My guest this week is the Boston College political scientist Shep Melnick. Shep is the author of many books on civil rights law, equality, education, and politics, most recently The Crucible of Desegregation: The Uncertain Search for Educational Equality.
As a school psychologist who has worked with many kids who have been "disciplined" by administrators, here's my take: Justice should be color blind, and based solely on the behavior. If that results in disparate discipline, so be it. The problem is that research suggests that children of color are disciplined more than white kids for the exact same behaviors (links 1 & 2). The bigger issue is the problem that "discipline" as practiced in the large majority of US schools means suspension or expulsion, which leads to children of color receiving fewer hours of education, exacerbating the achievement gap. Schools that rely on external means of controlling behavior (i.e., punishment and/or rewards) do not teach kids to have internal control over their own behavior, and they do not teach them the skills they need to learn to have such control. Based on my experience, a far more effective means of dealing with students' behavioral infractions, without harmful side effects, are the ones that promote internal control, such as the one in the third link, which I've used successfully. But most teachers are not trained in such methods, nor are most school psychologists, most of whom are too overwhelmed with other duties to help teachers even if they do know how.
Glenn, unless I missed something in the past, why don't you do a show on CRT? How it was conceived, what Crenshaw really intended with it, and how it's been turned into the woke racist mess it is today?
In 1976, I was in 7th grade, which is when Chapter 220 busing was implemented in Milwaukee. I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood in a fairly good school district (at the time). PART of that program involved busing low income African Americans students from the inner city to predominantly white middle class schools. The OTHER part was busing white middle class students to the low income inner city schools. The OTHER part of the program is always excluded from any discussion when analyzing the problems and effects of desegregation. The only thing you hear about is white flight, but the white flight wasn’t because the students who were coming into the school were black, it was because parents didn’t want their children bused across the city to the inner city failing schools. I was not on the list to be bused across town so we stayed where we were.
I agree that working and living around people with different backgrounds may improve race relations. I made some pretty good friends (as much as you can when you live in different parts of the city). However forcing anyone to integrate was and is a bad idea.
The teachers and school at large was completely ill-equipped to handle the problems that came along with a very large portion of the students coming from the tough streets of the inner city. It wasn’t because of their race, it was because of where they grew up.
Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who lives in those conditions. Nobody deserves to live in that environment. But how naive is it to think you can change the entire composition of a school, adding a ton of street wise tough kids, drugs and violence, without being prepared. There were fights in the classroom, teachers beaten up, students stabbed in the parking lot, etc., etc.
It took years to end it but Milwaukee Public Schools have still not recovered from Chapter 220.
On CRT, the actual comment was that people pushing back on CRT don’t know what they are doing.
CRT should not be taught as dogma. The people protesting CRT have no understanding of CRT. The opponents distort some concepts of CRT.
Instead of banning the teaching, teach and discuss points of debate. Milnick criticizes the Claremont Institute, Christopher Rufo, James Lindsay POV and points out as democracy grows more debate about freedoms is natural.
It was actuall great to have a rational person as a guest on Glenn’s show.
A few (maybe ten) years ago, Bill Russell and Jim Brown were at a conference on race in sports. Bill Russell said that gays were treated now (10 years ago) the same way that Blacks were treated in his time, and Jim Brown agreed with him. Russell gave some comments that applied now to gays and to Blacks years before. If I can remember, his examples were:
1. I don't mind having them on the team, but others would
Sports, prisons, and locker rooms are where the distinction between sex and gender really matter. Bathrooms are where Republicans will lose this issue. That is the political equivalent of banning CRT in schools as opposed to criticizing CRT.
There was once a master’s student presenting a thesis on Title IX. It was basically the history of, and why it is worth supporting. I told her/asked her about Lia Thomas as a transgender swimmer who is breaking women’s swimming records. One side says she’s Jackie Robinson and is breaking boundaries. The other side says she is a man gaming the system in order to cheat. Neither side sound especially honest. Do you have an opinion? Her response was, “no.”
As a school psychologist who has worked with many kids who have been "disciplined" by administrators, here's my take: Justice should be color blind, and based solely on the behavior. If that results in disparate discipline, so be it. The problem is that research suggests that children of color are disciplined more than white kids for the exact same behaviors (links 1 & 2). The bigger issue is the problem that "discipline" as practiced in the large majority of US schools means suspension or expulsion, which leads to children of color receiving fewer hours of education, exacerbating the achievement gap. Schools that rely on external means of controlling behavior (i.e., punishment and/or rewards) do not teach kids to have internal control over their own behavior, and they do not teach them the skills they need to learn to have such control. Based on my experience, a far more effective means of dealing with students' behavioral infractions, without harmful side effects, are the ones that promote internal control, such as the one in the third link, which I've used successfully. But most teachers are not trained in such methods, nor are most school psychologists, most of whom are too overwhelmed with other duties to help teachers even if they do know how.
https://www.ctpublic.org/news/2023-01-26/yale-study-shows-black-boys-are-more-likely-to-be-disciplined-than-their-white-classmates
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-why-really-are-so-many-black-kids-suspended/2021/08
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/schools-behavior-discipline-collaborative-proactive-solutions-ross-greene/
Glenn, unless I missed something in the past, why don't you do a show on CRT? How it was conceived, what Crenshaw really intended with it, and how it's been turned into the woke racist mess it is today?
Did this episode disappear from Apple Podcasts for anybody else?
In 1976, I was in 7th grade, which is when Chapter 220 busing was implemented in Milwaukee. I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood in a fairly good school district (at the time). PART of that program involved busing low income African Americans students from the inner city to predominantly white middle class schools. The OTHER part was busing white middle class students to the low income inner city schools. The OTHER part of the program is always excluded from any discussion when analyzing the problems and effects of desegregation. The only thing you hear about is white flight, but the white flight wasn’t because the students who were coming into the school were black, it was because parents didn’t want their children bused across the city to the inner city failing schools. I was not on the list to be bused across town so we stayed where we were.
I agree that working and living around people with different backgrounds may improve race relations. I made some pretty good friends (as much as you can when you live in different parts of the city). However forcing anyone to integrate was and is a bad idea.
The teachers and school at large was completely ill-equipped to handle the problems that came along with a very large portion of the students coming from the tough streets of the inner city. It wasn’t because of their race, it was because of where they grew up.
Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who lives in those conditions. Nobody deserves to live in that environment. But how naive is it to think you can change the entire composition of a school, adding a ton of street wise tough kids, drugs and violence, without being prepared. There were fights in the classroom, teachers beaten up, students stabbed in the parking lot, etc., etc.
It took years to end it but Milwaukee Public Schools have still not recovered from Chapter 220.
On CRT, the actual comment was that people pushing back on CRT don’t know what they are doing.
CRT should not be taught as dogma. The people protesting CRT have no understanding of CRT. The opponents distort some concepts of CRT.
Instead of banning the teaching, teach and discuss points of debate. Milnick criticizes the Claremont Institute, Christopher Rufo, James Lindsay POV and points out as democracy grows more debate about freedoms is natural.
It was actuall great to have a rational person as a guest on Glenn’s show.
A few (maybe ten) years ago, Bill Russell and Jim Brown were at a conference on race in sports. Bill Russell said that gays were treated now (10 years ago) the same way that Blacks were treated in his time, and Jim Brown agreed with him. Russell gave some comments that applied now to gays and to Blacks years before. If I can remember, his examples were:
1. I don't mind having them on the team, but others would
2. I don't want more than one on the team
there were 2 or 3 other statements, and finally
3. I don't want to shower with them
Sports, prisons, and locker rooms are where the distinction between sex and gender really matter. Bathrooms are where Republicans will lose this issue. That is the political equivalent of banning CRT in schools as opposed to criticizing CRT.
There was once a master’s student presenting a thesis on Title IX. It was basically the history of, and why it is worth supporting. I told her/asked her about Lia Thomas as a transgender swimmer who is breaking women’s swimming records. One side says she’s Jackie Robinson and is breaking boundaries. The other side says she is a man gaming the system in order to cheat. Neither side sound especially honest. Do you have an opinion? Her response was, “no.”