My theory about cause of violence among African Americans:
Ordering of categories below is random, not by rank nor by weight.
Category 1:The “normal” causes of antisocial behavior across all groups. These causes effect violence among Americans.
Category 2: Causes that I do not know for each group and for all groups.
Category 3: The self-perception of extreme societal marginalization (I am speculating without evidence).
Another social group also has the self—perception of extreme marginalization and an unusual display of violence- radicalized islamic terrorists. I know there is a big difference in the violence behavior between the 2 groups- and the terrorism violence is much more severe. Islamic terrorists perceive that Western society is against Islam. The reason Western Society is “against Islam” is because it refuses to convert to the one “true religion” - Islam.
Once the perception is set, then one “sees” confirmation in personal experiences. One also sees confirmation in the experience of others with whom one chooses to mentally connect. Perception is a very powerful force upon everyone’s life.
At some point in the future there will be more DNA polygenic IQ scores to show some 30-80% genetic influence on IQ, AND on impulse control, and likelihood of addiction (drugs or sex or gambling or ??), and other behavior & personality traits. Life ain't fair - "social justice" doesn't create a fair world, and can't. Whether it's 40, 50, or 60% is hardly worth arguing about - we can't change the genes.
We CAN change behavior. Most Blacks aren't usually criminals; nor are most Whites.
Look at the bottom 30% of white people - why are THEY poor? Ain't racism, it's bad behavior: not finishing high school, having a baby (or two?) before and outside of marriage, not holding a job for a year (not even McDonald's ???), getting arrested for crime, being an addict. Same behavior reasons most black folk who are poor are reasons for poor white folk.
But a "good guy" like the fictional Forrest Gump can be low IQ but still get a job (they don't show that much in film), and live a decent, no crime life. Marxist Freddie deBoer wrote "The Cult of Smart" - against the idea that IQ superiority makes one a better person. Most college grads, even me, sort of think intellectual superiority is equal to moral superiority. But it's not.
I suggest and support City, State, and National "service corps" jobs, so that everybody is offered a low paying job that they can do. Our gov't should be finding ways to give people work, work they consent to do, agree to do - and then they get paid. Maybe even more than the market value of the work.
Doing work, and accomplishing something, is the way to get self-respect. No gov't welfare can "give" self-respect, one must earn it by one's own standards. This applies to Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Jews - tho the lower IQ folk are more likely to take advantage of it than the college grads. We need laws, policies, and customs that make it normal and OK to be low IQ - but NOT commit crimes.
There is no good answer to the WoD, but since our current approach has failed legalization is a reasonable alternative. I do fear that lowering drug costs in an already dysfunctional inner-city environment will expand the addiction problem, even if it better addresses the violence. Just like what cities find out when they subsidize homelessness.
Behavior is downstream from values that are best learned at home, whether it is crime, addiction, achievement, or anything else. So it has to start with reaching inner city kids as we've discussed in this thread. I agree with E.W.R. that there has to be more than vouchers to give kids hope, so a step 2 of a structured training and education program would also be needed. My only point is that vouchers are step 1.
The question is how does the black community and the rest of the electorate come to demand vouchers?
Is this an excerpt from an old conversation Glenn?
Here is how I would answer your question. Let us assume that there is a genetic contribution to violence (I am skeptical, but let us put that aside for the moment).
What that means is that crime commited by ADOS (American Descendents of Slavery) perhaps can only drop by 90% rather than 99%. Let us work on culture [relations before transactions], physical health broadly defined, mental health broadly defined, intelligence broadly defined, improved HUMINT and BIG DATA driven law enforcement, large numbers of drones and physical cameras in public spaces to lower violent crime by 90%.
Once we reduce violent crime by 90%, lets use DNA editing via KRISPR, biochemistry manufactured body tissue, medication, brain electrotherapy/meditation, psychodelic assisted meditation, brain sound therapy/music, brain computer interface and other advanced treatment modalities to work on the remaining 10%.
Regarding genetics, a small percentage of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among non subsaharan Africans. The large majority of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among subsaharan Africans.
It is hard to describe genetic traits applicable to subsaharan Africans in general. And the US ADOS population sample is extremely mixed genetically between different African lineages (DNA haplo groups), including with high non subsaharan African DNA admixture.
It is possible that some patterns/combinations of DNA alleles are associated with some physiological symptoms and conditions. We don't know a lot yet. However AI might hack it. I hope we let geneticists do their job. If they do, we can use CRISPR to edit the DNA of living organisms such as humans to improve the welfare of our species.
Crap ALL. Mistakes. Had WANTED to initially discuss ramifications of this, which are multiple. An orthogonal one is that Eugenics is now called "Genetic Engineering" and is a very well-respected career. Ya know? Designer babies with super-intelligence MAY not be as far off as one would think.
Re: Shame. It's not that I don't UNDERSTAND (italics) WHY You might feel ashamed of what minority of black people do that's destructive and to nobody's benefit. But I ask:
Can You name three people who BENEFIT from Your shame? Off top-of-head? One? Then You gotta believe, right, that there's a WEIGHT You carry around on Your shoulders to juxtapose against any supposed benefit to others. IMO (In My Opinion).
Besides, I'll be BEGGERED if You actually believe Your JUST a black man, right? But, see, I WAS gonna write a long diatribe about this new sex that's called WWPs. Women With a PENIS. And how they get into Domestic Violence shelters. And women's prison cells. One woman at domestic violence said she was uncomfortable with this WWP there. They said the law wouldn't allow them to "discriminate" against HIM. She tried to hack it for a couple days but ended up leaving. Leaving her homeless.
California passed law that WWPs get into women's prison cells. As You would expect. Solution? Get THIS: Hand out condoms and tell the women, "You know how to FIGHT, right?" CONDOMS would not be necessary if these were, in actual fact, women. State KNOWs what the situation actually IS, but denies it. Women reportedly raped and beaten up.
Me? I said *I* was ashamed to be a MAN. Was told that I wasn't at all LIKE a WWP. True. Still, raised in Matriarchal home with Mother and two Sisters during Second Wave of women's lib. So what I see is WWPs who are biological MALES casting down women's rights, and I feel vaguely responsible, no matter the logic. WOrking on that.
Point WAS to be this: Who benefits from shame that wouldn't be BETTER off with logical actions against this farce. Granted, not well-known. But there are groups of women TRYING to save their sex. Do what can.
NOW, secondary point to all this is that this likely one-a THE last posts in comments for a while. Wear myself out to point I don't get any READING done which, theoretically, is my PRIMARY goal.
Always mistakes. If You're reading ANY-a this, Professor Loury, the thing about You being a black man and me being a white man?
1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
Do you think the most violent, misogynistic, nihilistic rap music is more a reflection of a problem, than a cause of it (of course big music media money also helps drive and amplify it)? I’ve seen Public Enemy in concert. I used to memorize NWA lyrics and Too Live Crew lyrics - because some were funny, some were shocking, so many pushed the limits of (even tenuously lower-middle-class) propriety. It’s obvious plenty of kids - white, black, Latino, Asian Americans - you name it - can consume some pretty dark rap lyrics and play at relating to the culture, without being warped morally, let alone driven to shoot anyone over a beef or pimp or beat women or deal drugs. But as the line went “hip-hop is the CNN of the hood”. It’s both reflecting a culture and promoting it back to the its real ground-level participants. It’s a bad joke by now that virtually every “street” or “hood” black kid up to middle aged adult arrested for committing a violent crime (and many who end up shot or killed) was an active or “aspiring” rapper. It’s a little too neat and pat to say that since not everyone who listens to rap commits the sort of crimes described, rap has nothing to do with gang culture and the culture of nihilistic violence, abuse of women, and utterly empty materialism. Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime. Gangs and crews in NYC for example are active in all kinds of scams and rackets. And look at the recent rampant car jackings and organized smash and grabs of luxury items. No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up. No way charter schools or better vocational opportunities alone are going to stop the allure of the violently transgressive IDGAF culture that rap music reflects. Yes, sorority girls rap along to it too before applying to grad school and it’s now one of the most popular forms of music among suburban mom’s - because everyone wants to be a little bad. It’s the actually lived culture it reflects that’s the problem.
"Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime"
End of course not. But largely reduce yes.
Simply put, there is no other criminal activity that is even a fraction as profitable. Those profits are what allows gangs to grow so large, and fuels the violence as the fight over turf, not to mention pays off all the law enforcement.
"No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up."
I agree that it won't happen over night, but the drug money is the easy money, as that dries up, people will have to turn to something else. More importantly it's going to greatly reduce the influx of new recruits. Because the easy money is gone.
Hi Mathew, yes, all you suggest us reasonable and worth a try. I temperamentally tend toward caution re: transformative policy predictions, but have come around more recently on charters. They may sometimes be stultifying and seem to limit creativity, but for kids who badly need stability and rules along with support, I’ve come to think they’re necessary - or private schools that can achieve the same. As a liberal some of what I’ve gained a greater appreciation for are variables like leadership, culture, and simply a more honest appreciation of how incentives shape individual and group behavior.
Yah on schools. Agree with You and Professor McWhorter on WoD. To ME (italics) BEST approach on drugs is for government to provide at cost and, again to ME, do it through same distribution channels as alcohol. They better able to keep it outta kids hands.
Now, "SAYING" that, You gotta take into account what will happen a decade or so from now when AI and Robotics causes MASSIVE job losses. UNBELIEVABLE numbers. A large number of people will turn to drugs to destroy themselves, right? Going on NOW.
As far as rap music not being confined to black community, True. As far as it having good effects? I'd like to hear what they've been. As far as I can tell, it's led to some white kids wishing they WERE black and others feeling guilty they're NOT. TREMENDOUS guilt being taking advantage of as we speak. Just a hunch, granted. Not many data points, one Way or t'other.
Answer? Me? Put money from WoD into 1) rehabilitation and 2) PREVENTION in first place. That's just me.
I'm not necessarily arguing rap music has good effects. I don't think it has much effect except for it's value as entertainment. Same applies to move movies, TV, video games etc
As for WoD, yes For the small subset of people that have a problem with drugs or alcohol they should be treated medically instead of criminally (unless they commit an actual crime of course. Being intoxicated is no excuse )
"Because we're talking about relatively small numbers of people here. The people who are engaging in these violent criminal activities are a minority of the population. They're outliers."
Respectfully Glenn, that isn't true. One in three black men in America has a felony conviction to his name. Unfortunately criminality is a core explanation of racial disparities.
Unless the BJS has updated their statistics, that stat could probably be bullshit. The stat was originally based on this from back in 2001 (https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p01.pdf). The 2013 report (https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf) shows a 20% decrease and unless it’s gone back up in the recent years, the downward trend may have continued. If you have the more recent report post it in a reply and I’ll give it a check.
A Pew study from January 2018 found it's 33%: "In 2010, the percentage of all Americans with a felony record was 8.11 percent (including three percent who have served time in prison), but for black males the rate was 33 percent". I couldn't find a firm number in those BJS documents.
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Mesdames and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. ALL CAPS are ITALICS. I don’t read what I type before I post, so errors are expected.
Here's the thing: Percentage a distraction. It's just a FACT that gangs of sufficient size, which ARE found in the urban areas, who have easy access to GUNS will necessarily wield such an OUTSIZED proportion of POWER in a community that the EXACT numbers don't signify, right?
Me? Dunno if very small minority or not. I just move on.
I would be curious to see what the 2-parent household percentages are when we talk about different groups, like the Asian immigrants referenced. I suspect that they have a high rate of two-parent households as do all successful immigrant groups. I think it has been clear from the 1965 Moynihan Report on that having the father involved is the key, and if we talk about other programs to address social ills, it is at best an attempt to alleviate symptoms and at worst a waste of time. We need to find a proxy for the values that are instilled in children by the 2-parent household, which is why I think the only solution to inner city dysfunction is running vouchers to parochial schools run by black churches. Let's ask Bob Woodson what he would do if he had $15K-$20k/student to run a school.
See, this is where I have a problem with PhDs, in general. Doesn't common sense dictate that the fundamental unit of society is THE FAMILY. Now that's been re-configured in some bizarre ways lately, but isn't it just common-SENSE that a two-parent household will just plain obviously, in MOST cases, have more successful children? By howEVER You wanna measure success?
As M. Amy "said" changes to cultures, societies, systems occur gradually over time, right? So give Yourselves the TIME!
Substitute SOME kind-a local institutions that will PROMOTE two-parent families. TRY it. Democrats won't be in favor, because they want INSTANT RESULTS. But, think on it, if this approach bore even MINIMAL fruits then, in the space of a SINGLE generation You'll start seeing the benefits, right?
Me? I take what I think is common-sense approaches, and adjust according to available information. Adam B. Coleman has written on Free Black Thought, so I bought his book. He's come OUTTA the urban area. Can't recall EXACTLY now, but he talks about (I thin') "lost boys" who come outta single-mother families. Gangs provide a home of a kind. Respect of a kind. Agency of a (horrible) kind. The book:
Could-a stood a better editor, but pretty near flawless as to content, if You're of a religious bent. HIS solution? Number of 'em. Right up there is women seeking husbands for quality of character and ability to provide. As opposed to usual method young folks use: Who's hot and who's not.
From Professor Loury: "People can't demonstrate any reliable interventions that are having a significant effect on this behavior."
I agree with M. Dressler. Let us ask M. Woodson what's worked and what hasn't. Then slowly expand the concepts OUTWARD, right? Is there anyone who contends that he HASN"T achieved good results? Just question how well it scales. Problems? Of COURSE. Try and make adjustments. ADAPT to local conditions one-a Sir Bob's hallmarks, right?
Yah. Read "Education of Eva Moskavitz" about Success Academy. Given book a lotta self-promotion, still the RESULTS worth noting, right?
PROBLEM is, once again, DEMOCRATS. School choice, school vouchers? Why a political football? 1) TRY. 2) CHECK how works. 3) Modify accordingly. 4) Repeat.
If you think about it, when the systems that usually foment order, education, policing, etc, were the systems that were used to oppress you, then you will seek other systems to solve problems outside of the law. Survival of the strongest. Either individual or through grouping. Once those cultures are in place, they are self perpetuating. Even when those systems of oppression are removed, the distrust, as well as the simple fact that a culture has developed with memes that allow for self perpetuation, then the violence that those extra-judicial anti-cultures will continue. Add to that, most povertyin the African American communities is urban which places them in close proximity of the affluent. This helps perpetuate a level of resentment that, coupled with established familial anti-cultures (and welfare projects and section 8 didn’t help) lead to a culture of violence. Finally, when a male is raised to feel impotent and with a belief that they have no control of their life or possibilities of improvement, this cuckolding of the sense of self also leads to an increase in violence as abusive powers over others gives a sense of empowerment of self.
IMO, these are important points. All accurate AFAIK (As Far As I Know).
At same time, it fundamental human flaw to not wanna take FULL RESPONSIBILITY that's necessary to achieve the ultimate AGENCY needed to improve the self, right?
Epictetus:
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters. This pretty tough discipline to live under. That You have choice in ALL situations. But benefit to try, right?
That requires you to be aware of all the possibilities. Many are self handicapped since childhood by the distrust in their community and family. You actually see similar processes in many disadvantaged White communities. John McWhorter noticed this when reading Hillbilly Elegy.
No argument there. But lots of times these negative pathologies have multigenerational roots. De programming is hard. Especially if the person is unaware. They are basically attitude inoculated since childhood.
Yah, lack of school choice. Now ICBW (I Could Be Wrong), but I think M. Salsassin was referring to oppression that occurred years ago. Or mebbe even generations ago. Just IMO.
Per Thomas Sowell and the constrained vision: The question is not what are the root causes of crime, but what are the root causes of civility. The question is not what are the root causes of poverty, but what are the root causes of wealth. The vast majority of human beings who ever lived were uncivil and poor; this is the default state of man and needs no explanation.
Exactly right. Which is why new ideas or "solutions" offered by intellectuals on how to "solve" crime will always fail, as opposed to the practices put in place by the distilled trial-and-error wisdom of the people who came before us.
I'm not so sure about that. Not listened to rap, myself. What I've "heard" about it is that it glorifies some-a the WORST aspects of Black culture, rather than the BEST.
No, YOU haven't been involved in a shooting. Majority WOULDN"T be.
However, can You name ANY other genre of music that has a significant MORTALITY RATE?
My theory about cause of violence among African Americans:
Ordering of categories below is random, not by rank nor by weight.
Category 1:The “normal” causes of antisocial behavior across all groups. These causes effect violence among Americans.
Category 2: Causes that I do not know for each group and for all groups.
Category 3: The self-perception of extreme societal marginalization (I am speculating without evidence).
Another social group also has the self—perception of extreme marginalization and an unusual display of violence- radicalized islamic terrorists. I know there is a big difference in the violence behavior between the 2 groups- and the terrorism violence is much more severe. Islamic terrorists perceive that Western society is against Islam. The reason Western Society is “against Islam” is because it refuses to convert to the one “true religion” - Islam.
Once the perception is set, then one “sees” confirmation in personal experiences. One also sees confirmation in the experience of others with whom one chooses to mentally connect. Perception is a very powerful force upon everyone’s life.
Creating and nurturing perception is also a useful political device.
This article, by Heather MacDonald appeared today in City Journal:
https://www.city-journal.org/school-shootings-color-coded-parenting-standard-of-the-media
Seems like a great followup for Glenn to get Heather on his show to discuss.
At some point in the future there will be more DNA polygenic IQ scores to show some 30-80% genetic influence on IQ, AND on impulse control, and likelihood of addiction (drugs or sex or gambling or ??), and other behavior & personality traits. Life ain't fair - "social justice" doesn't create a fair world, and can't. Whether it's 40, 50, or 60% is hardly worth arguing about - we can't change the genes.
We CAN change behavior. Most Blacks aren't usually criminals; nor are most Whites.
Look at the bottom 30% of white people - why are THEY poor? Ain't racism, it's bad behavior: not finishing high school, having a baby (or two?) before and outside of marriage, not holding a job for a year (not even McDonald's ???), getting arrested for crime, being an addict. Same behavior reasons most black folk who are poor are reasons for poor white folk.
But a "good guy" like the fictional Forrest Gump can be low IQ but still get a job (they don't show that much in film), and live a decent, no crime life. Marxist Freddie deBoer wrote "The Cult of Smart" - against the idea that IQ superiority makes one a better person. Most college grads, even me, sort of think intellectual superiority is equal to moral superiority. But it's not.
I suggest and support City, State, and National "service corps" jobs, so that everybody is offered a low paying job that they can do. Our gov't should be finding ways to give people work, work they consent to do, agree to do - and then they get paid. Maybe even more than the market value of the work.
Doing work, and accomplishing something, is the way to get self-respect. No gov't welfare can "give" self-respect, one must earn it by one's own standards. This applies to Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Jews - tho the lower IQ folk are more likely to take advantage of it than the college grads. We need laws, policies, and customs that make it normal and OK to be low IQ - but NOT commit crimes.
There is no good answer to the WoD, but since our current approach has failed legalization is a reasonable alternative. I do fear that lowering drug costs in an already dysfunctional inner-city environment will expand the addiction problem, even if it better addresses the violence. Just like what cities find out when they subsidize homelessness.
Behavior is downstream from values that are best learned at home, whether it is crime, addiction, achievement, or anything else. So it has to start with reaching inner city kids as we've discussed in this thread. I agree with E.W.R. that there has to be more than vouchers to give kids hope, so a step 2 of a structured training and education program would also be needed. My only point is that vouchers are step 1.
The question is how does the black community and the rest of the electorate come to demand vouchers?
Is this an excerpt from an old conversation Glenn?
Here is how I would answer your question. Let us assume that there is a genetic contribution to violence (I am skeptical, but let us put that aside for the moment).
What that means is that crime commited by ADOS (American Descendents of Slavery) perhaps can only drop by 90% rather than 99%. Let us work on culture [relations before transactions], physical health broadly defined, mental health broadly defined, intelligence broadly defined, improved HUMINT and BIG DATA driven law enforcement, large numbers of drones and physical cameras in public spaces to lower violent crime by 90%.
Once we reduce violent crime by 90%, lets use DNA editing via KRISPR, biochemistry manufactured body tissue, medication, brain electrotherapy/meditation, psychodelic assisted meditation, brain sound therapy/music, brain computer interface and other advanced treatment modalities to work on the remaining 10%.
Can we all agree on this much?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Regarding genetics, a small percentage of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among non subsaharan Africans. The large majority of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among subsaharan Africans.
It is hard to describe genetic traits applicable to subsaharan Africans in general. And the US ADOS population sample is extremely mixed genetically between different African lineages (DNA haplo groups), including with high non subsaharan African DNA admixture.
It is possible that some patterns/combinations of DNA alleles are associated with some physiological symptoms and conditions. We don't know a lot yet. However AI might hack it. I hope we let geneticists do their job. If they do, we can use CRISPR to edit the DNA of living organisms such as humans to improve the welfare of our species.
Is there anything to be worried about?
Crap ALL. Mistakes. Had WANTED to initially discuss ramifications of this, which are multiple. An orthogonal one is that Eugenics is now called "Genetic Engineering" and is a very well-respected career. Ya know? Designer babies with super-intelligence MAY not be as far off as one would think.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-convinced-that-genetics-matters
This to Professor Loury, on whole 'nuther video.
Re: Shame. It's not that I don't UNDERSTAND (italics) WHY You might feel ashamed of what minority of black people do that's destructive and to nobody's benefit. But I ask:
Can You name three people who BENEFIT from Your shame? Off top-of-head? One? Then You gotta believe, right, that there's a WEIGHT You carry around on Your shoulders to juxtapose against any supposed benefit to others. IMO (In My Opinion).
Besides, I'll be BEGGERED if You actually believe Your JUST a black man, right? But, see, I WAS gonna write a long diatribe about this new sex that's called WWPs. Women With a PENIS. And how they get into Domestic Violence shelters. And women's prison cells. One woman at domestic violence said she was uncomfortable with this WWP there. They said the law wouldn't allow them to "discriminate" against HIM. She tried to hack it for a couple days but ended up leaving. Leaving her homeless.
California passed law that WWPs get into women's prison cells. As You would expect. Solution? Get THIS: Hand out condoms and tell the women, "You know how to FIGHT, right?" CONDOMS would not be necessary if these were, in actual fact, women. State KNOWs what the situation actually IS, but denies it. Women reportedly raped and beaten up.
Me? I said *I* was ashamed to be a MAN. Was told that I wasn't at all LIKE a WWP. True. Still, raised in Matriarchal home with Mother and two Sisters during Second Wave of women's lib. So what I see is WWPs who are biological MALES casting down women's rights, and I feel vaguely responsible, no matter the logic. WOrking on that.
Point WAS to be this: Who benefits from shame that wouldn't be BETTER off with logical actions against this farce. Granted, not well-known. But there are groups of women TRYING to save their sex. Do what can.
NOW, secondary point to all this is that this likely one-a THE last posts in comments for a while. Wear myself out to point I don't get any READING done which, theoretically, is my PRIMARY goal.
Always mistakes. If You're reading ANY-a this, Professor Loury, the thing about You being a black man and me being a white man?
Hot off the press from one Adam B. Coleman: https://wrongspeak.net/discovering-what-we-have-in-common-than-different/
TYTY
Excellent conversation.
Couple of points.
1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
Do you think the most violent, misogynistic, nihilistic rap music is more a reflection of a problem, than a cause of it (of course big music media money also helps drive and amplify it)? I’ve seen Public Enemy in concert. I used to memorize NWA lyrics and Too Live Crew lyrics - because some were funny, some were shocking, so many pushed the limits of (even tenuously lower-middle-class) propriety. It’s obvious plenty of kids - white, black, Latino, Asian Americans - you name it - can consume some pretty dark rap lyrics and play at relating to the culture, without being warped morally, let alone driven to shoot anyone over a beef or pimp or beat women or deal drugs. But as the line went “hip-hop is the CNN of the hood”. It’s both reflecting a culture and promoting it back to the its real ground-level participants. It’s a bad joke by now that virtually every “street” or “hood” black kid up to middle aged adult arrested for committing a violent crime (and many who end up shot or killed) was an active or “aspiring” rapper. It’s a little too neat and pat to say that since not everyone who listens to rap commits the sort of crimes described, rap has nothing to do with gang culture and the culture of nihilistic violence, abuse of women, and utterly empty materialism. Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime. Gangs and crews in NYC for example are active in all kinds of scams and rackets. And look at the recent rampant car jackings and organized smash and grabs of luxury items. No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up. No way charter schools or better vocational opportunities alone are going to stop the allure of the violently transgressive IDGAF culture that rap music reflects. Yes, sorority girls rap along to it too before applying to grad school and it’s now one of the most popular forms of music among suburban mom’s - because everyone wants to be a little bad. It’s the actually lived culture it reflects that’s the problem.
"Also: you can’t just legalize drugs (which I largely support) and end gang crime"
End of course not. But largely reduce yes.
Simply put, there is no other criminal activity that is even a fraction as profitable. Those profits are what allows gangs to grow so large, and fuels the violence as the fight over turf, not to mention pays off all the law enforcement.
"No way people used to breaking the law including violently for status and power and easy money are going to stop just because the illegal drug trade drys up."
I agree that it won't happen over night, but the drug money is the easy money, as that dries up, people will have to turn to something else. More importantly it's going to greatly reduce the influx of new recruits. Because the easy money is gone.
Hi Mathew, yes, all you suggest us reasonable and worth a try. I temperamentally tend toward caution re: transformative policy predictions, but have come around more recently on charters. They may sometimes be stultifying and seem to limit creativity, but for kids who badly need stability and rules along with support, I’ve come to think they’re necessary - or private schools that can achieve the same. As a liberal some of what I’ve gained a greater appreciation for are variables like leadership, culture, and simply a more honest appreciation of how incentives shape individual and group behavior.
Yah on schools. Agree with You and Professor McWhorter on WoD. To ME (italics) BEST approach on drugs is for government to provide at cost and, again to ME, do it through same distribution channels as alcohol. They better able to keep it outta kids hands.
Now, "SAYING" that, You gotta take into account what will happen a decade or so from now when AI and Robotics causes MASSIVE job losses. UNBELIEVABLE numbers. A large number of people will turn to drugs to destroy themselves, right? Going on NOW.
As far as rap music not being confined to black community, True. As far as it having good effects? I'd like to hear what they've been. As far as I can tell, it's led to some white kids wishing they WERE black and others feeling guilty they're NOT. TREMENDOUS guilt being taking advantage of as we speak. Just a hunch, granted. Not many data points, one Way or t'other.
Answer? Me? Put money from WoD into 1) rehabilitation and 2) PREVENTION in first place. That's just me.
I'm not necessarily arguing rap music has good effects. I don't think it has much effect except for it's value as entertainment. Same applies to move movies, TV, video games etc
As for WoD, yes For the small subset of people that have a problem with drugs or alcohol they should be treated medically instead of criminally (unless they commit an actual crime of course. Being intoxicated is no excuse )
"Because we're talking about relatively small numbers of people here. The people who are engaging in these violent criminal activities are a minority of the population. They're outliers."
Respectfully Glenn, that isn't true. One in three black men in America has a felony conviction to his name. Unfortunately criminality is a core explanation of racial disparities.
Unless the BJS has updated their statistics, that stat could probably be bullshit. The stat was originally based on this from back in 2001 (https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p01.pdf). The 2013 report (https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf) shows a 20% decrease and unless it’s gone back up in the recent years, the downward trend may have continued. If you have the more recent report post it in a reply and I’ll give it a check.
A Pew study from January 2018 found it's 33%: "In 2010, the percentage of all Americans with a felony record was 8.11 percent (including three percent who have served time in prison), but for black males the rate was 33 percent". I couldn't find a firm number in those BJS documents.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/jun/8/percentage-americans-felony-convictions-increases-especially-blacks/
Here’s the BJS for 2018, days something like 1.05k per 100k. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p18.pdf
So yeah definitely higher than every other group, but in at least pre pandemic there was something like a 28% decrease over thirty years.
I wonder if it went back up during the pandemic.
How many of those felonies are related to the failed war on drugs?
Ooops. ALWAYS mistakes:
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Mesdames and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. ALL CAPS are ITALICS. I don’t read what I type before I post, so errors are expected.
Here's the thing: Percentage a distraction. It's just a FACT that gangs of sufficient size, which ARE found in the urban areas, who have easy access to GUNS will necessarily wield such an OUTSIZED proportion of POWER in a community that the EXACT numbers don't signify, right?
Me? Dunno if very small minority or not. I just move on.
I would be curious to see what the 2-parent household percentages are when we talk about different groups, like the Asian immigrants referenced. I suspect that they have a high rate of two-parent households as do all successful immigrant groups. I think it has been clear from the 1965 Moynihan Report on that having the father involved is the key, and if we talk about other programs to address social ills, it is at best an attempt to alleviate symptoms and at worst a waste of time. We need to find a proxy for the values that are instilled in children by the 2-parent household, which is why I think the only solution to inner city dysfunction is running vouchers to parochial schools run by black churches. Let's ask Bob Woodson what he would do if he had $15K-$20k/student to run a school.
See, this is where I have a problem with PhDs, in general. Doesn't common sense dictate that the fundamental unit of society is THE FAMILY. Now that's been re-configured in some bizarre ways lately, but isn't it just common-SENSE that a two-parent household will just plain obviously, in MOST cases, have more successful children? By howEVER You wanna measure success?
As M. Amy "said" changes to cultures, societies, systems occur gradually over time, right? So give Yourselves the TIME!
Substitute SOME kind-a local institutions that will PROMOTE two-parent families. TRY it. Democrats won't be in favor, because they want INSTANT RESULTS. But, think on it, if this approach bore even MINIMAL fruits then, in the space of a SINGLE generation You'll start seeing the benefits, right?
Me? I take what I think is common-sense approaches, and adjust according to available information. Adam B. Coleman has written on Free Black Thought, so I bought his book. He's come OUTTA the urban area. Can't recall EXACTLY now, but he talks about (I thin') "lost boys" who come outta single-mother families. Gangs provide a home of a kind. Respect of a kind. Agency of a (horrible) kind. The book:
https://wrongspeak.net/product/black-victim-to-black-victor-book-by-adam-b-coleman/
Could-a stood a better editor, but pretty near flawless as to content, if You're of a religious bent. HIS solution? Number of 'em. Right up there is women seeking husbands for quality of character and ability to provide. As opposed to usual method young folks use: Who's hot and who's not.
From Professor Loury: "People can't demonstrate any reliable interventions that are having a significant effect on this behavior."
I agree with M. Dressler. Let us ask M. Woodson what's worked and what hasn't. Then slowly expand the concepts OUTWARD, right? Is there anyone who contends that he HASN"T achieved good results? Just question how well it scales. Problems? Of COURSE. Try and make adjustments. ADAPT to local conditions one-a Sir Bob's hallmarks, right?
"only solution to inner city dysfunction is running vouchers to parochial schools run by black churches"
I think some of the charters are producing outstanding results as well. I believe comparable to elite majority white public schools
Yah. Read "Education of Eva Moskavitz" about Success Academy. Given book a lotta self-promotion, still the RESULTS worth noting, right?
PROBLEM is, once again, DEMOCRATS. School choice, school vouchers? Why a political football? 1) TRY. 2) CHECK how works. 3) Modify accordingly. 4) Repeat.
I will check it out
Thank you Glenn
If you think about it, when the systems that usually foment order, education, policing, etc, were the systems that were used to oppress you, then you will seek other systems to solve problems outside of the law. Survival of the strongest. Either individual or through grouping. Once those cultures are in place, they are self perpetuating. Even when those systems of oppression are removed, the distrust, as well as the simple fact that a culture has developed with memes that allow for self perpetuation, then the violence that those extra-judicial anti-cultures will continue. Add to that, most povertyin the African American communities is urban which places them in close proximity of the affluent. This helps perpetuate a level of resentment that, coupled with established familial anti-cultures (and welfare projects and section 8 didn’t help) lead to a culture of violence. Finally, when a male is raised to feel impotent and with a belief that they have no control of their life or possibilities of improvement, this cuckolding of the sense of self also leads to an increase in violence as abusive powers over others gives a sense of empowerment of self.
IMO, these are important points. All accurate AFAIK (As Far As I Know).
At same time, it fundamental human flaw to not wanna take FULL RESPONSIBILITY that's necessary to achieve the ultimate AGENCY needed to improve the self, right?
Epictetus:
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters. This pretty tough discipline to live under. That You have choice in ALL situations. But benefit to try, right?
That requires you to be aware of all the possibilities. Many are self handicapped since childhood by the distrust in their community and family. You actually see similar processes in many disadvantaged White communities. John McWhorter noticed this when reading Hillbilly Elegy.
Ah. I BOUGHT the book and have MEANT to get to it. NOW looking like M. Sowell first.
But, yeah, thinking on the "deaths of despair," largely in white communities, AFAIK, makes me worry about legal drugs available real cheap.
But as to handicaps about TAKING CHARGE of having full AGENCY? AFAIK, that lifelong for most EVERYBODY, to SOME extent or another, right?
How is the education system being used to oppress them? Except for the lack of school choice I suppose.
I am talking about Jim Crow.
Fair enough. But that was 60 years ago. Time to move on
But Jim Crow was only 3 generations ago. 60 years may sound like a long time but culture evolves generation to generation.
No argument there. But lots of times these negative pathologies have multigenerational roots. De programming is hard. Especially if the person is unaware. They are basically attitude inoculated since childhood.
Yah, lack of school choice. Now ICBW (I Could Be Wrong), but I think M. Salsassin was referring to oppression that occurred years ago. Or mebbe even generations ago. Just IMO.
Per Thomas Sowell and the constrained vision: The question is not what are the root causes of crime, but what are the root causes of civility. The question is not what are the root causes of poverty, but what are the root causes of wealth. The vast majority of human beings who ever lived were uncivil and poor; this is the default state of man and needs no explanation.
TY (thank You) for prompt. Bought "A Conflict of Visions." MAY (italics) actually get a chance to read the darn thing.
Exactly right. Which is why new ideas or "solutions" offered by intellectuals on how to "solve" crime will always fail, as opposed to the practices put in place by the distilled trial-and-error wisdom of the people who came before us.
You're both EXACTLY 110% right! TYTY.
It's not the rap. I love gangster rap. And many other people do as well. Yet I've never been involved in a shooting
I'm not so sure about that. Not listened to rap, myself. What I've "heard" about it is that it glorifies some-a the WORST aspects of Black culture, rather than the BEST.
No, YOU haven't been involved in a shooting. Majority WOULDN"T be.
However, can You name ANY other genre of music that has a significant MORTALITY RATE?
Thats the point. People are always trying to blame music ,or video games, or movies etc.
That's not the problem
Big Band music fans?