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The important thing to remember about AI or any other technology is that human behavior is forced to adapt to facilitate said technology - technology never adapts to serve humanity. We serve the machine; the machine does not serve us.

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Great reply by "Gregory Green", who is likely NOT that Gregory Green who murdered his wife and two kids in Michigan.

But I don't quite believe him - as also many others don't believe him. Maybe he thinks he knows and is wrong, or somewhat under- or mis-informed.

In the Sam Harris podcast, Sam claims to believe Glenn. Altho Glenn pushes back "you should think for yourself", Sam is more correct - most folk choose WHO to believe more than WHAT to believe. This is another example.

Still, GG might also be more correct than the others. I'm moving my belief from thinking I know about the bad CCP social credit to being less sure about the details, what's covered, and what people on the street think.

I'll now be looking, more, for first hand experiences by folks who have lived there and gotten bank loans, or not; have travelled, or not. But not yet looking on DDG nor YouTube.

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Klon Kitchen's ( bio here https://www.aei.org/profile/klon-kitchen/ )

recent article at the dispatch seems to definitely agree that there is in fact such a thing as a China social credit score.

"Beijing’s social credit score regime exemplifies the nation’s cultural shaping operations. Here, the CCP leverages wide-scale surveillance and data collection to check citizen’s economic, social, political, and online habits to incentivize “good” behavior and constrain “bad” behavior. If you advance the party’s priorities, your social score goes up—giving you greater freedom of movement and increased access to benefits like public services and travel. If you engage in unapproved behaviors, however, you may not be allowed to apply for certain jobs or to leave your hometown. "

https://current.thedispatch.com/p/china-doesnt-want-to-watch-you-dance?s=r

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It may be a little quick to just roll over for some unknown letter-writer rebutting a claim. These days, I am skeptical about many things, especially claims that are made with unwavering certainty. There have been too many "conspiracy theories" of late that turned out to be spoiler alerts. After two years of Covid alone, we should be hesitant about taking anything at face value, whether it comes from Gregory Green, Joe Biden, Vladimir Putin, or the steno pool known as the mainstream media.

After the stunt Trudeau pulled in Canada, why it is implausible that something similar would occur in a nation like China? Only now is the Hunter Biden laptop being treated as a story instead of being hand-waved as "Russian disinformation." Men winning in female sports events is common and the widespread belief that police target racial minorities, despite volumes of statistical evidence to the contrary, remains active. You'll have to forgive me if I do not quietly accept someone's claim as the last word on a topic.

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Thank you Dr. Loury for sharing the contrary report of a reader and for seeking the truth. In behavioral science, that is known as role-modeling responsible behavior. And that is power that no one can take away. Each of us has that power (even if contacts are few) and even if some of us do not yet know it.

While reading the initial GL and NP exchange in this Mar 30th post; it occurred to me that the China Social Credit Score concept describes USA life in the era of big tech; (a) algorithms and consequences (b) censorship and banning (c) menacing and punishing efforts of Facebook and Instagram directed at low-level nobodies with fewer followers than fingers (d) market and other financial (banks, credit cards) activity restricted for “offenders” or truck drivers (e) Stolen reputation wealth that we 50+ year olds had accumulated; others moreso than me (f) diminished credibility among 2,3,4-decade long friendships (g) infamous FB/Twitter to offender John Doe’s HR boss to “you’re fired” pathway (h) Only those (like me) who have fewer big tech accounts can escape the more severe social consequences.

And I am not convinced the alternate story about China Social Credit is true. I will ask my retired coworker (from Taiwan).

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Hard to know, but The Guardian clearly got it wrong or there is such a system that reduces your privileges based on your social score.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/china-bans-23m-discredited-citizens-from-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system

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I have been guilty of spreading this myth. Thank you for posting this correction.

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This video elucidates more about the "social credit" systems that are in place in China than Mr. Green does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eViswN602_k

Some key points:

2m47s

A manager from Alipay:

"Once a person has a score, all their credit history behaviour in life is recorded and can be evaluated by that number. Our goal is to ensure that if people keep their promises, they can go anywhere in the world. And if people break their promises, they won't be able to move an inch."

11m7s

Chongqing-based journalist, Liu Hu:

"In 2015, Hu lost a defamation case after he accused an official of extortion. He was made to publish an apology and pay a fine, but when the court demanded an additional fee, Hu refused. Then in 2017, he found himself suddenly locked out of society. Under a pilot social credit scheme, he had been blacklisted as dishonest." His ability to travel was severely restricted and his social media accounts were shut down/blocked.

20m56s

"Xinjiang's take on social credit is simple and ruthless. Citizens here are not given a score; instead, they're divided into just 3 categories: Trustworthy, Average, Untrustworthy. If you're Han Chinese, you're deemed trustworthy and granted freedom of movement. If you're Uighur, you're average, with restrictions imposed on travel and religious practices. If you're a Uighur male who breaks those restrictions, you're marked as Untrustworthy, and detained in what the party calls 'education and training centres'."

The whole video is worth watching.

Addendum regarding Liu Hu and what being blacklisted entails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE

Go to 3m48s: "Once you're blacklisted, you can no longer get a bank loan, start a business, buy an apartment or even send your children to a private school."

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Mar 30, 2022·edited Mar 30, 2022

First, at the very least, as confirmed by two interviewees in the video provided by Gregory Green (GG) as well as a detailed wikipedia report, with citations, on the social credit system, restricting citizens travel--point blank refusing to sell them a train or plane ticket as punishment for failing to pay a bill--is an act of totalitarianism. Pure and simple.

Second, per GG there is at least one city (Rongcheng) that does have a social credit system whereby people are punished for bad behavior (article states, "untrustworthy"). Whether or not punishments are actually carried out consistently or not is irrelevant. It's totalitarian. Pure and simple.

I do think that GG wrote a very thoughtful and well written article and it was worth taking the time to read it.

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Wow - thanks Glenn.

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Mar 30, 2022Liked by Nikita Petrov

It is just this type of thoughtful back and forth on complex subjects that is missing from most of what we consume from legacy and social media. It was interesting, informative, revelatory, and provided great service to those consuming it.

I sure hope Substack stays the course. They are an indispensable source of well-sourced information and perspective, and I am grateful to have them as an alternative to the dumpster fire that is the unholy amalgam of legacy and social media.

Thanks, Dr. Loury, for continuing to provide forum for and for giving voice to heterodox perspectives. While I may not always agree with them, I am grateful for the opportunity to hear them and the freedom to respectfully disagree!

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If individuals aren't affected by a social credit system, then how does the CCP shut down their super apps including payments should they fail to comply with mandatory COVID testing during lockdowns? Why are they continuing to shut down entire cities and force people into isolation for weeks?

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deletedMar 30, 2022·edited Mar 30, 2022
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