My theory about cause of violence among African Americans:
Ordering of categories below is random, not by rank nor by weight.
Category 1:The “normal” causes of antisocial behavior across all groups. These causes effect violence among Americans.
Category 2: Causes that I do not know for each group and for all groups.
Category 3: The self-perception of extreme societal marginalization (I am speculating without evidence).
Another social group also has the self—perception of extreme marginalization and an unusual display of violence- radicalized islamic terrorists. I know there is a big difference in the violence behavior between the 2 groups- and the terrorism violence is much more severe. Islamic terrorists perceive that Western society is against Islam. The reason Western Society is “against Islam” is because it refuses to convert to the one “true religion” - Islam.
Once the perception is set, then one “sees” confirmation in personal experiences. One also sees confirmation in the experience of others with whom one chooses to mentally connect. Perception is a very powerful force upon everyone’s life.
At some point in the future there will be more DNA polygenic IQ scores to show some 30-80% genetic influence on IQ, AND on impulse control, and likelihood of addiction (drugs or sex or gambling or ??), and other behavior & personality traits. Life ain't fair - "social justice" doesn't create a fair world, and can't. Whether it's 40, 50, or 60% is hardly worth arguing about - we can't change the genes.
We CAN change behavior. Most Blacks aren't usually criminals; nor are most Whites.
Look at the bottom 30% of white people - why are THEY poor? Ain't racism, it's bad behavior: not finishing high school, having a baby (or two?) before and outside of marriage, not holding a job for a year (not even McDonald's ???), getting arrested for crime, being an addict. Same behavior reasons most black folk who are poor are reasons for poor white folk.
But a "good guy" like the fictional Forrest Gump can be low IQ but still get a job (they don't show that much in film), and live a decent, no crime life. Marxist Freddie deBoer wrote "The Cult of Smart" - against the idea that IQ superiority makes one a better person. Most college grads, even me, sort of think intellectual superiority is equal to moral superiority. But it's not.
I suggest and support City, State, and National "service corps" jobs, so that everybody is offered a low paying job that they can do. Our gov't should be finding ways to give people work, work they consent to do, agree to do - and then they get paid. Maybe even more than the market value of the work.
Doing work, and accomplishing something, is the way to get self-respect. No gov't welfare can "give" self-respect, one must earn it by one's own standards. This applies to Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Jews - tho the lower IQ folk are more likely to take advantage of it than the college grads. We need laws, policies, and customs that make it normal and OK to be low IQ - but NOT commit crimes.
There is no good answer to the WoD, but since our current approach has failed legalization is a reasonable alternative. I do fear that lowering drug costs in an already dysfunctional inner-city environment will expand the addiction problem, even if it better addresses the violence. Just like what cities find out when they subsidize homelessness.
Behavior is downstream from values that are best learned at home, whether it is crime, addiction, achievement, or anything else. So it has to start with reaching inner city kids as we've discussed in this thread. I agree with E.W.R. that there has to be more than vouchers to give kids hope, so a step 2 of a structured training and education program would also be needed. My only point is that vouchers are step 1.
The question is how does the black community and the rest of the electorate come to demand vouchers?
Is this an excerpt from an old conversation Glenn?
Here is how I would answer your question. Let us assume that there is a genetic contribution to violence (I am skeptical, but let us put that aside for the moment).
What that means is that crime commited by ADOS (American Descendents of Slavery) perhaps can only drop by 90% rather than 99%. Let us work on culture [relations before transactions], physical health broadly defined, mental health broadly defined, intelligence broadly defined, improved HUMINT and BIG DATA driven law enforcement, large numbers of drones and physical cameras in public spaces to lower violent crime by 90%.
Once we reduce violent crime by 90%, lets use DNA editing via KRISPR, biochemistry manufactured body tissue, medication, brain electrotherapy/meditation, psychodelic assisted meditation, brain sound therapy/music, brain computer interface and other advanced treatment modalities to work on the remaining 10%.
Regarding genetics, a small percentage of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among non subsaharan Africans. The large majority of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among subsaharan Africans.
It is hard to describe genetic traits applicable to subsaharan Africans in general. And the US ADOS population sample is extremely mixed genetically between different African lineages (DNA haplo groups), including with high non subsaharan African DNA admixture.
It is possible that some patterns/combinations of DNA alleles are associated with some physiological symptoms and conditions. We don't know a lot yet. However AI might hack it. I hope we let geneticists do their job. If they do, we can use CRISPR to edit the DNA of living organisms such as humans to improve the welfare of our species.
Crap ALL. Mistakes. Had WANTED to initially discuss ramifications of this, which are multiple. An orthogonal one is that Eugenics is now called "Genetic Engineering" and is a very well-respected career. Ya know? Designer babies with super-intelligence MAY not be as far off as one would think.
Re: Shame. It's not that I don't UNDERSTAND (italics) WHY You might feel ashamed of what minority of black people do that's destructive and to nobody's benefit. But I ask:
Can You name three people who BENEFIT from Your shame? Off top-of-head? One? Then You gotta believe, right, that there's a WEIGHT You carry around on Your shoulders to juxtapose against any supposed benefit to others. IMO (In My Opinion).
Besides, I'll be BEGGERED if You actually believe Your JUST a black man, right? But, see, I WAS gonna write a long diatribe about this new sex that's called WWPs. Women With a PENIS. And how they get into Domestic Violence shelters. And women's prison cells. One woman at domestic violence said she was uncomfortable with this WWP there. They said the law wouldn't allow them to "discriminate" against HIM. She tried to hack it for a couple days but ended up leaving. Leaving her homeless.
California passed law that WWPs get into women's prison cells. As You would expect. Solution? Get THIS: Hand out condoms and tell the women, "You know how to FIGHT, right?" CONDOMS would not be necessary if these were, in actual fact, women. State KNOWs what the situation actually IS, but denies it. Women reportedly raped and beaten up.
Me? I said *I* was ashamed to be a MAN. Was told that I wasn't at all LIKE a WWP. True. Still, raised in Matriarchal home with Mother and two Sisters during Second Wave of women's lib. So what I see is WWPs who are biological MALES casting down women's rights, and I feel vaguely responsible, no matter the logic. WOrking on that.
Point WAS to be this: Who benefits from shame that wouldn't be BETTER off with logical actions against this farce. Granted, not well-known. But there are groups of women TRYING to save their sex. Do what can.
NOW, secondary point to all this is that this likely one-a THE last posts in comments for a while. Wear myself out to point I don't get any READING done which, theoretically, is my PRIMARY goal.
Always mistakes. If You're reading ANY-a this, Professor Loury, the thing about You being a black man and me being a white man?
1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
"Because we're talking about relatively small numbers of people here. The people who are engaging in these violent criminal activities are a minority of the population. They're outliers."
Respectfully Glenn, that isn't true. One in three black men in America has a felony conviction to his name. Unfortunately criminality is a core explanation of racial disparities.
I would be curious to see what the 2-parent household percentages are when we talk about different groups, like the Asian immigrants referenced. I suspect that they have a high rate of two-parent households as do all successful immigrant groups. I think it has been clear from the 1965 Moynihan Report on that having the father involved is the key, and if we talk about other programs to address social ills, it is at best an attempt to alleviate symptoms and at worst a waste of time. We need to find a proxy for the values that are instilled in children by the 2-parent household, which is why I think the only solution to inner city dysfunction is running vouchers to parochial schools run by black churches. Let's ask Bob Woodson what he would do if he had $15K-$20k/student to run a school.
If you think about it, when the systems that usually foment order, education, policing, etc, were the systems that were used to oppress you, then you will seek other systems to solve problems outside of the law. Survival of the strongest. Either individual or through grouping. Once those cultures are in place, they are self perpetuating. Even when those systems of oppression are removed, the distrust, as well as the simple fact that a culture has developed with memes that allow for self perpetuation, then the violence that those extra-judicial anti-cultures will continue. Add to that, most povertyin the African American communities is urban which places them in close proximity of the affluent. This helps perpetuate a level of resentment that, coupled with established familial anti-cultures (and welfare projects and section 8 didn’t help) lead to a culture of violence. Finally, when a male is raised to feel impotent and with a belief that they have no control of their life or possibilities of improvement, this cuckolding of the sense of self also leads to an increase in violence as abusive powers over others gives a sense of empowerment of self.
Per Thomas Sowell and the constrained vision: The question is not what are the root causes of crime, but what are the root causes of civility. The question is not what are the root causes of poverty, but what are the root causes of wealth. The vast majority of human beings who ever lived were uncivil and poor; this is the default state of man and needs no explanation.
My theory about cause of violence among African Americans:
Ordering of categories below is random, not by rank nor by weight.
Category 1:The “normal” causes of antisocial behavior across all groups. These causes effect violence among Americans.
Category 2: Causes that I do not know for each group and for all groups.
Category 3: The self-perception of extreme societal marginalization (I am speculating without evidence).
Another social group also has the self—perception of extreme marginalization and an unusual display of violence- radicalized islamic terrorists. I know there is a big difference in the violence behavior between the 2 groups- and the terrorism violence is much more severe. Islamic terrorists perceive that Western society is against Islam. The reason Western Society is “against Islam” is because it refuses to convert to the one “true religion” - Islam.
Once the perception is set, then one “sees” confirmation in personal experiences. One also sees confirmation in the experience of others with whom one chooses to mentally connect. Perception is a very powerful force upon everyone’s life.
This article, by Heather MacDonald appeared today in City Journal:
https://www.city-journal.org/school-shootings-color-coded-parenting-standard-of-the-media
Seems like a great followup for Glenn to get Heather on his show to discuss.
At some point in the future there will be more DNA polygenic IQ scores to show some 30-80% genetic influence on IQ, AND on impulse control, and likelihood of addiction (drugs or sex or gambling or ??), and other behavior & personality traits. Life ain't fair - "social justice" doesn't create a fair world, and can't. Whether it's 40, 50, or 60% is hardly worth arguing about - we can't change the genes.
We CAN change behavior. Most Blacks aren't usually criminals; nor are most Whites.
Look at the bottom 30% of white people - why are THEY poor? Ain't racism, it's bad behavior: not finishing high school, having a baby (or two?) before and outside of marriage, not holding a job for a year (not even McDonald's ???), getting arrested for crime, being an addict. Same behavior reasons most black folk who are poor are reasons for poor white folk.
But a "good guy" like the fictional Forrest Gump can be low IQ but still get a job (they don't show that much in film), and live a decent, no crime life. Marxist Freddie deBoer wrote "The Cult of Smart" - against the idea that IQ superiority makes one a better person. Most college grads, even me, sort of think intellectual superiority is equal to moral superiority. But it's not.
I suggest and support City, State, and National "service corps" jobs, so that everybody is offered a low paying job that they can do. Our gov't should be finding ways to give people work, work they consent to do, agree to do - and then they get paid. Maybe even more than the market value of the work.
Doing work, and accomplishing something, is the way to get self-respect. No gov't welfare can "give" self-respect, one must earn it by one's own standards. This applies to Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Jews - tho the lower IQ folk are more likely to take advantage of it than the college grads. We need laws, policies, and customs that make it normal and OK to be low IQ - but NOT commit crimes.
There is no good answer to the WoD, but since our current approach has failed legalization is a reasonable alternative. I do fear that lowering drug costs in an already dysfunctional inner-city environment will expand the addiction problem, even if it better addresses the violence. Just like what cities find out when they subsidize homelessness.
Behavior is downstream from values that are best learned at home, whether it is crime, addiction, achievement, or anything else. So it has to start with reaching inner city kids as we've discussed in this thread. I agree with E.W.R. that there has to be more than vouchers to give kids hope, so a step 2 of a structured training and education program would also be needed. My only point is that vouchers are step 1.
The question is how does the black community and the rest of the electorate come to demand vouchers?
Is this an excerpt from an old conversation Glenn?
Here is how I would answer your question. Let us assume that there is a genetic contribution to violence (I am skeptical, but let us put that aside for the moment).
What that means is that crime commited by ADOS (American Descendents of Slavery) perhaps can only drop by 90% rather than 99%. Let us work on culture [relations before transactions], physical health broadly defined, mental health broadly defined, intelligence broadly defined, improved HUMINT and BIG DATA driven law enforcement, large numbers of drones and physical cameras in public spaces to lower violent crime by 90%.
Once we reduce violent crime by 90%, lets use DNA editing via KRISPR, biochemistry manufactured body tissue, medication, brain electrotherapy/meditation, psychodelic assisted meditation, brain sound therapy/music, brain computer interface and other advanced treatment modalities to work on the remaining 10%.
Can we all agree on this much?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Regarding genetics, a small percentage of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among non subsaharan Africans. The large majority of the world's hominid genetic diversity is among subsaharan Africans.
It is hard to describe genetic traits applicable to subsaharan Africans in general. And the US ADOS population sample is extremely mixed genetically between different African lineages (DNA haplo groups), including with high non subsaharan African DNA admixture.
It is possible that some patterns/combinations of DNA alleles are associated with some physiological symptoms and conditions. We don't know a lot yet. However AI might hack it. I hope we let geneticists do their job. If they do, we can use CRISPR to edit the DNA of living organisms such as humans to improve the welfare of our species.
Is there anything to be worried about?
Crap ALL. Mistakes. Had WANTED to initially discuss ramifications of this, which are multiple. An orthogonal one is that Eugenics is now called "Genetic Engineering" and is a very well-respected career. Ya know? Designer babies with super-intelligence MAY not be as far off as one would think.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-convinced-that-genetics-matters
This to Professor Loury, on whole 'nuther video.
Re: Shame. It's not that I don't UNDERSTAND (italics) WHY You might feel ashamed of what minority of black people do that's destructive and to nobody's benefit. But I ask:
Can You name three people who BENEFIT from Your shame? Off top-of-head? One? Then You gotta believe, right, that there's a WEIGHT You carry around on Your shoulders to juxtapose against any supposed benefit to others. IMO (In My Opinion).
Besides, I'll be BEGGERED if You actually believe Your JUST a black man, right? But, see, I WAS gonna write a long diatribe about this new sex that's called WWPs. Women With a PENIS. And how they get into Domestic Violence shelters. And women's prison cells. One woman at domestic violence said she was uncomfortable with this WWP there. They said the law wouldn't allow them to "discriminate" against HIM. She tried to hack it for a couple days but ended up leaving. Leaving her homeless.
California passed law that WWPs get into women's prison cells. As You would expect. Solution? Get THIS: Hand out condoms and tell the women, "You know how to FIGHT, right?" CONDOMS would not be necessary if these were, in actual fact, women. State KNOWs what the situation actually IS, but denies it. Women reportedly raped and beaten up.
Me? I said *I* was ashamed to be a MAN. Was told that I wasn't at all LIKE a WWP. True. Still, raised in Matriarchal home with Mother and two Sisters during Second Wave of women's lib. So what I see is WWPs who are biological MALES casting down women's rights, and I feel vaguely responsible, no matter the logic. WOrking on that.
Point WAS to be this: Who benefits from shame that wouldn't be BETTER off with logical actions against this farce. Granted, not well-known. But there are groups of women TRYING to save their sex. Do what can.
NOW, secondary point to all this is that this likely one-a THE last posts in comments for a while. Wear myself out to point I don't get any READING done which, theoretically, is my PRIMARY goal.
Always mistakes. If You're reading ANY-a this, Professor Loury, the thing about You being a black man and me being a white man?
Hot off the press from one Adam B. Coleman: https://wrongspeak.net/discovering-what-we-have-in-common-than-different/
TYTY
Excellent conversation.
Couple of points.
1. Regarding rap music. And it's alleged effects. The enjoyment of rap music, or gangsta rap is certainly by no means confined to the black community. I believe rap music is the most popular form of music in America right now. Just like attempts to blame violence on video games, movies, etc. I'm not buying it.
2. Regarding gang violence and drugs. I think the way you deal with this is through legalization. During alcohol prohibition there was also a bunch of violence. That's one of the reasons we ended alcohol prohibition. But we never seem to learn our lesson.
Moreover, you see similar (or worse) violence problems with the cartels from Latin America. In fact, I would argue our prohibition policies besides causing large amounts of violence in our inner cities are also destabilizing our southern neighbors. The amount of corruption and violence caused by prohibition is madness
We ended alcohol prohibition, and you don't see Coors and Miller sales reps shooting each other in the streets. I would expect something similar to follow from a thoughtful legalization regime.
Besides ending the failed WoD, the other thing I think you need is to massively expand the good charter schools, or even better go with full school choice.
Trapping these kids is failing public schools is a national failing IMHO.
"Because we're talking about relatively small numbers of people here. The people who are engaging in these violent criminal activities are a minority of the population. They're outliers."
Respectfully Glenn, that isn't true. One in three black men in America has a felony conviction to his name. Unfortunately criminality is a core explanation of racial disparities.
I would be curious to see what the 2-parent household percentages are when we talk about different groups, like the Asian immigrants referenced. I suspect that they have a high rate of two-parent households as do all successful immigrant groups. I think it has been clear from the 1965 Moynihan Report on that having the father involved is the key, and if we talk about other programs to address social ills, it is at best an attempt to alleviate symptoms and at worst a waste of time. We need to find a proxy for the values that are instilled in children by the 2-parent household, which is why I think the only solution to inner city dysfunction is running vouchers to parochial schools run by black churches. Let's ask Bob Woodson what he would do if he had $15K-$20k/student to run a school.
Thank you Glenn
If you think about it, when the systems that usually foment order, education, policing, etc, were the systems that were used to oppress you, then you will seek other systems to solve problems outside of the law. Survival of the strongest. Either individual or through grouping. Once those cultures are in place, they are self perpetuating. Even when those systems of oppression are removed, the distrust, as well as the simple fact that a culture has developed with memes that allow for self perpetuation, then the violence that those extra-judicial anti-cultures will continue. Add to that, most povertyin the African American communities is urban which places them in close proximity of the affluent. This helps perpetuate a level of resentment that, coupled with established familial anti-cultures (and welfare projects and section 8 didn’t help) lead to a culture of violence. Finally, when a male is raised to feel impotent and with a belief that they have no control of their life or possibilities of improvement, this cuckolding of the sense of self also leads to an increase in violence as abusive powers over others gives a sense of empowerment of self.
Per Thomas Sowell and the constrained vision: The question is not what are the root causes of crime, but what are the root causes of civility. The question is not what are the root causes of poverty, but what are the root causes of wealth. The vast majority of human beings who ever lived were uncivil and poor; this is the default state of man and needs no explanation.