My guest this week is Michael Shellenberger, author of several books—including San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities—CBR Chair of Politics, Censorship, and Free Speech at the University of Austin, and proprietor of the Substack Public. Michael’s concerns as a journalist run the gamut from the decay of cities under progressive administrations, environmental extremism, social media’s collusion with censorious government agencies, free speech, and the dangers of totalitarianism.
I agree with Shellenberger. But, I also want to bring up AG Keith Ellison who has a passion for stopping the harm that occurs when people do their job incorrectly. My profession of public health accidentally kills 200,000 (possibly up to 400,000 according to Makarky at John Hopkins) each year via “medical errors” either in the Operating Room, with medication prescriptions or other aspect of medical care. I would be happy to wait with Ellison at SF General Hospital for the unfortunate hospital patient who fails to pull through surgery. Then Ellison and I could reveal t-shirts showing “a raised fist with a hospital bracelet” as we chant “patient lives matter”. Our colleagues across the nation could simultaneously protest at every hospital demanding that public health oppression stop. I would willingly step up to the podium to discuss abolishing public health and letting the army handle pandemics. Freedom from public health oppression and pediatric sex-change is possible.
Shellennerger makes a very good observation for those of us who are curious. The Streisand Effect is very real. I've learned quite a lot by reading things deemed misinformation or conspiracy or racist or whatever, and I suppose, on some level, I have the censors to thank for that.
[Time 35:00]; Censorship that content owner is unaware of. Michael and Glenn and Jay are big people who become censored. I am a little nobody person who is disturbed by the fact that practically everyone I know across the US responds in literally the same exact manner - refusing to discuss my sentences. Today in fact, I begged two family members to shame a 3rd into engaging in discussion; a close sibling that I grew up with. Can we little nobodies find out if people in our communication network are targeted by “censorship police” to behave in an uncooperative manner? In early 2023; Health Secretary Levine made a televised statement that was a defensive response to specific wording (pediatric-Trans) that only I use, not others. That makes me think that I could be a target.
[Time 22:00]; A hypothetical bad guy tells people to drink bleach. Shellenberger says to fight misinformation with correct information instead of censorship. My profession is public health. In a free society, public health competes for the public’s trust. We earn that trust by being transparent, allowing free speech and due process. Our ethical practices in full view of the public allow us to achieve credibility. What is considered correct information today will become misinformation tomorrow as science advances and new discoveries are made. Censorship is not public health.
The 2022 hysteria about a bunch of truck drivers who disagreed with Fauci; please raise your hand if you go to the nearest truck stop when you need medical advice. That the “truck-drivers were a threat” is the idea of a lunatic dictator.
But given the cesspool of corruption that public health has become - (as recent as last week, a PhD colleague refused to comment on my pediatric-Trans statement); all of public health officials and professionals need to be discredited as a preemptive action in order to safeguard the public’s health. Each professional or appointed health official would need to undergo a rigorous review before regaining “credibility” status. This must be done at municipal, regional, state and federal levels. Those who are more “witch-friendly” would regain credibility.
I agree with everything Shellenberger said, except I’m not a Christian and not an optimist. Two of my heroes: Glenn and Michael. Pro-civilization, pro-human, free speech: the fact that so many members of the educated elite consider these concepts problematic is why I’m no optimist.
Glenn, I would urge you to invite Renee DiResta on the show, you will get a robust defence of the Stanford Internet Observatory from one of its leaders. I use their work in my class on information and polarization, which you once visited as a guest. Here is Renee on Rogan if you want a taste:
The Twitter files folks treat academics studying and exposing disinformation strategies as if they are part of the censorship complex and I think this is gravely mistaken. Renee is no ideologue, you will see that she and the SRO have been unfairly demonized. At least hear her out.
Can't wait to listen. Shellenberger and his cohorts with Public News have been doing a tremendous job here on Substack covering a wide range of issues for several years now.
In my opinion Shellenberger's best work is "Apocalypse Never" in which he thoroughly debunks the radical environmental movement and Climate Change Alarmism.
The example with the people raising their fists and the restaurant patron refusing to join in hits home for me, because this is my old neighborhood. It’s not a cafe; it’s a restaurant, with alfresco dining typical of 18th street, which is the center of Adams Morgan. The neighborhood has two names because there was historically a white school and a black school in this area, which of course is no longer true. It is an exceptionally diverse and cosmopolitan area, and the protesters certainly don’t represent the median resident there.
But the fact that there was ever a mob that big and that deranged is disturbing.
Who deplatformed me? X, while under control of Elon btw, what did I say? “Kill all whites.” I am white. It was a fucking joke. I’m an artist and comedian so being offensive and rude is my job. X has not been the platform for that without anonymity and loopholes. It’s a coward’s platform, and cowardice is the real problem with this censorship. Simple.
I’m not saying “the WPATH” files can’t use the word castration, I’m saying I don’t take it seriously when it does. This guy saying it was “the CIA man” doesn’t convince me to do so. I’ve been deplatformed for satire, shit happens.
I copied the above link for those who aren't familiar and might be interested. Schellenberger is an unfortunate example of a creep into the paranoid mindset, despite the fact that much of what he says is correct. But he has tumbled into a one-sided hysteria that doesn't even allow him to understand the basics of the theory he's about to publish a book about, as it applies to the totalitarianism of the American Right. Lobaczewski's concept of pathocracy describes how the totalitarian fish stinks from the top, starting with the psychopathy of the political leader, which is then replicated endlessly throughout the political organism at the lower levels. The principal threat we face is indeed this political expression of psychopathy, but mainly in the person of Donald Trump, his actual criminality, and his egregious lies, lies that have become gospel for perhaps a third of the population. Recall how one honest, competent conservative after another threw in the towel because they couldn't stand the psychopathy and how the incompetent and the psychopaths gradually replaced them, exactly as described by Lobaczewski. While it is true that woke ideology is based on lies, too, there is no honest equivalency between the two political phenomena. Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law. Schellenberger, in the midst of making one valid point after another, has nevertheless lost his marbles, and it is because, like most everyone else, he can't live without a tribe. But if he thinks people like Steve Pinker are members of that tribe, he's very much mistaken.
I agree with Shellenberger. But, I also want to bring up AG Keith Ellison who has a passion for stopping the harm that occurs when people do their job incorrectly. My profession of public health accidentally kills 200,000 (possibly up to 400,000 according to Makarky at John Hopkins) each year via “medical errors” either in the Operating Room, with medication prescriptions or other aspect of medical care. I would be happy to wait with Ellison at SF General Hospital for the unfortunate hospital patient who fails to pull through surgery. Then Ellison and I could reveal t-shirts showing “a raised fist with a hospital bracelet” as we chant “patient lives matter”. Our colleagues across the nation could simultaneously protest at every hospital demanding that public health oppression stop. I would willingly step up to the podium to discuss abolishing public health and letting the army handle pandemics. Freedom from public health oppression and pediatric sex-change is possible.
"Censorship is a double-edged sword."
Shellennerger makes a very good observation for those of us who are curious. The Streisand Effect is very real. I've learned quite a lot by reading things deemed misinformation or conspiracy or racist or whatever, and I suppose, on some level, I have the censors to thank for that.
[Time 35:00]; Censorship that content owner is unaware of. Michael and Glenn and Jay are big people who become censored. I am a little nobody person who is disturbed by the fact that practically everyone I know across the US responds in literally the same exact manner - refusing to discuss my sentences. Today in fact, I begged two family members to shame a 3rd into engaging in discussion; a close sibling that I grew up with. Can we little nobodies find out if people in our communication network are targeted by “censorship police” to behave in an uncooperative manner? In early 2023; Health Secretary Levine made a televised statement that was a defensive response to specific wording (pediatric-Trans) that only I use, not others. That makes me think that I could be a target.
Two of my favorite people in conversation!
[Time 22:00]; A hypothetical bad guy tells people to drink bleach. Shellenberger says to fight misinformation with correct information instead of censorship. My profession is public health. In a free society, public health competes for the public’s trust. We earn that trust by being transparent, allowing free speech and due process. Our ethical practices in full view of the public allow us to achieve credibility. What is considered correct information today will become misinformation tomorrow as science advances and new discoveries are made. Censorship is not public health.
The 2022 hysteria about a bunch of truck drivers who disagreed with Fauci; please raise your hand if you go to the nearest truck stop when you need medical advice. That the “truck-drivers were a threat” is the idea of a lunatic dictator.
But given the cesspool of corruption that public health has become - (as recent as last week, a PhD colleague refused to comment on my pediatric-Trans statement); all of public health officials and professionals need to be discredited as a preemptive action in order to safeguard the public’s health. Each professional or appointed health official would need to undergo a rigorous review before regaining “credibility” status. This must be done at municipal, regional, state and federal levels. Those who are more “witch-friendly” would regain credibility.
I agree with everything Shellenberger said, except I’m not a Christian and not an optimist. Two of my heroes: Glenn and Michael. Pro-civilization, pro-human, free speech: the fact that so many members of the educated elite consider these concepts problematic is why I’m no optimist.
Two of my absolute favorite thinkers. Enlightening and hopeful conversation gentlemen. Thank you!
Glenn, I would urge you to invite Renee DiResta on the show, you will get a robust defence of the Stanford Internet Observatory from one of its leaders. I use their work in my class on information and polarization, which you once visited as a guest. Here is Renee on Rogan if you want a taste:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VX7FJGIYr1eKSEagOeb22?si=5djJ1auWS3y8PBQFRqaceA
The Twitter files folks treat academics studying and exposing disinformation strategies as if they are part of the censorship complex and I think this is gravely mistaken. Renee is no ideologue, you will see that she and the SRO have been unfairly demonized. At least hear her out.
Can't wait to listen. Shellenberger and his cohorts with Public News have been doing a tremendous job here on Substack covering a wide range of issues for several years now.
Good talk
In my opinion Shellenberger's best work is "Apocalypse Never" in which he thoroughly debunks the radical environmental movement and Climate Change Alarmism.
The example with the people raising their fists and the restaurant patron refusing to join in hits home for me, because this is my old neighborhood. It’s not a cafe; it’s a restaurant, with alfresco dining typical of 18th street, which is the center of Adams Morgan. The neighborhood has two names because there was historically a white school and a black school in this area, which of course is no longer true. It is an exceptionally diverse and cosmopolitan area, and the protesters certainly don’t represent the median resident there.
But the fact that there was ever a mob that big and that deranged is disturbing.
Ok Chaucer 🙄
Who deplatformed me? X, while under control of Elon btw, what did I say? “Kill all whites.” I am white. It was a fucking joke. I’m an artist and comedian so being offensive and rude is my job. X has not been the platform for that without anonymity and loopholes. It’s a coward’s platform, and cowardice is the real problem with this censorship. Simple.
I’m not saying “the WPATH” files can’t use the word castration, I’m saying I don’t take it seriously when it does. This guy saying it was “the CIA man” doesn’t convince me to do so. I’ve been deplatformed for satire, shit happens.
https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/
I copied the above link for those who aren't familiar and might be interested. Schellenberger is an unfortunate example of a creep into the paranoid mindset, despite the fact that much of what he says is correct. But he has tumbled into a one-sided hysteria that doesn't even allow him to understand the basics of the theory he's about to publish a book about, as it applies to the totalitarianism of the American Right. Lobaczewski's concept of pathocracy describes how the totalitarian fish stinks from the top, starting with the psychopathy of the political leader, which is then replicated endlessly throughout the political organism at the lower levels. The principal threat we face is indeed this political expression of psychopathy, but mainly in the person of Donald Trump, his actual criminality, and his egregious lies, lies that have become gospel for perhaps a third of the population. Recall how one honest, competent conservative after another threw in the towel because they couldn't stand the psychopathy and how the incompetent and the psychopaths gradually replaced them, exactly as described by Lobaczewski. While it is true that woke ideology is based on lies, too, there is no honest equivalency between the two political phenomena. Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law. Schellenberger, in the midst of making one valid point after another, has nevertheless lost his marbles, and it is because, like most everyone else, he can't live without a tribe. But if he thinks people like Steve Pinker are members of that tribe, he's very much mistaken.