious girl was considered merely bad form, as opposed to a violation. Talking to men in previous generations (especially the late 60s and 70s), it seems that was pretty common earlier as well. A change in culture that no longer encourages or tolerates that kind of behavior is certainly important for women/girls to fully participate in school.
Glenn--are you aware that Brown University has been sued a number of times for due process violations under Title IX? Six of them with actual decisions were from accused students, and the university has lost every time. It's incredible...
The progressive snake is eating its own tail. All ye who are entangled with it, abandon hope! To co-op your own stupidity, it’s time to “move on.”
Oh we knew she was a progressive to start, the correction of ‘gender’ instead of sex locked the stamp on any doubt.
Wow, what an interview!
Shoutout to LB, this could not have been an easy interview for her. She talked at the very end about the individual in OK (I believe it was OK) that she disagreed with politically 100%, but they were in agreement about the core value of justice, evidence and proof being necessary to sustain a problematic conviction. I feel the same way about LB's positions--don't know that I agree with her politically about anything (her team is not my team), but her basic decency about due process, truth, fact is inspiring!
Professor Loury- Congratulations on “The Bradley Prize.” My goal is to win the Bradley when I am Loury’s age. Hello Laura Bazelon. I live in SF and retired from SF DPH at age 55 in Dec 2021. Do you have an email address? “Due Process” was the phrase that police used when complaining to the feds about 2020 Defund. “Due Process” is the phrase I used when complaining about ideological mania in public health in 2020. USF should provide a Title-9 orientation to all men on campus at the beginning of each school year. The orientation should focus on instructing men to err on side of caution. And USF men should never have sex with a USF woman. The risk of institutional harm is too high. Remember the “mattress-student at Columbia”? Better to date a woman off-campus. And I don’t like the idea of heterosexual women using dating apps. I don’t think it’s safe for women. You text back and forth with date candidate- but you don’t know the person. Any Tinder guy could text in a normal manner, but still could be a weirdo.
This sort of conversation represents the best of TGS for me. Both Glenn and Lara displayed profound humility in confronting their own collaborations with their respective tribal affiliations, and isn't that where growth happens? Today, I appreciate 'Innocent until proven guilty' with fresh eyes. Thanks to both speakers.
This is tough stuff. The thing I have a hard time understanding is, even "progressives" will, on average, give birth to a boy 50% of the time. Don't they understand their own flesh and blood is vulnerable to the mockery of justice these trials are, or are they in some denial about THEIR kid ever doing anything of which these kangaroo courts could ever find them guilty?
This was an excellent conversation. I found Lara’s fear of speaking out frightening in itself. It shows how riddled with litmus tests our society has become.
I must say Lara should be praised for following her principles and taking this young man's case at risk to her career and social life. I wished more people would think long and hard about their values and principles and then stand on them.
With that said, I'm a bit dismayed after hearing how outrageously false this case was to being with and only got more outrageous as she described it that she hesitated so long to take it in the first place. To me it almost seemed like if the accused man in this case was white, she wouldn't have taken the case and he likely would have had the disciplinary action against him stand and the restraining order in place. This is not directed at Lara; does it take these injustices to happen to non-white people before self proclaimed justice warriors care about justice and civil liberties? Last I checked principles shouldn't care about your skin color, religion, sex, etc..
Again I'm very glad she finally did take it, and I hope he can sue for a big payment from the people who tried to ruin his life.
I almost disregarded the first episode when Glenn had Lara on, but it ended up being one of the most memorable episodes I have seen. Fortunately she’s not a one hit wonder, this discussion was wonderful as well!
One thing I wish Bazelon and other Title IX reform advocates (especially around due process) would address is whether universities quietly pushed for the Trump/Devos-era Title IX reforms. Of course they'll never admit it, but it must grow tiresome being sued by so many young men who have been wrongly accused of sexual assault and who then go on to win lawsuits against their universities. It's always been my suspicious that universities wanted Trump to pursue these reforms, but I might be totally wrong about this, since universities are just as often sued by alleged victims for not doing enough to help them.
Thank you for this episode, Glenn! I am familiar with Bazelon's work from having taught a college course on Title IX and campus sexual assault for several years. I use the racial disparity angle as a trojan horse to illustrate just how unjust and unfair the Title IX process is to the accused. It works a lot better than the Duke rape hoax case. Notably, my students still think the white lacrosse players are guilty "of something" even after watching an excellent documentary on the entire saga including the accuser recanting and admitting that nothing happened. But when I raise the specter of Black men being accused by white women and expelled, having their college careers ruined, it confuses their ideologue brains enough to enable them to think critically. I thank people like Lara Bazelon and reporter Emily Yoffee for bringing to light the racial disparities in Title IX allegations because without them there would be even less sympathy for the accused and the utter lack of due process provided by Title IX.
First of all GREAT conversation! I just wanted to point out that although Trump is questioning the 2020 election and those that follow him agree, I'd like to recall what Hilary Clinton and the mainstream media did to Trumps for 4 full years. Calling him illegitimate and that the election was stolen because Russia interfered. However, it has been proven Hilary's campaign paid for the document that the FBI used to go after Trump and everyone now knows it was all a campaign hit job. So, where did the election integrity question start, seems like in 2016 with all facts considered. I am not saying Trump is right but he is not the first person to say an election was stolen, so please to those who have selective memories.