As a school psychologist who has worked with many kids who have been "disciplined" by administrators, here's my take: Justice should be color blind, and based solely on the behavior. If that results in disparate discipline, so be it. The problem is that research suggests that children of color are disciplined more than white kids for the exact same behaviors (links 1 & 2). The bigger issue is the problem that "discipline" as practiced in the large majority of US schools means suspension or expulsion, which leads to children of color receiving fewer hours of education, exacerbating the achievement gap. Schools that rely on external means of controlling behavior (i.e., punishment and/or rewards) do not teach kids to have internal control over their own behavior, and they do not teach them the skills they need to learn to have such control. Based on my experience, a far more effective means of dealing with students' behavioral infractions, without harmful side effects, are the ones that promote internal control, such as the one in the third link, which I've used successfully. But most teachers are not trained in such methods, nor are most school psychologists, most of whom are too overwhelmed with other duties to help teachers even if they do know how.
Glenn, unless I missed something in the past, why don't you do a show on CRT? How it was conceived, what Crenshaw really intended with it, and how it's been turned into the woke racist mess it is today?
In 1976, I was in 7th grade, which is when Chapter 220 busing was implemented in Milwaukee. I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood in a fairly good school district (at the time). PART of that program involved busing low income African Americans students from the inner city to predominantly white middle class schools. The OTHER part was busing white middle class students to the low income inner city schools. The OTHER part of the program is always excluded from any discussion when analyzing the problems and effects of desegregation. The only thing you hear about is white flight, but the white flight wasn’t because the students who were coming into the school were black, it was because parents didn’t want their children bused across the city to the inner city failing schools. I was not on the list to be bused across town so we stayed where we were.
I agree that working and living around people with different backgrounds may improve race relations. I made some pretty good friends (as much as you can when you live in different parts of the city). However forcing anyone to integrate was and is a bad idea.
The teachers and school at large was completely ill-equipped to handle the problems that came along with a very large portion of the students coming from the tough streets of the inner city. It wasn’t because of their race, it was because of where they grew up.
Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who lives in those conditions. Nobody deserves to live in that environment. But how naive is it to think you can change the entire composition of a school, adding a ton of street wise tough kids, drugs and violence, without being prepared. There were fights in the classroom, teachers beaten up, students stabbed in the parking lot, etc., etc.
It took years to end it but Milwaukee Public Schools have still not recovered from Chapter 220.
I was in the same situation as a sixth grader in Orlando, when the city was being dragged kicking and screaming into education equality. My parents didn't object to black kids bused to our schools, but they didn't want me (and later, my brother) bussed to the crap schools on the other side of town - and Mom knew what they were like because she and Dad were friendly with a middle class black couple in town, and Lyla had told her what the black schools were like.
In retrospect, Mom's & her best friend's position was a bit naive, but they couldn't have realized at the time that educationally impoverished black kids would never have cut it at my school (which, being a school in the South, wasn't superlative even for white kids) but yeah, they would have gotten bullied out the door I think. I don't remember my classmates being particularly racist but our 'hoods were so white literally the only black people they saw were garbagemen.
Mom's radical solution was, "Integrate the neighbourhoods first." Yeah, that went over like a turd in a punch bowl ;)
At this point, education has gotten so bad in America I think the problem isn't, "How to give black kids a good education" but "how to give American kids a good education". Are they even learning anything worthwhile anymore or is it all CRT, howtuhgotrans, how to give a blowjob, etc.?
I'd be curious to know how many white local politicians & policy makers kids got bused to the inner city schools and weren't bullied, assimilated into that culture, made friends or made any positive difference.
On CRT, the actual comment was that people pushing back on CRT don’t know what they are doing.
CRT should not be taught as dogma. The people protesting CRT have no understanding of CRT. The opponents distort some concepts of CRT.
Instead of banning the teaching, teach and discuss points of debate. Milnick criticizes the Claremont Institute, Christopher Rufo, James Lindsay POV and points out as democracy grows more debate about freedoms is natural.
It was actuall great to have a rational person as a guest on Glenn’s show.
A few (maybe ten) years ago, Bill Russell and Jim Brown were at a conference on race in sports. Bill Russell said that gays were treated now (10 years ago) the same way that Blacks were treated in his time, and Jim Brown agreed with him. Russell gave some comments that applied now to gays and to Blacks years before. If I can remember, his examples were:
1. I don't mind having them on the team, but others would
I looked for info on that conference, and I was not able to find it, but I found a video on a similar conference. This whole video is great; it's as good as watching Glenn. At the 45 minute mark, they discuss gay athletes. Bill Russell said that if a gay player joined his team, he would have one question: are you good enough to play? Check out this wonderful video. Glenn, you will appreciate their comments on economic development.
Sports, prisons, and locker rooms are where the distinction between sex and gender really matter. Bathrooms are where Republicans will lose this issue. That is the political equivalent of banning CRT in schools as opposed to criticizing CRT.
There was once a master’s student presenting a thesis on Title IX. It was basically the history of, and why it is worth supporting. I told her/asked her about Lia Thomas as a transgender swimmer who is breaking women’s swimming records. One side says she’s Jackie Robinson and is breaking boundaries. The other side says she is a man gaming the system in order to cheat. Neither side sound especially honest. Do you have an opinion? Her response was, “no.”
Hi Maci, in general I agree with you about bathrooms. In specific, as a society there are still some issues to resolve about it. For example, in schools: at what point in transition is it the right call to switch? It recently came to my attention that there was a trans boy encouraged to socially transition and use the boys restroom by the school but was then bullied and assaulted (part of a bigger story), but that doesn’t sit well with me. A friend was telling me of a similar situation (daily assaults from the boys in the restroom) - when kids have known you as “ a boy” or “a girl” and suddenly you switch (you may not present especially different on top of it)… that is rough. As you probably know the degree of privacy is varied on the restroom, so that is definitely something to fix. And lastly, data shows women and girls are protected from predators better by single sex bathrooms than by unisex bathrooms, at least in part by the convention that says men don’t belong in the restrooms. I’m not advocating for ID checks or anything, but there used to be a lot of self policing in the women’s restrooms… comments about a boy being too old (usually boys stop using women’s restrooms at around five, but sometimes later at busy places like an airport if there’s only mom) or less desirably of a butch lesbian who doesn’t read as female enough. I don’t think that anything is too big to overcome, but it does require people openly and honestly talking about trade-offs.
Yeah...no assaults in the bathroom please...I don’t know what the best course is with kids and schools as far as transition. This one is too hard/big for me.
Maci, I’m curious what you think… I’m inclined to think transition shouldn’t happe until some age, 18? 21? 25? I don’t know. But until then, exploration of identity should be accepted and maybe even normalized. I feel like if that was the social norm, it could accommodate free expression and help for kids with gender dysphoria while not putting developing people in such new and unexplored situations. I could be wrong, but I feel like being a teen in the 90s was a lot more flexible about these things than it is now. Some will say trans is a tiny population, but amongst the teens it can be upwards of 20%. Not that they are all trying to change restrooms and dressing rooms, or even changing how they present that much. But it seems like we do need some kind of societal consensus… what do you think?
I think 20% is a really exaggerated number. I think teens follow trends, and trans is trending. Teens are trans the same way suburban white guys who listen to rap are black. Problem is this is what has political power because real trans is such a tiny minority.
Generally agree with what you are saying. There are some exceptions about childhood transition, but it is the exception not the norm.
Oh! I agree. Based on the experience I have with my oldest, 20% is depending on the group, pretty common. Depending on what you call transitioning. My oldest (16) had a friend who changed to a boy name and uses “he/him” pronouns… no change in hair or dress, even continued wearing eye make up. There are a lot of new names and pronouns, but that’s it. If you ask, they will “identify” as some trans identity… I feel bad for the teachers, because it is a lot to keep track of. When I argued with my oldest that probably most of her friends “aren’t really going to turn out to be trans” the bitter answer was “so which of my friends is lying?!” That doesn’t sound like open exploration to me. Maybe I’m just old. I do know a child that transitioned at 3. The child was insistent since speaking that he was a boy. He is about 12 now, I’m curious what will happen now. It seems like it would be just as jarring if suddenly the kid you have known as a boy is going through girl puberty. I feel nothing but compassion, it just seems like we really need a new consensus. I can see here people personally being a jerk to you, when you are kindly engaging in good faith, so I don’t imagine this conflict is healthy for developing young people just trying to figure stuff out. But what to do about it…
Sorry Maci, but no. Girls & women get to have their own bathrooms too. Girls shouldn't have to worry about dealing with their periods in the presence of boys and men.
Of course...the truth comes out...the real reason I’m in the ladies’ is so I can peek over the stalls and watch young girls remove and insert tampons.
This is where the social definition and function of the label of boys and men becomes complicated. What about Jamie Lee Curtis? She’s phenotypically male, doesn’t have a period, needed vaginal extenders in order to make love. Should she use the mens, under the logic from your argument, the answer is yes. Which is exactly why this is so silly.
As if what's going on in a guy's head is all that matters. (And why assume young girls are necessarily using tampons?) No Maci, the problem here is not that we assume you're a perv who wants to peep in on little girls changing their pads. It's that male bodies do not belong in female-only spaces. Because many of us are just not comfortable with them there, even the ones who are genuine sweethearts. And whatever drugs you use, whatever surgeries you've had, and whatever clothes you put on, you still and always will have a male body.
"jamie lee curtis exists therefore an unambiguous man like myself should use the women's" is not the argument you think it is.
and in your list you forgot children. children and how we relate to them is where the distinction between sex and "gender" matter. people who engage in "trans" behavior should have no form of communication with children whatsoever
You say I’m a man, my government issue ID says “F.” Not “TW” just “F.” Which one is right I wonder. I take the pills, I wear the clothes, this is already a pretty ambiguous unambiguity.
Women have periods therefore they deserve special status and attention isn’t the argument you think it is snowflake.
Trans women are pretending to be women. They are masquerading as women. They are and will always be male regardless of hormone meds and surgeries. Just because the government changes an M to an F does not change one's sex.
In some ladies rooms at times, there are women who are in partial stages of undress in the sink area- they spilled something on their blouse, the stalls are full and they're changing clothes. I have a strong preference that only actual women use public women's bathrooms, but there is no practical way to prevent trans women from using ladies rooms and once they outwardly look more female than male it may not be safe for them to go into a men's room so we women are stuck with trans women using ladies rooms.
when a person who is declared legally dead reemerges, do you become incredulous as to whether they are actually alive? do you think the person walking before you is a zombie? or do you recognize a legal fiction for what it is?
do you really think that the fact that society is idiotic in indulging your demands is going to sway my view?
Do you think a false equivalence and the fact that you’ve seen Night of the Living Dead is going to sway mine? Still using the bathroom I feel most comfortable in, sorry not sorry. You’re the one demanding I change my behavior. My mind, and the idiotic society’s is the one that must change.
Several mediocre transgender athletes have gone to the head of standings by playing on women's teams. This seems unfair, and it seems like a way to undermine women's sports. Many gay people have also said that it's unfair.
As a school psychologist who has worked with many kids who have been "disciplined" by administrators, here's my take: Justice should be color blind, and based solely on the behavior. If that results in disparate discipline, so be it. The problem is that research suggests that children of color are disciplined more than white kids for the exact same behaviors (links 1 & 2). The bigger issue is the problem that "discipline" as practiced in the large majority of US schools means suspension or expulsion, which leads to children of color receiving fewer hours of education, exacerbating the achievement gap. Schools that rely on external means of controlling behavior (i.e., punishment and/or rewards) do not teach kids to have internal control over their own behavior, and they do not teach them the skills they need to learn to have such control. Based on my experience, a far more effective means of dealing with students' behavioral infractions, without harmful side effects, are the ones that promote internal control, such as the one in the third link, which I've used successfully. But most teachers are not trained in such methods, nor are most school psychologists, most of whom are too overwhelmed with other duties to help teachers even if they do know how.
https://www.ctpublic.org/news/2023-01-26/yale-study-shows-black-boys-are-more-likely-to-be-disciplined-than-their-white-classmates
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-why-really-are-so-many-black-kids-suspended/2021/08
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/schools-behavior-discipline-collaborative-proactive-solutions-ross-greene/
Glenn, unless I missed something in the past, why don't you do a show on CRT? How it was conceived, what Crenshaw really intended with it, and how it's been turned into the woke racist mess it is today?
Coleman Hughes has done a few shows about it, or at least, mostly about it, including his latest one.
Thanks, I'll look for it on YouTube.
Did this episode disappear from Apple Podcasts for anybody else?
In 1976, I was in 7th grade, which is when Chapter 220 busing was implemented in Milwaukee. I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood in a fairly good school district (at the time). PART of that program involved busing low income African Americans students from the inner city to predominantly white middle class schools. The OTHER part was busing white middle class students to the low income inner city schools. The OTHER part of the program is always excluded from any discussion when analyzing the problems and effects of desegregation. The only thing you hear about is white flight, but the white flight wasn’t because the students who were coming into the school were black, it was because parents didn’t want their children bused across the city to the inner city failing schools. I was not on the list to be bused across town so we stayed where we were.
I agree that working and living around people with different backgrounds may improve race relations. I made some pretty good friends (as much as you can when you live in different parts of the city). However forcing anyone to integrate was and is a bad idea.
The teachers and school at large was completely ill-equipped to handle the problems that came along with a very large portion of the students coming from the tough streets of the inner city. It wasn’t because of their race, it was because of where they grew up.
Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who lives in those conditions. Nobody deserves to live in that environment. But how naive is it to think you can change the entire composition of a school, adding a ton of street wise tough kids, drugs and violence, without being prepared. There were fights in the classroom, teachers beaten up, students stabbed in the parking lot, etc., etc.
It took years to end it but Milwaukee Public Schools have still not recovered from Chapter 220.
I was in the same situation as a sixth grader in Orlando, when the city was being dragged kicking and screaming into education equality. My parents didn't object to black kids bused to our schools, but they didn't want me (and later, my brother) bussed to the crap schools on the other side of town - and Mom knew what they were like because she and Dad were friendly with a middle class black couple in town, and Lyla had told her what the black schools were like.
In retrospect, Mom's & her best friend's position was a bit naive, but they couldn't have realized at the time that educationally impoverished black kids would never have cut it at my school (which, being a school in the South, wasn't superlative even for white kids) but yeah, they would have gotten bullied out the door I think. I don't remember my classmates being particularly racist but our 'hoods were so white literally the only black people they saw were garbagemen.
Mom's radical solution was, "Integrate the neighbourhoods first." Yeah, that went over like a turd in a punch bowl ;)
At this point, education has gotten so bad in America I think the problem isn't, "How to give black kids a good education" but "how to give American kids a good education". Are they even learning anything worthwhile anymore or is it all CRT, howtuhgotrans, how to give a blowjob, etc.?
I'd be curious to know how many white local politicians & policy makers kids got bused to the inner city schools and weren't bullied, assimilated into that culture, made friends or made any positive difference.
On CRT, the actual comment was that people pushing back on CRT don’t know what they are doing.
CRT should not be taught as dogma. The people protesting CRT have no understanding of CRT. The opponents distort some concepts of CRT.
Instead of banning the teaching, teach and discuss points of debate. Milnick criticizes the Claremont Institute, Christopher Rufo, James Lindsay POV and points out as democracy grows more debate about freedoms is natural.
It was actuall great to have a rational person as a guest on Glenn’s show.
A few (maybe ten) years ago, Bill Russell and Jim Brown were at a conference on race in sports. Bill Russell said that gays were treated now (10 years ago) the same way that Blacks were treated in his time, and Jim Brown agreed with him. Russell gave some comments that applied now to gays and to Blacks years before. If I can remember, his examples were:
1. I don't mind having them on the team, but others would
2. I don't want more than one on the team
there were 2 or 3 other statements, and finally
3. I don't want to shower with them
I looked for info on that conference, and I was not able to find it, but I found a video on a similar conference. This whole video is great; it's as good as watching Glenn. At the 45 minute mark, they discuss gay athletes. Bill Russell said that if a gay player joined his team, he would have one question: are you good enough to play? Check out this wonderful video. Glenn, you will appreciate their comments on economic development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOedH2DkX98
Sports, prisons, and locker rooms are where the distinction between sex and gender really matter. Bathrooms are where Republicans will lose this issue. That is the political equivalent of banning CRT in schools as opposed to criticizing CRT.
There was once a master’s student presenting a thesis on Title IX. It was basically the history of, and why it is worth supporting. I told her/asked her about Lia Thomas as a transgender swimmer who is breaking women’s swimming records. One side says she’s Jackie Robinson and is breaking boundaries. The other side says she is a man gaming the system in order to cheat. Neither side sound especially honest. Do you have an opinion? Her response was, “no.”
Hi Maci, in general I agree with you about bathrooms. In specific, as a society there are still some issues to resolve about it. For example, in schools: at what point in transition is it the right call to switch? It recently came to my attention that there was a trans boy encouraged to socially transition and use the boys restroom by the school but was then bullied and assaulted (part of a bigger story), but that doesn’t sit well with me. A friend was telling me of a similar situation (daily assaults from the boys in the restroom) - when kids have known you as “ a boy” or “a girl” and suddenly you switch (you may not present especially different on top of it)… that is rough. As you probably know the degree of privacy is varied on the restroom, so that is definitely something to fix. And lastly, data shows women and girls are protected from predators better by single sex bathrooms than by unisex bathrooms, at least in part by the convention that says men don’t belong in the restrooms. I’m not advocating for ID checks or anything, but there used to be a lot of self policing in the women’s restrooms… comments about a boy being too old (usually boys stop using women’s restrooms at around five, but sometimes later at busy places like an airport if there’s only mom) or less desirably of a butch lesbian who doesn’t read as female enough. I don’t think that anything is too big to overcome, but it does require people openly and honestly talking about trade-offs.
Yeah...no assaults in the bathroom please...I don’t know what the best course is with kids and schools as far as transition. This one is too hard/big for me.
Maci, I’m curious what you think… I’m inclined to think transition shouldn’t happe until some age, 18? 21? 25? I don’t know. But until then, exploration of identity should be accepted and maybe even normalized. I feel like if that was the social norm, it could accommodate free expression and help for kids with gender dysphoria while not putting developing people in such new and unexplored situations. I could be wrong, but I feel like being a teen in the 90s was a lot more flexible about these things than it is now. Some will say trans is a tiny population, but amongst the teens it can be upwards of 20%. Not that they are all trying to change restrooms and dressing rooms, or even changing how they present that much. But it seems like we do need some kind of societal consensus… what do you think?
I think 20% is a really exaggerated number. I think teens follow trends, and trans is trending. Teens are trans the same way suburban white guys who listen to rap are black. Problem is this is what has political power because real trans is such a tiny minority.
Generally agree with what you are saying. There are some exceptions about childhood transition, but it is the exception not the norm.
Oh! I agree. Based on the experience I have with my oldest, 20% is depending on the group, pretty common. Depending on what you call transitioning. My oldest (16) had a friend who changed to a boy name and uses “he/him” pronouns… no change in hair or dress, even continued wearing eye make up. There are a lot of new names and pronouns, but that’s it. If you ask, they will “identify” as some trans identity… I feel bad for the teachers, because it is a lot to keep track of. When I argued with my oldest that probably most of her friends “aren’t really going to turn out to be trans” the bitter answer was “so which of my friends is lying?!” That doesn’t sound like open exploration to me. Maybe I’m just old. I do know a child that transitioned at 3. The child was insistent since speaking that he was a boy. He is about 12 now, I’m curious what will happen now. It seems like it would be just as jarring if suddenly the kid you have known as a boy is going through girl puberty. I feel nothing but compassion, it just seems like we really need a new consensus. I can see here people personally being a jerk to you, when you are kindly engaging in good faith, so I don’t imagine this conflict is healthy for developing young people just trying to figure stuff out. But what to do about it…
Its only been my life since 2013, and I’m 31 now.
Sorry Maci, but no. Girls & women get to have their own bathrooms too. Girls shouldn't have to worry about dealing with their periods in the presence of boys and men.
Of course...the truth comes out...the real reason I’m in the ladies’ is so I can peek over the stalls and watch young girls remove and insert tampons.
This is where the social definition and function of the label of boys and men becomes complicated. What about Jamie Lee Curtis? She’s phenotypically male, doesn’t have a period, needed vaginal extenders in order to make love. Should she use the mens, under the logic from your argument, the answer is yes. Which is exactly why this is so silly.
As if what's going on in a guy's head is all that matters. (And why assume young girls are necessarily using tampons?) No Maci, the problem here is not that we assume you're a perv who wants to peep in on little girls changing their pads. It's that male bodies do not belong in female-only spaces. Because many of us are just not comfortable with them there, even the ones who are genuine sweethearts. And whatever drugs you use, whatever surgeries you've had, and whatever clothes you put on, you still and always will have a male body.
In your opinion.
No. Fact.
The girls swimming against Lia Thomas use tampons because pool pads are gross. That’s a fact.
"jamie lee curtis exists therefore an unambiguous man like myself should use the women's" is not the argument you think it is.
and in your list you forgot children. children and how we relate to them is where the distinction between sex and "gender" matter. people who engage in "trans" behavior should have no form of communication with children whatsoever
You say I’m a man, my government issue ID says “F.” Not “TW” just “F.” Which one is right I wonder. I take the pills, I wear the clothes, this is already a pretty ambiguous unambiguity.
Women have periods therefore they deserve special status and attention isn’t the argument you think it is snowflake.
Trans women are pretending to be women. They are masquerading as women. They are and will always be male regardless of hormone meds and surgeries. Just because the government changes an M to an F does not change one's sex.
In some ladies rooms at times, there are women who are in partial stages of undress in the sink area- they spilled something on their blouse, the stalls are full and they're changing clothes. I have a strong preference that only actual women use public women's bathrooms, but there is no practical way to prevent trans women from using ladies rooms and once they outwardly look more female than male it may not be safe for them to go into a men's room so we women are stuck with trans women using ladies rooms.
when a person who is declared legally dead reemerges, do you become incredulous as to whether they are actually alive? do you think the person walking before you is a zombie? or do you recognize a legal fiction for what it is?
do you really think that the fact that society is idiotic in indulging your demands is going to sway my view?
All you can do is try. The profoundly mistaken often reveal themselves simply by extending the conversation.
Do you think a false equivalence and the fact that you’ve seen Night of the Living Dead is going to sway mine? Still using the bathroom I feel most comfortable in, sorry not sorry. You’re the one demanding I change my behavior. My mind, and the idiotic society’s is the one that must change.
Several mediocre transgender athletes have gone to the head of standings by playing on women's teams. This seems unfair, and it seems like a way to undermine women's sports. Many gay people have also said that it's unfair.
For what it’s worth, I agree.
...and so does Caitlyn Jenner btw...we’re not supposed to like her because she’s a conservative tho...