My guest this week is Michael Shellenberger, author of several books—including San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities—CBR Chair of Politics, Censorship, and Free Speech at the University of Austin, and proprietor of the Substack Public. Michael’s concerns as a journalist run the gamut from the decay of cities under progressive administrations, environmental extremism, social media’s collusion with censorious government agencies, free speech, and the dangers of totalitarianism.
I agree with Shellenberger. But, I also want to bring up AG Keith Ellison who has a passion for stopping the harm that occurs when people do their job incorrectly. My profession of public health accidentally kills 200,000 (possibly up to 400,000 according to Makarky at John Hopkins) each year via “medical errors” either in the Operating Room, with medication prescriptions or other aspect of medical care. I would be happy to wait with Ellison at SF General Hospital for the unfortunate hospital patient who fails to pull through surgery. Then Ellison and I could reveal t-shirts showing “a raised fist with a hospital bracelet” as we chant “patient lives matter”. Our colleagues across the nation could simultaneously protest at every hospital demanding that public health oppression stop. I would willingly step up to the podium to discuss abolishing public health and letting the army handle pandemics. Freedom from public health oppression and pediatric sex-change is possible.
Shellennerger makes a very good observation for those of us who are curious. The Streisand Effect is very real. I've learned quite a lot by reading things deemed misinformation or conspiracy or racist or whatever, and I suppose, on some level, I have the censors to thank for that.
[Time 35:00]; Censorship that content owner is unaware of. Michael and Glenn and Jay are big people who become censored. I am a little nobody person who is disturbed by the fact that practically everyone I know across the US responds in literally the same exact manner - refusing to discuss my sentences. Today in fact, I begged two family members to shame a 3rd into engaging in discussion; a close sibling that I grew up with. Can we little nobodies find out if people in our communication network are targeted by “censorship police” to behave in an uncooperative manner? In early 2023; Health Secretary Levine made a televised statement that was a defensive response to specific wording (pediatric-Trans) that only I use, not others. That makes me think that I could be a target.
[Time 22:00]; A hypothetical bad guy tells people to drink bleach. Shellenberger says to fight misinformation with correct information instead of censorship. My profession is public health. In a free society, public health competes for the public’s trust. We earn that trust by being transparent, allowing free speech and due process. Our ethical practices in full view of the public allow us to achieve credibility. What is considered correct information today will become misinformation tomorrow as science advances and new discoveries are made. Censorship is not public health.
The 2022 hysteria about a bunch of truck drivers who disagreed with Fauci; please raise your hand if you go to the nearest truck stop when you need medical advice. That the “truck-drivers were a threat” is the idea of a lunatic dictator.
But given the cesspool of corruption that public health has become - (as recent as last week, a PhD colleague refused to comment on my pediatric-Trans statement); all of public health officials and professionals need to be discredited as a preemptive action in order to safeguard the public’s health. Each professional or appointed health official would need to undergo a rigorous review before regaining “credibility” status. This must be done at municipal, regional, state and federal levels. Those who are more “witch-friendly” would regain credibility.
I agree with everything Shellenberger said, except I’m not a Christian and not an optimist. Two of my heroes: Glenn and Michael. Pro-civilization, pro-human, free speech: the fact that so many members of the educated elite consider these concepts problematic is why I’m no optimist.
Glenn, I would urge you to invite Renee DiResta on the show, you will get a robust defence of the Stanford Internet Observatory from one of its leaders. I use their work in my class on information and polarization, which you once visited as a guest. Here is Renee on Rogan if you want a taste:
The Twitter files folks treat academics studying and exposing disinformation strategies as if they are part of the censorship complex and I think this is gravely mistaken. Renee is no ideologue, you will see that she and the SRO have been unfairly demonized. At least hear her out.
They aren't doing that though. They're flagging people's genuine opinions on behalf of government agencies and demanding that social media companies censor the same.
I understand that this is what a lot of people believe but it's just not true. There are very elaborate disinformation strategies that have been pursued by state and non-state actors, just take a look at the tactics and tropes paper put out by SIO for example. This is extremely valuable work that we ignore at our peril. If you don't want to hear a defense of this work that's your choice, but I do think Glenn should have Renee on.
Again, it's not a belief. Those elaborate (dis)info strategies being pursued involve our OWN government! Of which SOI is a part, along with a host of others. I wonder why it is you think, apparently, that those 'stategies' are benign while others are not so. Pls elaborate.
Oh, stuff like that is of no bother to vaunted academics like R Sethi and RDR. They live and operate in a world that knows better....for all of us! They condone a caste system where decision makers aren't ideological, just smarter. Right?
Ffs man, she's worked for the CIA, and has beat the 'Russian disinformation'' drum ad nauseum. Get her in here to be scrutinized by Schellenberger...that'd be great. What makes you think she's doing anything other than obfuscating what's going on? She IS the problem.
You seem to have made up your mind, my comment was for Glenn who is more open and interested in opposing views. I want more people studying on disinformation not less, especially ISIS which is where she started, but also state-aligned actors like the former St. Petersburg based Internet Research Agency on which she is an expert. I use SIO materials in class, they are very useful, and consistent with the work of economists like Gentzkow and Shapiro. Disinformation in the social media age is a fascinating topic of genuine academic interest, and she knows more about this than most people. Would be a good guest to have. You can choose not to listen.
It's not a matter of BELIEVING...it's been shown unequivocally that DiResta et al are at the forefront of the bureacracy that is responsible for throttling information. Censoring. What makes u think she is NOT a peddler of false narrative? Cuz she's an academic? That's precisely the issue: the illegitimatacy of all this is couched as legitimate. It's not.
This is a completely useless exchange, people can read and listen (to Taibbi, Shellenberger, DiResta, Stanford amicus at SC, etc) and decide for themselves. Waste of time engaging with you on this, I regret it. Will stop.
Can't wait to listen. Shellenberger and his cohorts with Public News have been doing a tremendous job here on Substack covering a wide range of issues for several years now.
In my opinion Shellenberger's best work is "Apocalypse Never" in which he thoroughly debunks the radical environmental movement and Climate Change Alarmism.
The example with the people raising their fists and the restaurant patron refusing to join in hits home for me, because this is my old neighborhood. It’s not a cafe; it’s a restaurant, with alfresco dining typical of 18th street, which is the center of Adams Morgan. The neighborhood has two names because there was historically a white school and a black school in this area, which of course is no longer true. It is an exceptionally diverse and cosmopolitan area, and the protesters certainly don’t represent the median resident there.
But the fact that there was ever a mob that big and that deranged is disturbing.
Who deplatformed me? X, while under control of Elon btw, what did I say? “Kill all whites.” I am white. It was a fucking joke. I’m an artist and comedian so being offensive and rude is my job. X has not been the platform for that without anonymity and loopholes. It’s a coward’s platform, and cowardice is the real problem with this censorship. Simple.
I’m not saying “the WPATH” files can’t use the word castration, I’m saying I don’t take it seriously when it does. This guy saying it was “the CIA man” doesn’t convince me to do so. I’ve been deplatformed for satire, shit happens.
I copied the above link for those who aren't familiar and might be interested. Schellenberger is an unfortunate example of a creep into the paranoid mindset, despite the fact that much of what he says is correct. But he has tumbled into a one-sided hysteria that doesn't even allow him to understand the basics of the theory he's about to publish a book about, as it applies to the totalitarianism of the American Right. Lobaczewski's concept of pathocracy describes how the totalitarian fish stinks from the top, starting with the psychopathy of the political leader, which is then replicated endlessly throughout the political organism at the lower levels. The principal threat we face is indeed this political expression of psychopathy, but mainly in the person of Donald Trump, his actual criminality, and his egregious lies, lies that have become gospel for perhaps a third of the population. Recall how one honest, competent conservative after another threw in the towel because they couldn't stand the psychopathy and how the incompetent and the psychopaths gradually replaced them, exactly as described by Lobaczewski. While it is true that woke ideology is based on lies, too, there is no honest equivalency between the two political phenomena. Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law. Schellenberger, in the midst of making one valid point after another, has nevertheless lost his marbles, and it is because, like most everyone else, he can't live without a tribe. But if he thinks people like Steve Pinker are members of that tribe, he's very much mistaken.
So, we have an essay about paranoia in American politics, and then, without any irony, we launch into a claim that "Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law". Somehow, he couldn't get it done in his first term?
And then we have the blatant censorship on the left? All in the name of stopping "Russian disinformation".
Joe McCarthy would be put to shame by the blacklisting (aka cancel culture) ability of the left.
Walk and chew gum. I'm on this forum partly because I know how insane the illiberal Left is. I don't need to be reminded of that. But the crimes and lies of Donald Trump are not a paranoid invention. They're crimes and lies. People like Liz Cheney, Steve Schmidt, John Bolton etc etc are not a bunch of paranoiacs. They're serious people who tell it like it is. But somehow you and 90% of Republicans prefer the orange Kool Aid, just like liberals need to call poor people people of color instead. Or stand with Hamas, or whatever the hell they do. Who gives a shit what they do? "It's not about who they are, it's about who we are". Remember who said that? John McCain, a true American patriot, that's the person on who's grave Trump likes to piss. How do you not understand the depravity that shows?
Remember how Kissinger talked about "serious people"? He was a fucking war criminal. Then again, there ARE serious people and then there's clowns and psychopaths. Cheney and Bolton are serious people. I disagree with them on things, but they do have principles. You and your gang don't.
Yes, we do. It's imperfect and it's being tampered with by leftists at the level of the ordinary criminal but those excesses are beginning to recede. At the level of state power, we certainly have problems but we don't yet have the type of autocracy in which the rule of law doesn't apply to the President and his cronies. I expect that to change when Trump gets elected.
Biden is an addled narcissist but not a psychopath with a lengthy record of financial and sexual crimes and an insurrection under his belt, and he won't be prosecuted for blowing up the Nordstream gas pipeline, which is the one crime he likely conspired to commit that I'm aware of, and you understand why not.
I agree with Shellenberger. But, I also want to bring up AG Keith Ellison who has a passion for stopping the harm that occurs when people do their job incorrectly. My profession of public health accidentally kills 200,000 (possibly up to 400,000 according to Makarky at John Hopkins) each year via “medical errors” either in the Operating Room, with medication prescriptions or other aspect of medical care. I would be happy to wait with Ellison at SF General Hospital for the unfortunate hospital patient who fails to pull through surgery. Then Ellison and I could reveal t-shirts showing “a raised fist with a hospital bracelet” as we chant “patient lives matter”. Our colleagues across the nation could simultaneously protest at every hospital demanding that public health oppression stop. I would willingly step up to the podium to discuss abolishing public health and letting the army handle pandemics. Freedom from public health oppression and pediatric sex-change is possible.
"Censorship is a double-edged sword."
Shellennerger makes a very good observation for those of us who are curious. The Streisand Effect is very real. I've learned quite a lot by reading things deemed misinformation or conspiracy or racist or whatever, and I suppose, on some level, I have the censors to thank for that.
[Time 35:00]; Censorship that content owner is unaware of. Michael and Glenn and Jay are big people who become censored. I am a little nobody person who is disturbed by the fact that practically everyone I know across the US responds in literally the same exact manner - refusing to discuss my sentences. Today in fact, I begged two family members to shame a 3rd into engaging in discussion; a close sibling that I grew up with. Can we little nobodies find out if people in our communication network are targeted by “censorship police” to behave in an uncooperative manner? In early 2023; Health Secretary Levine made a televised statement that was a defensive response to specific wording (pediatric-Trans) that only I use, not others. That makes me think that I could be a target.
Two of my favorite people in conversation!
[Time 22:00]; A hypothetical bad guy tells people to drink bleach. Shellenberger says to fight misinformation with correct information instead of censorship. My profession is public health. In a free society, public health competes for the public’s trust. We earn that trust by being transparent, allowing free speech and due process. Our ethical practices in full view of the public allow us to achieve credibility. What is considered correct information today will become misinformation tomorrow as science advances and new discoveries are made. Censorship is not public health.
The 2022 hysteria about a bunch of truck drivers who disagreed with Fauci; please raise your hand if you go to the nearest truck stop when you need medical advice. That the “truck-drivers were a threat” is the idea of a lunatic dictator.
But given the cesspool of corruption that public health has become - (as recent as last week, a PhD colleague refused to comment on my pediatric-Trans statement); all of public health officials and professionals need to be discredited as a preemptive action in order to safeguard the public’s health. Each professional or appointed health official would need to undergo a rigorous review before regaining “credibility” status. This must be done at municipal, regional, state and federal levels. Those who are more “witch-friendly” would regain credibility.
I agree with everything Shellenberger said, except I’m not a Christian and not an optimist. Two of my heroes: Glenn and Michael. Pro-civilization, pro-human, free speech: the fact that so many members of the educated elite consider these concepts problematic is why I’m no optimist.
Two of my absolute favorite thinkers. Enlightening and hopeful conversation gentlemen. Thank you!
Glenn, I would urge you to invite Renee DiResta on the show, you will get a robust defence of the Stanford Internet Observatory from one of its leaders. I use their work in my class on information and polarization, which you once visited as a guest. Here is Renee on Rogan if you want a taste:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VX7FJGIYr1eKSEagOeb22?si=5djJ1auWS3y8PBQFRqaceA
The Twitter files folks treat academics studying and exposing disinformation strategies as if they are part of the censorship complex and I think this is gravely mistaken. Renee is no ideologue, you will see that she and the SRO have been unfairly demonized. At least hear her out.
"studying and exposing disinformation strategies"
They aren't doing that though. They're flagging people's genuine opinions on behalf of government agencies and demanding that social media companies censor the same.
I understand that this is what a lot of people believe but it's just not true. There are very elaborate disinformation strategies that have been pursued by state and non-state actors, just take a look at the tactics and tropes paper put out by SIO for example. This is extremely valuable work that we ignore at our peril. If you don't want to hear a defense of this work that's your choice, but I do think Glenn should have Renee on.
Wow, academia is back in the camp of the IC. That's cool.
Again, it's not a belief. Those elaborate (dis)info strategies being pursued involve our OWN government! Of which SOI is a part, along with a host of others. I wonder why it is you think, apparently, that those 'stategies' are benign while others are not so. Pls elaborate.
Oh, stuff like that is of no bother to vaunted academics like R Sethi and RDR. They live and operate in a world that knows better....for all of us! They condone a caste system where decision makers aren't ideological, just smarter. Right?
What do u think RDR has been doing since March of 2019?
Trying to defend her reputation among other things, and dealing with a lot of threats and harassment.
Ffs man, she's worked for the CIA, and has beat the 'Russian disinformation'' drum ad nauseum. Get her in here to be scrutinized by Schellenberger...that'd be great. What makes you think she's doing anything other than obfuscating what's going on? She IS the problem.
You seem to have made up your mind, my comment was for Glenn who is more open and interested in opposing views. I want more people studying on disinformation not less, especially ISIS which is where she started, but also state-aligned actors like the former St. Petersburg based Internet Research Agency on which she is an expert. I use SIO materials in class, they are very useful, and consistent with the work of economists like Gentzkow and Shapiro. Disinformation in the social media age is a fascinating topic of genuine academic interest, and she knows more about this than most people. Would be a good guest to have. You can choose not to listen.
It's not a matter of BELIEVING...it's been shown unequivocally that DiResta et al are at the forefront of the bureacracy that is responsible for throttling information. Censoring. What makes u think she is NOT a peddler of false narrative? Cuz she's an academic? That's precisely the issue: the illegitimatacy of all this is couched as legitimate. It's not.
This is a completely useless exchange, people can read and listen (to Taibbi, Shellenberger, DiResta, Stanford amicus at SC, etc) and decide for themselves. Waste of time engaging with you on this, I regret it. Will stop.
Can't wait to listen. Shellenberger and his cohorts with Public News have been doing a tremendous job here on Substack covering a wide range of issues for several years now.
Good talk
In my opinion Shellenberger's best work is "Apocalypse Never" in which he thoroughly debunks the radical environmental movement and Climate Change Alarmism.
Check out the WPATH files. They are sickening.
And have garnered less attention than the Twitter files. Astounding
The example with the people raising their fists and the restaurant patron refusing to join in hits home for me, because this is my old neighborhood. It’s not a cafe; it’s a restaurant, with alfresco dining typical of 18th street, which is the center of Adams Morgan. The neighborhood has two names because there was historically a white school and a black school in this area, which of course is no longer true. It is an exceptionally diverse and cosmopolitan area, and the protesters certainly don’t represent the median resident there.
But the fact that there was ever a mob that big and that deranged is disturbing.
Ok Chaucer 🙄
Who deplatformed me? X, while under control of Elon btw, what did I say? “Kill all whites.” I am white. It was a fucking joke. I’m an artist and comedian so being offensive and rude is my job. X has not been the platform for that without anonymity and loopholes. It’s a coward’s platform, and cowardice is the real problem with this censorship. Simple.
I’m not saying “the WPATH” files can’t use the word castration, I’m saying I don’t take it seriously when it does. This guy saying it was “the CIA man” doesn’t convince me to do so. I’ve been deplatformed for satire, shit happens.
https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/
I copied the above link for those who aren't familiar and might be interested. Schellenberger is an unfortunate example of a creep into the paranoid mindset, despite the fact that much of what he says is correct. But he has tumbled into a one-sided hysteria that doesn't even allow him to understand the basics of the theory he's about to publish a book about, as it applies to the totalitarianism of the American Right. Lobaczewski's concept of pathocracy describes how the totalitarian fish stinks from the top, starting with the psychopathy of the political leader, which is then replicated endlessly throughout the political organism at the lower levels. The principal threat we face is indeed this political expression of psychopathy, but mainly in the person of Donald Trump, his actual criminality, and his egregious lies, lies that have become gospel for perhaps a third of the population. Recall how one honest, competent conservative after another threw in the towel because they couldn't stand the psychopathy and how the incompetent and the psychopaths gradually replaced them, exactly as described by Lobaczewski. While it is true that woke ideology is based on lies, too, there is no honest equivalency between the two political phenomena. Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law. Schellenberger, in the midst of making one valid point after another, has nevertheless lost his marbles, and it is because, like most everyone else, he can't live without a tribe. But if he thinks people like Steve Pinker are members of that tribe, he's very much mistaken.
So, we have an essay about paranoia in American politics, and then, without any irony, we launch into a claim that "Trump means the actual, planned end of the rule of law". Somehow, he couldn't get it done in his first term?
And then we have the blatant censorship on the left? All in the name of stopping "Russian disinformation".
Joe McCarthy would be put to shame by the blacklisting (aka cancel culture) ability of the left.
Walk and chew gum. I'm on this forum partly because I know how insane the illiberal Left is. I don't need to be reminded of that. But the crimes and lies of Donald Trump are not a paranoid invention. They're crimes and lies. People like Liz Cheney, Steve Schmidt, John Bolton etc etc are not a bunch of paranoiacs. They're serious people who tell it like it is. But somehow you and 90% of Republicans prefer the orange Kool Aid, just like liberals need to call poor people people of color instead. Or stand with Hamas, or whatever the hell they do. Who gives a shit what they do? "It's not about who they are, it's about who we are". Remember who said that? John McCain, a true American patriot, that's the person on who's grave Trump likes to piss. How do you not understand the depravity that shows?
The fact you state Liz Cheney and John Bolton as 'good guys' is peak insanity! I'm sure you LOVED H Kissinger!
Remember how Kissinger talked about "serious people"? He was a fucking war criminal. Then again, there ARE serious people and then there's clowns and psychopaths. Cheney and Bolton are serious people. I disagree with them on things, but they do have principles. You and your gang don't.
What defines 'serious ppl'? The ones responsible for getting here?
If the path you have taken has led you to here...of what good is the path?
DJT, for all his flaws, at least APPEARS as something of an alternative. I dunno...
Spare me the TDS
Do we have the rule of law now?
No, we have Law by Rule.
Yes, we do. It's imperfect and it's being tampered with by leftists at the level of the ordinary criminal but those excesses are beginning to recede. At the level of state power, we certainly have problems but we don't yet have the type of autocracy in which the rule of law doesn't apply to the President and his cronies. I expect that to change when Trump gets elected.
Do you mean the rule of law is now applied even to our current President? Do you mean the rule of law was applied to Hillary Clinton?
Biden is an addled narcissist but not a psychopath with a lengthy record of financial and sexual crimes and an insurrection under his belt, and he won't be prosecuted for blowing up the Nordstream gas pipeline, which is the one crime he likely conspired to commit that I'm aware of, and you understand why not.
Ukraine, Romania, Kazakhstan, China and Hunter? Clinton foundation? Hillary Clinton cattle futures? Epstein clients?
And talking about the law: who was indicted with a charge of "insurrection"?